NBA Finals - Cleveland vs Golden State

[Jaric]

Tommy considering Dwight Freeney a HOF'er makes me happy.

 

[mikiemo83]

Fine. Is Peyton Manning one of the best players in NFL History? The answer to that is yes. Can you put his numbers up against anyone else who's ever played the position? Yes. Did he win championships? Yes.

The difference between James and Manning is that Manning was surrounded by hall of famers for the bulk of his career. Who's the hall of famer that James was surrounded with? Maybe Dwyane Wade? Maybe Kyrie Irving someday? There's no Marvin "Handcannon" Harrison around, no Edgerrin James, no Dwight Freeney.

Did Jordan have that? Yep, Scottie Pippen. The Bulls won 57 games and the title in 1992 with Jordan, and 55 games and the conference championships without him.

One more thing, James won titles against the Spurs and Warriors. Manning won titles against the Bears and Panthers. There's a difference there as well.

You don't like that he says "I" too much. K. That doesn't diminish from the actual accomplishments and body of work.

I never said he was not great, I just do not think he is the greatest ever.


Top 10? Most likely.

top 20? without a doubt.

I think guys like Russell would be fine in todays game. I think he could guard Durant or LeBron. I also think his body type would be more like what you see today.

Russell, Chamberlain, Bird, Magic, Jordan, Lew Abdul Jabbar,, Oscar Robertson, Kobe, Duncan, West, Hakeen, Moses Malone

I could pick 5 better in my opinion I am not the biggest Kareem fan.

I mean No one played with less than Moses Malone did for a Houston.

---------- Post added at 04:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:31 PM ----------

Tommy considering Dwight Freeney a HOF'er makes me happy.

A heat of the moment slip-up

 

[Patriots71]

Fine. Is Peyton Manning one of the best players in NFL History? The answer to that is yes. Can you put his numbers up against anyone else who's ever played the position? Yes. Did he win championships? Yes.

The difference between James and Manning is that Manning was surrounded by hall of famers for the bulk of his career. Who's the hall of famer that James was surrounded with? Maybe Dwyane Wade? Maybe Kyrie Irving someday? There's no Marvin "Handcannon" Harrison around, no Edgerrin James, no Dwight Freeney.

Did Jordan have that? Yep, Scottie Pippen. The Bulls won 57 games and the title in 1992 with Jordan, and 55 games and the conference championships without him.

One more thing, James won titles against the Spurs and Warriors. Manning won titles against the Bears and Panthers. There's a difference there as well.

You don't like that he says "I" too much. K. That doesn't diminish from the actual accomplishments and body of work.

I just never saw another player on any Jordan team have to score 40 for them to win. Irving does that. Not saying He is Manning, but players are graded on number of titles regardless if we like it or not.

 

[Patriots71]

As currently constructed Cleveland has limited cap space. Love is going to be gone. Korver will probably be gone. Jefferson will probably be gone or retire. Kyrie is going to need to get paid. Cleveland was built with the a 3 year shelf-life in mind. They stand to look significantly different next year.

Cle has zero space, they were the most paid team in the league last year, way higher than anyone else.

 

[TommyD420]

Tommy considering Dwight Freeney a HOF'er makes me happy.

Dwight Freeney was the most dominant pass-rusher in the league for a decade, and was an innovator perfecting the spin move. I have no problem calling him a hall-of-famer.

I never said he was not great, I just do not think he is the greatest ever.


Top 10? Most likely.

top 20? without a doubt.

I think guys like Russell would be fine in todays game. I think he could guard Durant or LeBron. I also think his body type would be more like what you see today.

Russell, Chamberlain, Bird, Magic, Jordan, Lew Abdul Jabbar,, Oscar Robertson, Kobe, Duncan, West, Hakeen, Moses Malone

I could pick 5 better in my opinion I am not the biggest Kareem fan.

I mean No one played with less than Moses Malone did for a Houston.

---------- Post added at 04:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:31 PM ----------



A heat of the moment slip-up

Lebron James might not be the best ever (I wouldn't say he is), but he's sure as hell in the conversation.

Moses Malone demanded a trade to Philly to play on a Super Team and win a championship. Tarnished Legacy.

Also I'd argue that Russell would be too small to play today, Durant and James would destroy him off the dribble. Russell's the best post defender possibly ever, but trying to check Durant of a pick-and-roll? I dunno...

I just never saw another player on any Jordan team have to score 40 for them to win. Irving does that. Not saying He is Manning, but players are graded on number of titles regardless if we like it or not.

So Lebron James has never won a playoff game unless someone else scores 40?

You do realize the last two league MVPs were on the other team, right? It's not like he was playing Memphis or Utah or something. The Warriors might be the best team ever assembled. 96 Bulls, maybe, 86 Celtics maybe (I actually like the Celtics over the Bulls in that case, because the Celtics roll out Bird at 6'9"+ at the 3, lot of height, and like, most of them play defense. Not Bird so much, but the rest. Celtics bench is better than the Bulls bench as well). You've got 2 league MVPs, the best wing scorer in the league, the best wing defender, the best shooter in the game, the second-best shooter in the game, the third-best shooter in the game, the best rat, and the best sixth man. And the best seventh man, if you wanted to go that far.

And they're all under 30. (Not Iguodala, but the starting 5)

Unless something drastic happens, they're going to go to three or four more finals in a row, at least.

 

[mikiemo83]

Dwight Freeney was the most dominant pass-rusher in the league for a decade, and was an innovator perfecting the spin move. I have no problem calling him a hall-of-famer.



Lebron James might not be the best ever (I wouldn't say he is), but he's sure as hell in the conversation.

Moses Malone demanded a trade to Philly to play on a Super Team and win a championship. Tarnished Legacy.

Also I'd argue that Russell would be too small to play today, Durant and James would destroy him off the dribble. Russell's the best post defender possibly ever, but trying to check Durant of a pick-and-roll? I dunno...



So Lebron James has never won a playoff game unless someone else scores 40?

You do realize the last two league MVPs were on the other team, right? It's not like he was playing Memphis or Utah or something. The Warriors might be the best team ever assembled. 96 Bulls, maybe, 86 Celtics maybe (I actually like the Celtics over the Bulls in that case, because the Celtics roll out Bird at 6'9"+ at the 3, lot of height, and like, most of them play defense. Not Bird so much, but the rest. Celtics bench is better than the Bulls bench as well). You've got 2 league MVPs, the best wing scorer in the league, the best wing defender, the best shooter in the game, the second-best shooter in the game, the third-best shooter in the game, the best rat, and the best sixth man. And the best seventh man, if you wanted to go that far.

And they're all under 30. (Not Iguodala, but the starting 5)

Unless something drastic happens, they're going to go to three or four more finals in a row, at least.

ego, can it remain in check for the good of the team? that is their only opponent at this point.

 

[PatriotInIndy]

I never said he was not great, I just do not think he is the greatest ever.


Top 10? Most likely.

top 20? without a doubt.

I think guys like Russell would be fine in todays game. I think he could guard Durant or LeBron. I also think his body type would be more like what you see today.

Russell, Chamberlain, Bird, Magic, Jordan, Lew Abdul Jabbar,, Oscar Robertson, Kobe, Duncan, West, Hakeen, Moses Malone

I could pick 5 better in my opinion I am not the biggest Kareem fan.

I mean No one played with less than Moses Malone did for a Houston.

---------- Post added at 04:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:31 PM ----------



A heat of the moment slip-up

Allen Iverson played with less. Who was the 2nd best option for offense on his best team? Aaron McKie or Theo Ratliff. Guys who averaged 7.4 PPG and 7.2 PPG for their careers.

Iverson basically dragged a group of corpses to the Finals against the Lakers and somehow won a game against a ridiculously good Lakers team. Even with Tyronn Lue trying to rip his jersey off on every damn possession.

 

[mikiemo83]

Allen Iverson played with less. Who was the 2nd best option for offense on his best team? Aaron McKie or Theo Ratliff. Guys who averaged 7.4 PPG and 7.2 PPG for their careers.

Iverson basically dragged a group of corpses to the Finals against the Lakers and somehow won a game against a ridiculously good Lakers team. Even with Tyronn Lue trying to rip his jersey off on every damn possession.

that team was so bad I forgot Iverson made the finals.

Malones Rockets had a losing record the year they made the finals, he carried that team to the match up with Bird and the now famous - "Moses eats Bird shit" sign

Murphy and Reid were ok but Billy Paulz? God I hated that man.

 

[PatriotInIndy]

that team was so bad I forgot Iverson made the finals.

Malones Rockets had a losing record the year they made the finals, he carried that team to the match up with Bird and the now famous - "Moses eats Bird shit" sign

Murphy and Reid were ok but Billy Paulz? God I hated that man.

It was a miracle that either of them could drag their teams to the NBA Finals.

Speaking of hated players. I still hate Eric Snow. Part of that stems from me being a Michigan fan and him playing for MSU. The other part is that every team left him wide open from 15-18 feet because of Iverson. That chump still barely shot better than 40% from the field. The 76ers should have been charged with crimes against basketball for the cast they put around AI.

 

[mikiemo83]

It was a miracle that either of them could drag their teams to the NBA Finals.

Speaking of hated players. I still hate Eric Snow. Part of that stems from me being a Michigan fan and him playing for MSU. The other part is that every team left him wide open from 15-18 feet because of Iverson. That chump still barely shot better than 40% from the field. The 76ers should have been charged with crimes against basketball for the cast they put around AI.

Has the 76ers roster changed much since then? other than No Iverson, the roster is still a bunch of nothing.

except for Embiid and you wonder if he is good or the only option on a poop team.

 

[PatriotInIndy]

Has the 76ers roster changed much since then? other than No Iverson, the roster is still a bunch of nothing.

except for Embiid and you wonder if he is good or the only option on a poop team.

Not really. I think they have drafted 25 PFs who were going to be their next savior after Iverson left. Embiid is decent, but he's going to be injured his entire career. He's played 31 games since he was drafted in 2014.

 

[mikiemo83]

Not really. I think they have drafted 25 PFs who were going to be their next savior after Iverson left. Embiid is decent, but he's going to be injured his entire career. He's played 31 games since he was drafted in 2014.

I wanted Okifor.

I hope the Embiid gets healthy once the Celtics pick him up after his rookie deal is done.

 

[TommyD420]

Allen Iverson played with less. Who was the 2nd best option for offense on his best team? Aaron McKie or Theo Ratliff. Guys who averaged 7.4 PPG and 7.2 PPG for their careers.

Or Eric Snow the Bricklayer playing off-guard. Rondo has a better jumper than that guy.

And don't forget the immortal Todd McCullough.

That team reminds me a lot of the Cleveland team James brought to the Finals the first time.

 

[Patriots71]

Fantastic post Tommy. Jordan may be glamorized more than any other player. For sure he had his warts and he was not always clutch either. But I think with Jordan he was better able to accept coaching and played Phil Jackson's triangle to perfection. Kind of like Brady with BB. Lebron is THE team and he has had dunces for head coaches but I do wonder even if he want to legit coach like Pop if he would be able to accept the coaching. He is a lot like ManninHGH who just could never let go of his Indy offense and that sense of control to his own detriment. I would like to see if Lebron could do that but he may not be able too. He is just sooo gifted and his basketball IQ is really high but I think like Pop could put the players AND system around him to help win like Jordan did.

When in Jordans playoff history did he have a player on his team score 40 in order for them to get the win? Name one playoff game. Irving was as much the reason Cle won last year as Lebron was. When you have a player on your team that can throw up 40, sorry but its hard for me to say you are carrying anything. Now, like manning, I don't know two different sports, but trying to make it like poor LeBron did not hand pick his team or go to a team that won a title and make a big 3 and did it all alone is silly. Jordan never, ever had another player score 40 or they lose, not once. Never ever in a playoff win was anyone besides Jordan the best player on the floor. Lebron picked these players, he will not let anyone tell him how to win, hell he even picked his coach.

 

[Mazz22]

When in Jordans playoff history did he have a player on his team score 40 in order for them to get the win? Name one playoff game. Irving was as much the reason Cle won last year as Lebron was. When you have a player on your team that can throw up 40, sorry but its hard for me to say you are carrying anything. Now, like manning, I don't know two different sports, but trying to make it like poor LeBron did not hand pick his team or go to a team that won a title and make a big 3 and did it all alone is silly. Jordan never, ever had another player score 40 or they lose, not once. Never ever in a playoff win was anyone besides Jordan the best player on the floor. Lebron picked these players, he will not let anyone tell him how to win, hell he even picked his coach.

You are actually making the point of my post. Jordan played in Jackson's triangle and he played it to perfection with 6 titles. Lebron IS the system - everything goes through him. I don't think he is the type of player that could take coaching similar to ManninHGH unless he was coached by someone he really respected which is why I threw out Pop.

You took my post as a slight on Jordan when it was just the opposite. Players like Jordan and Brady who are great AND are able to be coached generally go on to be the GOATs. I mean that is why you see great HCs and great players linked in team sports.

 

[mikiemo83]

You are actually making the point of my post. Jordan played in Jackson's triangle and he played it to perfection with 6 titles. Lebron IS the system - everything goes through him. I don't think he is the type of player that could take coaching similar to ManninHGH unless he was coached by someone he really respected which is why I threw out Pop.

You took my post as a slight on Jordan when it was just the opposite. Players like Jordan and Brady who are great AND are able to be coached generally go on to be the GOATs. I mean that is why you see great HCs and great players linked in team sports.

Manning couldn't take coaching, Denver had to implement his offense into Kubiaks.

That is why they are similar. They have to control everything, have it their way. Hold he mayo, hold the lettuce!

 

[Patriots71]

You are actually making the point of my post. Jordan played in Jackson's triangle and he played it to perfection with 6 titles. Lebron IS the system - everything goes through him. I don't think he is the type of player that could take coaching similar to ManninHGH unless he was coached by someone he really respected which is why I threw out Pop.

You took my post as a slight on Jordan when it was just the opposite. Players like Jordan and Brady who are great AND are able to be coached generally go on to be the GOATs. I mean that is why you see great HCs and great players linked in team sports.

Well if Lebron is the system, maybe that is why he has 4 title losses. I just meant that if you do not want to be coached and want to pick your own team, then nobody needs to say that he does not have coaching or a team.

 

[Mazz22]

Manning couldn't take coaching, Denver had to implement his offense into Kubiaks.

That is why they are similar. They have to control everything, have it their way. Hold he mayo, hold the lettuce!

Exactly.

Also forgotten is the fact that Jim Harbaugh was interested in ManninHGH and that niners team was literally a QB away from winning the chip or multiple chips for that matter AND he told Harbaugh no because he did not want Jim telling him what to do. He went to Fox who was as malleable a HC as he has ever played for. Same with Kubiak.

---------- Post added at 10:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 AM ----------

Well if Lebron is the system, maybe that is why he has 4 title losses. I just meant that if you do not want to be coached and want to pick your own team, then nobody needs to say that he does not have coaching or a team.

In fairness, outside of his finals loss to Dallas, all of his other losses have to be superior teams. His best finals IMO was the loss to GS two years ago where he literally carried that Cavs team minus Irving and Love to a game 6.

 

[BostonTim]

Hold he mayo, hold the lettuce!

Special orders don't upset us. Plus, it takes two hands ...

 

[mikiemo83]

Special orders don't upset us. Plus, it takes two hands ...