Looking at the Patriots - 2021

Oh, I totally agree that Cam was terrible last year. I mean, basically as bad as Brady was in 2019, but looked worse doing it, and with less leadership and clutch play.

But that means that to go 7-9, the roster couldn't be quite as terrible as it was made out to be, especially considering the opt-outs

Sure. Last year was what it was - a big step back because they had to adjust to the loss of the GOAT QB, plus had to pay the piper for all the deferred cap hits (which they were right to defer, as they were trying to make the most of the remaining TFB window) even under the best circumstances, and those circumstances got pretty sub-optimal with all the opt-outs and no preseason.

The player's on one hand, and the coach's on the other. Because a coach's job isn't just game planning and play calling. It's player development, and working with the player to get the absolute most possible out of his talent.


It's like this. The coaches get all credit for gameplanning (well, players can get credit for their strenghts and talents in particular areas making some types of game plans possible) and some credit for execution as well - running crisp practices and player development. The converse is also true.

No.

No

Yes. It was a totally defensible play call, and I would call it good.

I never said it was a bad call. He traded some probability of success for the element of surprise. Defensible, probably less defensible against a Belichick-coached team.

The missing piece, though:
Do great coaches help make great players great? Do they put players in a better position to be better executors, and to leverage their strengths and hide their weaknesses?

You actually do hear blame go to the coaches when there is poor execution: That's a badly coached/undisciplined team. Right? When teams are racking up penalties? When they don't seem to have an understanding of the situation? When they are turning the ball over and making unforced errors? Especially when it isn't a single player or occurrence, but multiple players in a pattern over multiple games? You don't hear blame go to the coaches?

The GM primarily, and the coach for not clearly communicating his needs and uses for the players, and/or for not coaching them well. And the players for not being good enough/taking coaching well.

GM, assuming it's purely money - meaning structure of contracts, future cap planning, etc. But probably a combination of GM and coach's communication.

In Bill's case, he is the GM and coach. There can be player fault, certainly, but it falls on him. Has that happened? The worst I've seen for a team that he really "owned" was a single year barely below .500...

Um...Chung, HT, Cannon and LaCosse were all presumptive starters. One is the heart and soul of the defense. One retired following 2020. One we traded for value. One we spent through the nose to make sure we didn't need to rely on this year. And Brandon Bolden is a valuable member of the team, as well.

2nd most opt-outs in the NFL was 5. Only 2 teams had more than 3. The Patriots had 8. Put another way, out of all the opt-outs in the NFL, just shy of one out of every 8 was a Patriot. Or nearly 4x the league average. To make matters worse, HT and Chung both specialize in hardening the run D. Shockingly, that was the single biggest weakness last year.

It was a massive deal, and one that planning couldn't account for.

Separate question:
Would all those players have opted out if TFB had stayed? Probably not. But with the perfect storm of all those things - Brady leaving, the cap hit, the opt-outs, no preseason for a new QB who wasn't a system fit anyway...

...they were still just a game short of .500.

Glorious post and this entire recent discussion is a template for clear thought vs reason muddled by agenda bias.
Some people have real difficulty with logic and individual rational thought. Middy and Mazz are 2 such people. Biases are a terrible thing.
Let's have a toast that BB is not 1 of those people.

And I'd agree. But I'd say it's less than a 50% chance of getting the TD there. Given the red zone offense in the game to that point and Miami's penchant for causing turnovers, I'd say maybe 30%ish. 60% FG. 10% no points. Ballpark.

Let's just say I'd have been on the edge of my seat if Miami had the ball with 1:00 to play and behind by 2 points.
 
19 RZ fumbles lost in the BB era - less than 1/year.
I had forgotten that Antowain Smith and Corey Dillon fumbled so many times.

BB has to play Harris since Stevenson also fumbled.
Hoping we see JJ some.

E_WbXc9XIAsKZLe
 
Interesting. And we're focusing on just the one score games in this analysis. So it sounds like if it wasn't for bad coaching of the D, the 2020 Pat's would have won a few more games, then? Because THAT would mean that even in a year in a new system, with no preseason, a bad arm, and Covid, Cam would have led that team - which was a total wreck because of roster mismanagement irrespective of all the opt-outs and having nothing to do with paying off all the deferred money for TFB and AB, remember - to a tiebreaker for the playoffs.

So if that team is a playoff contender, I gotta asks ya which of the following is true:
1) Cam is maybe not so terrible, especially under last year's circumstances?
2) Maybe the state of the roster wasn't quite so horrific and Belichick the GM wasn't such a washout?
3) Maybe the defense wasn't a total horror show, but in the face of all the opt-outs and the poor offense forcing them to defend longer, they wore down by the end of the year and STILL managed to be pretty much average overall?

I'll go out on a limb and say that if the QB, roster, and defense are all terrible there's no way a team is even sniffing the playoffs. It's a long shot if even one of those things is true. So I'd say you have to pick 2 of the 3 above that you agree with.

I didn't see a contradiction at all. You absolutely have been putting it all on Cam, and you did just sat that you agreed with Bedard. He pointed out - correctly - that you loudly insisted you were right about the Cam thing UNTIL someone had another take that you can structure as an attack on BB. Then you're all in.

I'm here to point out that if you believe this to be true, than it lifts some of the blame from Cam's shoulders. And after all, they were only 7-9. It isn't like they were a 2 win team. So with the defense taking some of the blame, that would make Cam's performance almost playoff-caliber! With that horrific roster, in the face of all the other well-discussed obstacles, that's...practically heroic!

Or maybe the rest of the roster wasn't mismanaged quite as badly as you make it out, especially given the league-high number of opt-outs? I'll leave the salary cap out of it, since that's a fake restriction...
You conflated an awful lot in that take and made some wild assumptions as well. Did you actually listen to the segment I posted?

I posted the Bedard commentary from Tuesday because it was the first time I heard someone tie together the late season struggles of 2019 all the way through to week one of this year. Bedard did not just talk about one game possessions or the defensive coaching as being the sole reason for the team's struggles over the last 23 games where they are 9-14. He was taking a macro view of the Patriots from the time they were 10-1 in 2019 all the way through to week 1 of this year.

What I found interesting as I noted was that he saw a drop off in defensive coaching since Flores left in 2018. He felt defensive game planning as well as personnel packages were lacking over the past 23 games with Steve B. and Jared Mayo as the defacto coordinators. He specifically talked about one possession games where we are used to seeing the defense help close out games and they failed to do so with the game Sunday being a prime example of them failing to get a stop with 3.30 minutes to play and Miami at their own 5 with a 1st and 14.

In terms of the 9-14 record, IMO it is a combination of things of why we are 5 games below .500 in the last 23 games. My reasons are as follows:
1) Roster management - the deteriorating of the roster was evident in 2018 when the offense had to morph into a run heavy team because the skill positions were lacking. It was worse in 2019 and then bottom third of the league in 2020 when Bill took a mulligan on the season to reset the cap because it had been mismanaged so poorly.
2) Cam Newton - He was the worst passing starting QB of 2020 and the offense fell all the way to 27th in points scored. Its worst ranking since 2000.
3) Skill positions - I suppose this could go right with Newton but we went out and spent like we never have before on 2 TEs and 2 WRs to upgrade the worst skill position group in the league.
4) Coaching - As I have said before, I still consider Bill and his coordinators to be top notch but I am now starting to reconsider this after Bedard's insights. I think we have to see how the rest of this season plays out as we spent an awful lot of money on that side of the ball and we still had issues vs the run and our secondary was suspect as well against a very offensively challenged Miami team.

So in short, I have not moved off Cam as the main reason we were 7-9 last year but looking at the whole picture from the last few games of 2019 through week one, there are some alarming trends that have been going on. We got really good QB play on Sunday and still lost so there is obviously more to figure out. I would like to revisit this mid-season to see what has changed/developed over the season.
 
Last edited:
Of the 4-9 record in 1-score games, Cam lost at least three by himself. Add Harris' fumble that's 4 plays which would have been 8-5 instead of 4-9. The defense only gave up 17 against a good Miami team. Hard to say that's bad coaching on the defense.
Facts that get forgotten when discussing last year. Not to mention the COVID KC game, that he would have likely won, taking a knee the entire 2nd half.
 
AP is on in on Blelichick.


“Being with the Chargers for six years, I thought I had a pretty good handle on the league and how I attacked stuff, how I broke down film and things like that,” Phillips said. “Then I came here with Coach and being in this system and seeing how it’s just like something totally different. Like, dang there was a lot that I didn’t know. It’s been fun to learn it and it’s been a challenge to learn it. I’ve accepted that challenge and used it to help me grow a whole lot more. So I would say that I’m a way better player than I was two years ago just from being in this system and learning something new.”

“I never want to get complacent,” Phillips said. “I’m always trying to find stuff to get better at, find stuff to learn because there’s so much stuff out there. Coach says it all the time, he’s been in the game 40-something years. You would think that’s a guy that’s seen everything in the book, but he’s continually learning. Continually trying to figure out how to better himself. I’m the same way.”
 
You conflated an awful lot in that take and made some wild assumptions as well. Did you actually listen to the segment I posted?

I posted the Bedard commentary from Tuesday because it was the first time I heard someone tie together the late season struggles of 2019 all the way through to week one of this year. Bedard did not just talk about one game possessions or the defensive coaching as being the sole reason for the team's struggles over the last 23 games where they are 9-14. He was taking a macro view of the Patriots from the time they were 10-1 in 2019 all the way through to week 1 of this year.

What I found interesting as I noted was that he saw a drop off in defensive coaching since Flores left in 2018. He felt defensive game planning as well as personnel packages were lacking over the past 23 games with Steve B. and Jared Mayo as the defacto coordinators. He specifically talked about one possession games where we are used to seeing the defense help close out games and they failed to do so with the game Sunday being a prime example of them failing to get a stop with 3.30 minutes to play and Miami at their own 5 with a 1st and 14.

In terms of the 9-14 record, IMO it is a combination of things of why we are 5 games below .500 in the last 23 games. My reasons are as follows:
1) Roster management - the deteriorating of the roster was evident in 2018 when the offense had to morph into a run heavy team because the skill positions were lacking. It was worse in 2019 and then bottom third of the league in 2020 when Bill took a mulligan on the season to reset the cap because it had been mismanaged so poorly.
2) Cam Newton - He was the worst passing starting QB of 2020 and the offense fell all the way to 27th in points scored. Its worst ranking since 2000.
3) Skill positions - I suppose this could go right with Newton but we went out and spent like we never have before on 2 TEs and 2 WRs to upgrade the worst skill position group in the league.
4) Coaching - As I have said before, I still consider Bill and his coordinators to be top notch but I am now starting to reconsider this after Bedard's insights. I think we have to see how the rest of this season plays out as we spent an awful lot of money on that side of the ball and we still had issues vs the run and our secondary was suspect as well against a very offensively challenged Miami team.

So in short, I have not moved off Cam as the main reason we were 7-9 last year but looking at the whole picture from the last few games of 2019 through week one, there are some alarming trends that have been going on. We got really good QB play on Sunday and still lost so there is obviously more to figure out. I would like to revisit this mid-season to see what has changed/developed over the season.

BB is a horrible GM and HC, we know.

Do you realize just how tired we all are your constant ridiculousness on this? Aside from Mid50, there is no one that wants to read this shit all day everyday.

BB built the teams and coached the teams that won 6 Super Bowls for us. You can't make that go away no matter how much you HATE him for letting Brady walk.

6 Super Bowls > your hate.
 
BB is a horrible GM and HC, we know.

Do you realize just how tired we all are your constant ridiculousness on this? Aside from Mid50, there is no one that wants to read this shit all day everyday.

BB built the teams and coached the teams that won 6 Super Bowls for us. You can't make that go away no matter how much you HATE him for letting Brady walk.

6 Super Bowls > your hate.
I was asked a question (actually multiple questions) by Flagg so I responded. You can just skip it if you don't want to read it.
 
You conflated an awful lot in that take and made some wild assumptions as well. Did you actually listen to the segment I posted?

I posted the Bedard commentary from Tuesday because it was the first time I heard someone tie together the late season struggles of 2019 all the way through to week one of this year. Bedard did not just talk about one game possessions or the defensive coaching as being the sole reason for the team's struggles over the last 23 games where they are 9-14. He was taking a macro view of the Patriots from the time they were 10-1 in 2019 all the way through to week 1 of this year.

What I found interesting as I noted was that he saw a drop off in defensive coaching since Flores left in 2018. He felt defensive game planning as well as personnel packages were lacking over the past 23 games with Steve B. and Jared Mayo as the defacto coordinators. He specifically talked about one possession games where we are used to seeing the defense help close out games and they failed to do so with the game Sunday being a prime example of them failing to get a stop with 3.30 minutes to play and Miami at their own 5 with a 1st and 14.

In terms of the 9-14 record, IMO it is a combination of things of why we are 5 games below .500 in the last 23 games. My reasons are as follows:
1) Roster management - the deteriorating of the roster was evident in 2018 when the offense had to morph into a run heavy team because the skill positions were lacking. It was worse in 2019 and then bottom third of the league in 2020 when Bill took a mulligan on the season to reset the cap because it had been mismanaged so poorly.
2) Cam Newton - He was the worst passing starting QB of 2020 and the offense fell all the way to 27th in points scored. Its worst ranking since 2000.
3) Skill positions - I suppose this could go right with Newton but we went out and spent like we never have before on 2 TEs and 2 WRs to upgrade the worst skill position group in the league.
4) Coaching - As I have said before, I still consider Bill and his coordinators to be top notch but I am now starting to reconsider this after Bedard's insights. I think we have to see how the rest of this season plays out as we spent an awful lot of money on that side of the ball and we still had issues vs the run and our secondary was suspect as well against a very offensively challenged Miami team.

So in short, I have not moved off Cam as the main reason we were 7-9 last year but looking at the whole picture from the last few games of 2019 through week one, there are some alarming trends that have been going on. We got really good QB play on Sunday and still lost so there is obviously more to figure out. I would like to revisit this mid-season to see what has changed/developed over the season.
Your final paragraph's first three words are, "So in short..." So in short??? The only thing of yours that's short is your flippin' memory. You write these repetitive, Tolstoy-novel length posts that have content that could fit in a thimble. My god, you endlessly bloviate.while writing absolutely nothing of meaningful substance. In fairness, I don't read most of your crap because 1) like other living things, my time on earth is finite, and 2) you're a human sleeping pill. You and your pal Son of Sybil.should get a couple of tin cans connected by string, build yourselves each a tree house and enjoy what's left of summer and fall. Holy jesus...
 
Your final paragraph's first three words are, "So in short..." So in short??? The only thing of yours that's short is your flippin' memory. You write these repetitive, Tolstoy-novel length posts that have content that could fit in a thimble. My god, you endlessly bloviate.while writing absolutely nothing of meaningful substance. In fairness, I don't read most of your crap because 1) like other living things, my time on earth is finite, and 2) you're a human sleeping pill. You and your pal Son of Sybil.should get a couple of tin cans connected by string, build yourselves each a tree house and enjoy what's left of summer and fall. Holy jesus...
1631902252810.png
 
It's been the same forever: when it's a legitimate football question, Bill will be eloquent and profound. When it's a disingenuous and/or "gotcha" question, the person asking deservedly receives a grunt, nasal snort, something unintelligible, or all 3...
I like the "all three" option best.

Cheers
 
I don't know you, so it's not possible for me to not "stand" you. I know enough about you from this board to be quite certain that you're a narcissistic manipulator who really gets off on intentionally trolling others. Most of us who populate these boards also troll from time-to-time, but for you it's your modus operandi. I don't dislike you, but I'm quite certain if I did meet you our acquaintance would be very brief. Oh, and finally remember this: you were the one who said you were putting me on ignore very shortly after we first exchanged posts. So, who exactly has it been who can't "stand" whom?
 
Back
Top