Pats 2nd Round #50 Pick -- Tyquan Thornton

[John Locke]

I'm not sure what question you're asking? Deep draft or weak draft the general principle of what I'm saying holds true, and if you don't believe it look for yourself, ask how many high end QB's are starting for teams that were picked in the 7th round? Or any position for that matter. Let me say it clearly for those that don't seem to get a very basic concept. I was responding to a post in which it was claimed in a blanket statement that what round a player was taken in or projected to go in was irrelevant. That claim is absurd because the very history of the draft shows us just the opposite, more starters and pro-bowlers will be taken from the 1st round than in the 2nd and so fourth, you don't believe me, check for yourself. So when you claim that taking a WR that most pundits projected to be a 5th round talent in the 2nd, you are passing up a number of players that have higher likelihood of being a productive NFL players, you are in essence, going against the odds at a poker table. Now I will say that if you need a WR, and hit on a WR, it doesn't matter what round that player was projected in, but it does raise the question of why take them ahead of the projection when you could have filled other holes first, but then that goes down a whole rabbit hole of possibilities. My issue with this draft in general is that literally every single pick was outside conventional wisdom regarding draft position and value, so Bill is basically saying, "I know more than anyone that's scouted or evaluated these players." Fine, but he better be right, because if he's not, we will be competing with the Jets for last in the division this season and likely many to come. I Know the Bill worshipers will never hear this, but this was clearly a Bill draft and now he's going to have to be held accountable, for better or worse.

Bill worshiper? Yeah, probably, for the simple fact of my absolute worship of the facts of reality and human greatness. Bill has provided over 20 years in New England alone a mass of evidence that worship was and continues to be most just. ✌

And of course you don't understand question as your response cleary shows evasion of the context of such a uniquely deep draft.

All hail the God of Light and creator of incredible men and Dynasties.

In Blll I Trust!!

God Bless America and Amen!!

I'll pray for your souls eternal salvation.

✌✌✌

 

[TommyD420]

I'm not sure what question you're asking? Deep draft or weak draft the general principle of what I'm saying holds true, and if you don't believe it look for yourself, ask how many high end QB's are starting for teams that were picked in the 7th round? Or any position for that matter. Let me say it clearly for those that don't seem to get a very basic concept. I was responding to a post in which it was claimed in a blanket statement that what round a player was taken in or projected to go in was irrelevant. That claim is absurd because the very history of the draft shows us just the opposite, more starters and pro-bowlers will be taken from the 1st round than in the 2nd and so fourth, you don't believe me, check for yourself. So when you claim that taking a WR that most pundits projected to be a 5th round talent in the 2nd, you are passing up a number of players that have higher likelihood of being a productive NFL players, you are in essence, going against the odds at a poker table. Now I will say that if you need a WR, and hit on a WR, it doesn't matter what round that player was projected in, but it does raise the question of why take them ahead of the projection when you could have filled other holes first, but then that goes down a whole rabbit hole of possibilities. My issue with this draft in general is that literally every single pick was outside conventional wisdom regarding draft position and value, so Bill is basically saying, "I know more than anyone that's scouted or evaluated these players." Fine, but he better be right, because if he's not, we will be competing with the Jets for last in the division this season and likely many to come. I Know the Bill worshipers will never hear this, but this was clearly a Bill draft and now he's going to have to be held accountable, for better or worse.

You read the 'conventional wisdom' links I put in there about Mike Hughes, right?
I could do that about 100 different players. Hell, Mel Kiper alone is just cringe-inducing:





This. This is the point. Not what 'conventional wisdom' says, because it's wrong a lot more often than it seems you realize it is.

 

[HSanders]

@Grogan
i get what you're saying. i think perhaps the pats look at the draft a bit differently not only in terms of where they rank guys, but also in terms of method of value. so for example, wrs' pay has gone up quite a bit. no doubt wrs like adams, etc. are going to get drafted high, get big bucks and are highly skilled. but, a lot of teams build top heavy...they pay a few guys at top dollar and fill in with a lot of more avg guys. the pats tend to have maybe a few well-paid guys, but more of a middle class of solid, versatile players. this helps hedge against the damage caused to a team due to injury, and the holdout/departure of guys killing the team. the sacrifice is more top end playmakers. so if you know davante adams is in the draft but you are already paying/going to pay x amt of players y, then can you afford d. adams? can you take d. adams' value and get 2 players for that? etc. wrs with good skillsets were a strength of this class. so you draft a wr with a lot of good traits that aren't at adams' level, and have a role for him, or get half his production for a third of the cost, etc.

 

[John Locke]

@Grogan
i get what you're saying. i think perhaps the pats look at the draft a bit differently not only in terms of where they rank guys, but also in terms of method of value. so for example, wrs' pay has gone up quite a bit. no doubt wrs like adams, etc. are going to get drafted high, get big bucks and are highly skilled. but, a lot of teams build top heavy...they pay a few guys at top dollar and fill in with a lot of more avg guys. the pats tend to have maybe a few well-paid guys, but more of a middle class of solid, versatile players. this helps hedge against the damage caused to a team due to injury, and the holdout/departure of guys killing the team. the sacrifice is more top end playmakers. so if you know davante adams is in the draft but you are already paying/going to pay x amt of players y, then can you afford d. adams? can you take d. adams' value and get 2 players for that? etc. wrs with good skillsets were a strength of this class. so you draft a wr with a lot of good traits that aren't at adams' level, and have a role for him, or get half his production for a third of the cost, etc.

Yes, quality depth is essential in Bill's system. It serves championship goals incredibly well over the long-term far far better than the load up on the top end, depth and fiscal future be damned approach many teams take.

History has born this out on spades.

 

[chevss454]

@Grogan
i get what you're saying. i think perhaps the pats look at the draft a bit differently not only in terms of where they rank guys, but also in terms of method of value. so for example, wrs' pay has gone up quite a bit. no doubt wrs like adams, etc. are going to get drafted high, get big bucks and are highly skilled. but, a lot of teams build top heavy...they pay a few guys at top dollar and fill in with a lot of more avg guys. the pats tend to have maybe a few well-paid guys, but more of a middle class of solid, versatile players. this helps hedge against the damage caused to a team due to injury, and the holdout/departure of guys killing the team. the sacrifice is more top end playmakers. so if you know davante adams is in the draft but you are already paying/going to pay x amt of players y, then can you afford d. adams? can you take d. adams' value and get 2 players for that? etc. wrs with good skillsets were a strength of this class. so you draft a wr with a lot of good traits that aren't at adams' level, and have a role for him, or get half his production for a third of the cost, etc.

Good post, HS.
Next year's WR class will be better than this year's class so I expect a lot more teams to trade high priced veteran WRs next year thinking they will simply draft and pay a rookie WR.
A few teams who think they are close to a SB will pay the expensive WR. Most won't. Eventually the exorbitant salaries relative to other positions will regress albeit modified by the skyrocketing cap over the next couple of years.

 

[Grogan]

@Grogan
i get what you're saying. i think perhaps the pats look at the draft a bit differently not only in terms of where they rank guys, but also in terms of method of value. so for example, wrs' pay has gone up quite a bit. no doubt wrs like adams, etc. are going to get drafted high, get big bucks and are highly skilled. but, a lot of teams build top heavy...they pay a few guys at top dollar and fill in with a lot of more avg guys. the pats tend to have maybe a few well-paid guys, but more of a middle class of solid, versatile players. this helps hedge against the damage caused to a team due to injury, and the holdout/departure of guys killing the team. the sacrifice is more top end playmakers. so if you know davante adams is in the draft but you are already paying/going to pay x amt of players y, then can you afford d. adams? can you take d. adams' value and get 2 players for that? etc. wrs with good skillsets were a strength of this class. so you draft a wr with a lot of good traits that aren't at adams' level, and have a role for him, or get half his production for a third of the cost, etc.

Are you actually saying that its the plan to over draft this guy at 50 so there's a better chance he's just average, and the Pats won't have to eventually pay him big bucks? Is this crazy town?

 

[BostonTim]

Are you actually saying that its the plan to over draft this guy at 50 so there's a better chance he's just average, and the Pats won't have to eventually pay him big bucks? Is this crazy town?

I read her whole post two whole times. A tough task for a poor guy like me. But no luck. Just where did she say that Bill wants him to be average?

Cheers

 

[TommyD420]

Are you actually saying that its the plan to over draft this guy at 50 so there's a better chance he's just average, and the Pats won't have to eventually pay him big bucks? Is this crazy town?

How did you get any of that from that post?

 

[aloyouis]

Are you actually saying that its the plan to over draft this guy at 50 so there's a better chance he's just average, and the Pats won't have to eventually pay him big bucks? Is this crazy town?

 

[Big/Sky/Fly]

How did you get any of that from that post?

Because he's Middy...that's why.

 

[Flagg the Wanderer]

I'm not sure what question you're asking? Deep draft or weak draft the general principle of what I'm saying holds true, and if you don't believe it look for yourself, ask how many high end QB's are starting for teams that were picked in the 7th round? Or any position for that matter. Let me say it clearly for those that don't seem to get a very basic concept. I was responding to a post in which it was claimed in a blanket statement that what round a player was taken in or projected to go in was irrelevant. That claim is absurd because the very history of the draft shows us just the opposite, more starters and pro-bowlers will be taken from the 1st round than in the 2nd and so fourth, you don't believe me, check for yourself. So when you claim that taking a WR that most pundits projected to be a 5th round talent in the 2nd, you are passing up a number of players that have higher likelihood of being a productive NFL players, you are in essence, going against the odds at a poker table. Now I will say that if you need a WR, and hit on a WR, it doesn't matter what round that player was projected in, but it does raise the question of why take them ahead of the projection when you could have filled other holes first, but then that goes down a whole rabbit hole of possibilities. My issue with this draft in general is that literally every single pick was outside conventional wisdom regarding draft position and value, so Bill is basically saying, "I know more than anyone that's scouted or evaluated these players." Fine, but he better be right, because if he's not, we will be competing with the Jets for last in the division this season and likely many to come. I Know the Bill worshipers will never hear this, but this was clearly a Bill draft and now he's going to have to be held accountable, for better or worse.

Your logic is faulty. You are relying the history of where a player was drafted, which makes sense. But that history includes all the ridiculous reaches and fallers that left the draft is incredulous. You are citing as your evidence what GMs actually did, not where the conventional wisdom had them slotted, to argue that what a coach actually did was bad because it goes against the conventional wisdom.

That said, I appreciate that you were making an argument based on something. If you were to go back to previous draft publications and make the same argument, that would make sense and likely still hold.

 

[king of kings]

This is what I hate about Brady Era Fans. They're so Spoiled Rotten . They can't handle anything less then a championship appearance. Those days are Gone. We're moving forward with pats rebuild with Mac Jones. If you don't like it take your bitter butts to TB bandwagon.

We have a ton of information on all the players that are in the draft. What's online, you should go talk to the geniuses that are online. I don't know. MyFace, YourFace, InstantFace. Go talk to whoever you want that does that stuff. I don't know.

 

[TipRoast]

I'm not sure what question you're asking? Deep draft or weak draft the general principle of what I'm saying holds true, and if you don't believe it look for yourself, ask how many high end QB's are starting for teams that were picked in the 7th round? Or any position for that matter. Let me say it clearly for those that don't seem to get a very basic concept. I was responding to a post in which it was claimed in a blanket statement that what round a player was taken in or projected to go in was irrelevant. That claim is absurd because the very history of the draft shows us just the opposite, more starters and pro-bowlers will be taken from the 1st round than in the 2nd and so fourth, you don't believe me, check for yourself. So when you claim that taking a WR that most pundits projected to be a 5th round talent in the 2nd, you are passing up a number of players that have higher likelihood of being a productive NFL players, you are in essence, going against the odds at a poker table. Now I will say that if you need a WR, and hit on a WR, it doesn't matter what round that player was projected in, but it does raise the question of why take them ahead of the projection when you could have filled other holes first, but then that goes down a whole rabbit hole of possibilities. My issue with this draft in general is that literally every single pick was outside conventional wisdom regarding draft position and value, so Bill is basically saying, "I know more than anyone that's scouted or evaluated these players." Fine, but he better be right, because if he's not, we will be competing with the Jets for last in the division this season and likely many to come. I Know the Bill worshipers will never hear this, but this was clearly a Bill draft and now he's going to have to be held accountable, for better or worse.

Here's an aspect about the draft that hasn't been discussed - some players reach their peak in college, and never improve. And some players are still on the ascent, and won't reach their peak until they receive pro-level coaching and are challenged by pro-level competition.

The job of the scouts and the GMs is to figure all of this out, and try to identify which are the Jerrod Mayo types, and which are the Vernon Gholston types.

 

[Grogan]

I read her whole post two whole times. A tough task for a poor guy like me. But no luck. Just where did she say that Bill wants him to be average?

Cheers

I'm sorry, but do you actually think I'm going to be offended because you refur to me as "she"? LOL, are you ten years old or are you just that dumb?

 

[BostonTim]

I'm sorry...

Apology accepted

 

[TommyD420]

I'm sorry, but do you actually think I'm going to be offended because you refur to me as "she"? LOL, are you ten years old or are you just that dumb?

Again, your reading comprehension is lacking.

He was calling HSanders 'she', which, you know, she is.

 

[Flagg the Wanderer]

Here's an aspect about the draft that hasn't been discussed - some players reach their peak in college, and never improve. And some players are still on the ascent, and won't reach their peak until they receive pro-level coaching and are challenged by pro-level competition.

The job of the scouts and the GMs is to figure all of this out, and try to identify which are the Jerrod Mayo types, and which are the Vernon Gholston types.

Good point, and similar to the one I was checking back in to make: first rounders are given a longer time and greater opportunities to make a significant impact and prove themselves due to the reputation invested in the pick and the contract that is due. That alone will yield a confirmation bias in terms of which round yields better/more productive players.

I think early selections would still produce better than later ones, but it's not as clear cut as it might appear.

 

[Grogan]

Your logic is faulty. You are relying the history of where a player was drafted, which makes sense. But that history includes all the ridiculous reaches and fallers that left the draft is incredulous. You are citing as your evidence what GMs actually did, not where the conventional wisdom had them slotted, to argue that what a coach actually did was bad because it goes against the conventional wisdom.

That said, I appreciate that you were making an argument based on something. If you were to go back to previous draft publications and make the same argument, that would make sense and likely still hold.

If my logic is faulty, than how come there isn't an equal number of starting QBs in the league that were taken in the 7th round vs the 1st? If rounds and draft position don't matter, and the pundits are so wrong, then why are the vast majority of players picked in the rounds and at the spots they were predicted? Hell, if they are all so wrong, why evaluate players at all, hell, why not just put all the names in a hat and let teams pull blindly. The level of twisting and contorting going on to make excuses for Bill's selections here is ridiculous and defensive. The Bill apologists here would be more honest If they just admitted that Bill went off the rails of traditional draft logic and wait to see the results. Fact of the matter is I get the sense that excuses are already being formed because the truth is this draft really scares them every bit as much as it does me.

 

[Flagg the Wanderer]

If my logic is faulty, than how come there isn't an equal number of starting QBs in the league that were taken in the 7th round vs the 1st? If rounds and draft position don't matter, and the pundits are so wrong, then why are the vast majority of players picked in the rounds and at the spots they were predicted? Hell, if they are all so wrong, why evaluate players at all, hell, why not just put all the names in a hat and let teams pull blindly. The level of twisting and contorting going on to make excuses for Bill's selections here is ridiculous and defensive. The Bill apologists here would be more honest I'f they just admitted that Bill went off the rails of traditional draft logic and wait to see the results. Fact if the matter is I get the sense that excuses are already being formed because the truth is this draft really scares them every bit as much as it does me.

You're arguing against something that's not even close to what I said.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Here's an aspect about the draft that hasn't been discussed - some players reach their peak in college, and never improve. And some players are still on the ascent, and won't reach their peak until they receive pro-level coaching and are challenged by pro-level competition.

The job of the scouts and the GMs is to figure all of this out, and try to identify which are the Jerrod Mayo types, and which are the Vernon Gholston types.

True.
An UDFA CB or WR the Pats pick up? I'm all in. Same thing if it's a Scarneccia-scouted low pick OLinemen. Because the Pats have a lot of credibility and history here in the BB era.

A 1st or 2nd round WR or CB taken however? Absolutely not. Pats have blown a half dozen picks on busts. No confidence.