2021 draft. Round 1 pick 15 Patriots select QB Mac Jones!

Excellent

 

Really great post. This is a pretty good summation of the normal fan I think. We get excited or are down at the signing of a new player. Then we get time to know him and we start to change our opinion one way or the other. For me, I desperately wanted us to take Fields who by every report is killing it in Chicago. That being said, I like Jones persona a lot and also his traits even if I think having a more explosive QB would be better in today's league. Mostly, I just don't want to see Cam again under center. I really do hope Jones leaves him in the dust during TC.

Greg Cosell has some thoughts about this line of thinking.

Greg Cosell stands in for Peter King who is on vacation and writes a terrific article. Here's a snippet

3. I think I am truly absorbed by the conversation about the quarterback position, specifically whether the ability to make off-script, improvisational plays is now a necessity in today’s NFL, or whether a quarterback can still play at a consistently high level without that trait. While Russell Wilson has been making outstanding off-script plays for years, my sense is he was considered more of the exception given his lack of size, and the fact that there were snaps in which he could not see a clean throw, even if it was there. For Wilson, movement was a necessity to function in the league. It strikes me that Patrick Mahomes has been the one to accelerate this discussion with his movement and his rare ability to make off-platform throws. (Of course, Matthew Stafford has been doing that for years, well before Mahomes came into the league, but for some reason no one seemed to notice.) Josh Allen, coming off an exceptional 2020 season, has also enhanced this debate.

I would pose the question this way: If you believe that improvisation is now essential to play NFL QB at the needed level of excellence versus the increase in sub-package defenses (5 defensive backs, 6 defensive backs, at times 7 defensive backs) and the expansion of pressure/blitz schemes, then you need to have a reason for the continued excellence of Tom Brady. (You could put Drew Brees in that category as well.) And please don’t tell me it’s because he’s great, as if that removes you from answering the question. Why is Brady great? What are the traits and attributes that have resulted in him playing at a Hall of Fame level throughout his career, and continue to do so, without the mobility to make outside of structure plays? That is what you need to study and evaluate, in great depth. You must develop a detailed and precise understanding of this before flippantly tossing out the platitude that off-script plays are now a necessity. There is not a coach in the NFL who would draft a quarterback based on his ability to extend plays if the coach felt that that quarterback could not execute the structure of the pass game with the needed efficiency and consistency on a play-by-play, game-to-game basis. Quarterback is a subtle, nuanced, disciplined craft position both before and after the snap; that is how it is taught. Coaches do not roll the ball out in practice, and then say let’s run around and make some plays. Maybe in college, but certainly not in the NFL.

It is a conversation that will no doubt continue with the influx of more athletic quarterbacks into the NFL. Many see Mac Jones as the litmus test for this debate. He was the only quarterback of the top 5 chosen in the first round who did not show second reaction improvisational movement. Some say he’s a better athlete than his tape showed; I guess we will see when he gets his opportunity in New England. What Jones did at Alabama was play the position with needed refinement and maturity from the pocket. It seems these days that we don’t place the same value on that as we do the ability to make off-script plays. As the world turns.

FMIA Guest: Greg Cosell On The NFL Evolution Of X And O Film Study - Peter King, NBC Sports

Peter King's Football Morning In America column has a guest author this week, Greg Cosell, who writes about game film study and how it's changed the NFL.

profootballtalk.nbcsports.com

PK has been "Wally Pipped"

 

Greg Cosell has some thoughts about this line of thinking.

Thanks Chevvs. That was pretty interesting. Kind of a strange take by Cosell. Allow me to explain.

I am not sure why he cites Stafford and not Rodgers. I would not say Stafford goes off-script in the same vein at all as Rodgers or Mahomes. And if we are talking about who got the ball rolling with improv, it was Roethlisberger who was the ultimate sand lot QB the first half of his career. And he also leaves off Watson too which is head scratching. I mean really the entire league has gone to the athletic/improv QB. There are not anymore statuesque type QBs now that Eli and Brees have retired.

What he fails to mention and maybe he did in the full article (not sure if you only posted an excerpt) is that NFL offenses have changed as the college game has pulled through to the pros. Because it is a less of a pro style offense being run, the athletic/improv QB is better able to run the offenses in today's game. Look at the Chiefs, Bills, Bucs, Rams, etc - they are all fast paced offenses with explosive play makers all over the field. It's not just the QB, it is the entire NFL offense that has changed.

Him citing Brady caused me to chuckle. Does he not understand that Brady left the Patriots precisely because our offense was devoid of talent and picked a team that gave him real weapons at his disposal to go win his 7th ring in year one? And then he says, you can't just say Brady is great as a reason for his success as a a traditional pocket QB. LOL. Really? That is maybe the worst take ever. I mean, we as Pats fans understand that Brady is never walking though that door again in our lifetimes. To use him as a reason to stay with a pocket passer is head scratching to me as like I said, even Brady left for a team that was more dynamic.

All that being said, my personal view is the best case scenario for a QB is to have both - great pocket presence and high football IQ and athletic ability. It pains me to say this but if you were constructing the perfect QB for today's game, it would be Rodgers. He gives you everything except heart and leadership. But those are intangibles anyways. But his overall game is the exact game you would want - heady, smart with the ball, athletic, can pick up first downs, extend plays, can throw deep, throw with touch. He has it all. But again, doubtful you can find him again either so you pick your poison so to speak.

I like Jones a lot what I hate is the way Bill has built the offense. I hate TE, RB heavy in today's league. I think for this year and maybe next year it is fine as Jones learns but we will struggle to score points with the offense lacking dynamic play makers. I mean our one speed guy Agholor drops the ball a lot. I really wish we did trade for Julio even though I was against it at the start because he did not cost what I thought he would and he would take so much pressure off our entire offense because the defense has to account for him.

 

Brady thread #2.

 

Holy dear god….



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

Good question. Getting a sense of the trend is easier to see than explain. Plus my memory is clouded by discussion of Mac in other, later, threads.

I think the reactions at first were euphoric as those of us who wanted him (mostly) all along chimed in. The Mac Jones lovers were on pins and neeedles as the draft went on, and BB didn't make any moves. So when it came to 15 we were ready to explode.

Then it calmed down quickly. I, who had wanted him so badly, was the first to say that I doubted he would start before week 11 or 12. I don't remember that but that's the thing about archives

Oothers also said much the same, then came pages and pages of Jones can''t run, he's not athletic, he's a product of Saban's system and was made by the WRs, and rebuttals.

The usual. Some saw a lot of Brady's traits in him, other pointed out that he hasn't thown and NFL pass yet and fon't compare a rookie draftee to Brady, Montana, etc, and that we drafted the perfect QB for a bygone NFL era.

Then by OTAs, we were mostly all pretty much onboard with him and excited, especially as more highlight videos came out.

I think me and Mazz changed the most. I was ready to annoint him on May 1 to start week one. Then I wanted to wait and not 'ruin' him. Now I'm middle of the road, kind of In BB We Trust. Mazz was hardest on him from the get-go, and maintained that he had a weak arm and was drafted in the right place (last of the top 5), but softened to he might do well IF he developed arm strength. Bear in mind that this thread only lasted a week before discussinon moved to OTA, etc threads, and Mazz is now much more onboard and I'm a raving homer lunatic again.

Looking back, I don't see much about the Jets moving up in front of us. I think they saved us, and that they pre-empted the Vikes and Saints from be able to slide in and nab Jones right out from under us.

I never stopped.

 

Thanks Chevvs. That was pretty interesting. Kind of a strange take by Cosell. Allow me to explain.

I am not sure why he cites Stafford and not Rodgers. I would not say Stafford goes off-script in the same vein at all as Rodgers or Mahomes. And if we are talking about who got the ball rolling with improv, it was Roethlisberger who was the ultimate sand lot QB the first half of his career. And he also leaves off Watson too which is head scratching. I mean really the entire league has gone to the athletic/improv QB. There are not anymore statuesque type QBs now that Eli and Brees have retired.

What he fails to mention and maybe he did in the full article (not sure if you only posted an excerpt) is that NFL offenses have changed as the college game has pulled through to the pros. Because it is a less of a pro style offense being run, the athletic/improv QB is better able to run the offenses in today's game. Look at the Chiefs, Bills, Bucs, Rams, etc - they are all fast paced offenses with explosive play makers all over the field. It's not just the QB, it is the entire NFL offense that has changed.

Him citing Brady caused me to chuckle. Does he not understand that Brady left the Patriots precisely because our offense was devoid of talent and picked a team that gave him real weapons at his disposal to go win his 7th ring in year one? And then he says, you can't just say Brady is great as a reason for his success as a a traditional pocket QB. LOL. Really? That is maybe the worst take ever. I mean, we as Pats fans understand that Brady is never walking though that door again in our lifetimes. To use him as a reason to stay with a pocket passer is head scratching to me as like I said, even Brady left for a team that was more dynamic.

All that being said, my personal view is the best case scenario for a QB is to have both - great pocket presence and high football IQ and athletic ability. It pains me to say this but if you were constructing the perfect QB for today's game, it would be Rodgers. He gives you everything except heart and leadership. But those are intangibles anyways. But his overall game is the exact game you would want - heady, smart with the ball, athletic, can pick up first downs, extend plays, can throw deep, throw with touch. He has it all. But again, doubtful you can find him again either so you pick your poison so to speak.

I like Jones a lot what I hate is the way Bill has built the offense. I hate TE, RB heavy in today's league. I think for this year and maybe next year it is fine as Jones learns but we will struggle to score points with the offense lacking dynamic play makers. I mean our one speed guy Agholor drops the ball a lot. I really wish we did trade for Julio even though I was against it at the start because he did not cost what I thought he would and he would take so much pressure off our entire offense because the defense has to account for him.

I think you missed his point that there will always be a place in the NFL for a smart drop back pocket passer QB and that the ability of the QB to run is overblown by some NFL GMs and coaches the last few years. That any QB who can read defenses, throw accurately and avoid turnovers can be successful and maybe even the GOAT. Although he never mentions Lamar Jackson by name, Cosell does not think the future is bright for QBs who have designed QB run plays to be successful. Iow, a QB's ability to pass is far more important his running ability.

 

I think you missed his point that there will always be a place in the NFL for a smart drop back pocket passer QB and that the ability of the QB to run is overblown by some NFL GMs and coaches the last few years. That any QB who can read defenses, throw accurately and avoid turnovers can be successful and maybe even the GOAT. Although he never mentions Lamar Jackson by name, Cosell does not think the future is bright for QBs who have designed QB run plays to be successful. Iow, a QB's ability to pass is far more important his running ability.

I might have. Do you have the full article?

I have always maintained that the best, most successful way to play QB is to have a QB that can diagnose the defense pre-snap, drop back, move/slide in the pocket, make the right decision with the ball which is the most important, and deliver an accurate pass. That is how winning is done the best and with the least amount of stress on the offense and on the QB who if he can play like that will take less big hits.

I think Lamar is the other end of the spectrum as he really does not fit the mold of today's QBs at all. He is such an athletic freak that he is able to win a ton of games because he stresses the defense so much. The Ravens are about to pay him a huge contract.

I think when you look at the landscape of today's NFL offenses and not just the QB position by itself, you see dynamic offenses because the college game has pulled through and the rules allow the pass game to be so criminally easy.

I am not sure I agree with Cosell that the pure drop back passer, ala Brady, Eli, Peyton, Brees, will have a future in today's game. There is a reason why Mac dropped to #15 and went last of all the QBs ahead of him. It is precisely because he cannot extend plays/improv like the other QBs. So there has been a sea shift change in what GMs want and that is because the offenses have changed so much over the past 5-8 years IMO.

 

I might have. Do you have the full article?

I have always maintained that the best, most successful way to play QB is to have a QB that can diagnose the defense pre-snap, drop back, move/slide in the pocket, make the right decision with the ball which is the most important, and deliver an accurate pass. That is how winning is done the best and with the least amount of stress on the offense and on the QB who if he can play like that will take less big hits.

I think Lamar is the other end of the spectrum as he really does not fit the mold of today's QBs at all. He is such an athletic freak that he is able to win a ton of games because he stresses the defense so much. The Ravens are about to pay him a huge contract.

I think when you look at the landscape of today's NFL offenses and not just the QB position by itself, you see dynamic offenses because the college game has pulled through and the rules allow the pass game to be so criminally easy.

I am not sure I agree with Cosell that the pure drop back passer, ala Brady, Eli, Peyton, Brees, will have a future in today's game. There is a reason why Mac dropped to #15 and went last of all the QBs ahead of him. It is precisely because he cannot extend plays/improv like the other QBs. So there has been a sea shift change in what GMs want and that is because the offenses have changed so much over the past 5-8 years IMO.

Exactly.

I hope so.

You're entitled to your opinion. He gave you reasons to change your mind, however.

Imo, Mac dropped bc other GMs/coaches couldn't decide if his game was dependent upon Bama's talented WR corps so they downgraded him. They couldn't see his decision-making skills, his pre and post snap reads, his adjustments to them and his accuracy outside of those WRs. Cosell was poking fun at the "sea change". He was saying GMs should look at any QB propect as a passer first and foremost, hence his use of Brady as an example.

 

Exactly.

I hope so.

You're entitled to your opinion. He gave you reasons to change your mind, however.

Imo, Mac dropped bc other GMs/coaches couldn't decide if his game was dependent upon Bama's talented WR corps so they downgraded him. They couldn't see his decision-making skills, his pre and post snap reads, his adjustments to them and his accuracy outside of those WRs. Cosell was poking fun at the "sea change". He was saying GMs should look at any QB propect as a passer first and foremost, hence his use of Brady as an example.

I think the muted expectations of Jones are fair. He only did play one year for Bama and he had a super talented team. Now he is on a Patriots team that has solid talent but not explosive talent by any means. I am interested to see how patient he can be with our offense and picking apart defenses with our TEs and running the ball with our RBs and then looking to hit the occasional deep pass.

I am not sure why Cosell thinks GMs are not looking at QBs as passers first. I think they absolutely are but the added athletic elements are a huge bonus in today's game where the QB is much more a part of the offense then just a passer. Can you win the traditional way? Absolutely. But it is much harder unless you have a super freak like Brady.

 

I think the muted expectations of Jones are fair. He only did play one year for Bama and he had a super talented team. Now he is on a Patriots team that has solid talent but not explosive talent by any means. I am interested to see how patient he can be with our offense and picking apart defenses with our TEs and running the ball with our RBs and then looking to hit the occasional deep pass.

I am not sure why Cosell thinks GMs are not looking at QBs as passers first. I think they absolutely are but the added athletic elements are a huge bonus in today's game where the QB is much more a part of the offense then just a passer. Can you win the traditional way? Absolutely. But it is much harder unless you have a super freak like Brady.

Fair for shortsighted people. QB is a mental game first and Mac has that down pat.

Brady is far from the only successful pocket passer the game has seen. Of the last 21 SBs played, 19 were won by pocket passers; 7 by Brady, granted, but 12 were not Brady .
The better QBs are the great decision-makers who process information quicker, who get through their reads quicker, who are extremely accurate, can anticipate throws, manipulate defenses with their eyes or great play action fakes and then make clutch plays. Lamar's 2 1000 yd rushing seasons pale when compared to a competent pocket passer. Give me a heady QB with a decent arm over an athletically gifted QB like Lamar every time. In addition, I'll take the QB with the fastest processing speed, Mac Jones in this case, over Trevor Lawrence, Zach Wilson, Trey Lance or Justin Fields. Heck, in that group, Trevor Lawrence might come in dead last!

The best QB is the mentally exceptional QB, imo.

 

Lamar's 2 1000 yd rushing seasons pale when compared to a competent pocket passer. Give me a heady QB with a decent arm over an athletically gifted QB like Lamar every time. In addition, I'll take the QB with the fastest processing speed, Mac Jones in this case, over Trevor Lawrence, Zach Wilson, Trey Lance or Justin Fields. Heck, in that group, Trevor Lawrence might come in dead last!

The best QB is the mentally exceptional QB, imo.

I get that you are high on Jones and I like him too but this sentence is a just a bit over the top. I truly hope Mac is the best of the lot but the odds are pretty stacked against him. We really don't know yet if he can mentally handle the NFL game. Playing for Bama on a stacked team does not make him mentally superior to the other Qbs especially Lawrence who is the most NFL ready QB since Andrew Luck.

I am not sure why you keep mentioning Lamar. None of the QBs taken this year is Lamar. He is in a class by himself much the way Vick and Newton were when they first entered the league. QBs like Rodgers, Mahomes and Allen are what you want for today's game ideally. It does not mean you can't win with a different style but they give you everything you need in today's game to be successful - their football IQ and decision making are great, they can extend plays, run for first downs and make every throw in the book and then some.

I am very interested to see how Mac develops his arm. That is probably the weakest part of his game especially compared to the QBs taken ahead of him. He also needs to develop his body and drop the flab and put on muscle so he can withstand the punishment given he is a smallish type QB.

 

I do believe of the QBs drafted this year Jones and Lance look much the same as far as raw talent goes. I do believe these two will prove to be the better long term QBs.
I don't think either of them should be starting game one this season. Yes he had limited QB playing time at Bama but not only one season. In the 2018 season, Jones appeared in 14 of Bama's 15 games, mostly as a holder on special teams. Jones added his name to the Alabama record book with a 94-yard touchdown pass to Jaylen Waddle, the second-longest in school history, in a win against Louisiana.
Jones served as the starting QB for the second half of the 2019 season after Tua Tagovailoa suffered a severe hip injury. Jones made four starts for the Tide, beating Arkansas and Western Carolina before falling to Auburn in the Iron Bowl, despite throwing for four touchdowns and 335 yards. Jones then led Alabama to a 35–16 win over Michigan in the Citrus Bowl. Jones finished 2019 with 14 TD passes for 1,503 yards in 11 games.
Buy now you should all know what he did in 2020. Jones finished the season throwing for 4,500 yards with 41 touchdowns and only 4 interceptions. He was named the recipient of the Davey O'Brien, Johnny Unitas Golden Arm, and Manning Awards.

 

I get that you are high on Jones and I like him too but this sentence is a just a bit over the top. I truly hope Mac is the best of the lot but the odds are pretty stacked against him. We really don't know yet if he can mentally handle the NFL game. Playing for Bama on a stacked team does not make him mentally superior to the other Qbs especially Lawrence who is the most NFL ready QB since Andrew Luck.

I am not sure why you keep mentioning Lamar. None of the QBs taken this year is Lamar. He is in a class by himself much the way Vick and Newton were when they first entered the league. QBs like Rodgers, Mahomes and Allen are what you want for today's game ideally. It does not mean you can't win with a different style but they give you everything you need in today's game to be successful - their football IQ and decision making are great, they can extend plays, run for first downs and make every throw in the book and then some.

I am very interested to see how Mac develops his arm. That is probably the weakest part of his game especially compared to the QBs taken ahead of him. He also needs to develop his body and drop the flab and put on muscle so he can withstand the punishment given he is a smallish type QB.

I like Jones because he's shown he's a smart QB who is driven to succeed throughout his career. He earned SEC Scholar Athlete of the year for 2020. That says a lot to me about his mental ability and his drive. That tells me he is mentally exceptional. He had a plan to succeed as young boy and he's followed that plan. He keeps that plan close to him at all times.

You said that "Playing for Bama on a stacked team does not make him mentally superior to the other Qbs especially Lawrence who is the most NFL ready QB since Andrew Luck."
Where did get that from? I never said that. I said he is the smartest of the rookies taken ahead of him. Trevor Lawrence should have a great career; he's a gifted QB who shows a lot of promise. Btw, how did Andrew Luck's career turn out. I might have left that part out but I never liked Luck anyway. Luck's career stats are eerily similar to Tannehill's.

Why do I like Mac Jones better?
Because his arm is good enough and because he's mentally superior and driven.
He makes very good on-field decisions as shown by his stats.
He won every QB specific award over Trevor Lawrence, Zach Wilson, Trey Lance or Justin Fields last year - The Davey O'Brien Award, The Unitas Award and The Manning Award.
The 2 national awards Lawrence won over 3 years were based on general ability rather than QB play - The Archie Griffen Award (best freshman player) and Bobby Bowden Award (best athlete of faith).

You want more proof? Go compare their stats. I'll take Mac Jones every time.

 

I like Jones because he's shown he's a smart QB who is driven to succeed throughout his career. He earned SEC Scholar Athlete of the year for 2020. That says a lot to me about his mental ability and his drive. That tells me he is mentally exceptional. He had a plan to succeed as young boy and he's followed that plan. He keeps that plan close to him at all times.

You said that "Playing for Bama on a stacked team does not make him mentally superior to the other Qbs especially Lawrence who is the most NFL ready QB since Andrew Luck."
Where did get that from? I never said that. I said he is the smartest of the rookies taken ahead of him. Trevor Lawrence should have a great career; he's a gifted QB who shows a lot of promise. Btw, how did Andrew Luck's career turn out. I might have left that part out but I never liked Luck anyway. Luck's career stats are eerily similar to Tannehill's.

Why do I like Mac Jones better?
Because his arm is good enough and because he's mentally superior and driven.
He makes very good on-field decisions as shown by his stats.
He won every QB specific award over Trevor Lawrence, Zach Wilson, Trey Lance or Justin Fields last year - The Davey O'Brien Award, The Unitas Award and The Manning Award.
The 2 national awards Lawrence won over 3 years were based on general ability rather than QB play - The Archie Griffen Award (best freshman player) and Bobby Bowden Award (best athlete of faith).

You want more proof? Go compare their stats. I'll take Mac Jones every time.

Don't look now but your love for Jones may already trump my love for Brady and he hasn't even taken a snap yet. Lol

Just kidding with you by the way. I hope he does develop well into our next franchise Qb.

 

What happens if the injuries start to pile up. RG3 career was never the same after his knee injury. Even Steve Grogan admitted he had to change his style. Learn to be more of a pocket QB instead of relying on his legs . Can they still be effective as a QB reading Coverages , pressure & making tough accurate passes

Injuries are part of the game especially for QBs.
The safest part of the field is the pocket.
For the more mobile guys that are dynamic like Rodgers, Mahomes, and Wilson too, you rarely see them take big hits outside of the pocket. They always slide down or get out of bounds. You have to play smartly always.

 

Don't look now but your love for Jones may already trump my love for Brady and he hasn't even taken a snap yet. Lol

Just kidding with you by the way. I hope he does develop well into our next franchise Qb.

Actually, no. He's a guy who shows promise but it's up to him to fulfill that promise. If he doesn't, next man up.