2023: Higher or lower than the crowd on...

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Higher on: Bourne, our one real chess piece of a WR, who can perform the role of an X, Z, big slot, or speed slot, and I think he pulls it together and O'Brien has a field day with him. His worst-case (healthy) scenario is probably the next man up behind Parker, JuJu, AND Thornton, and I think he's still developing. 1-2 technical habits he needs to break/improve to be truly deadly. Paging Troy Brown...

Lower on: Parker, who does a couple of things very well, but not great, is pretty much X-exclusive, and has to prove availability. He is stable, but an "opportunity cost"ly WR in much the same way I used that phrase describing Meyers.
 
If Ty Montgomery stays healthy, I'm picking him to bust out this year for the offense whether he plays slot WR or RB.
He has a long history of injury so I realize that's not the way to bet. Just saying this kid has talent.
He reminds me so much of James White.
 
chevss454 said:
If Ty Montgomery stays healthy, I'm picking him to bust out this year for the offense whether he plays slot WR or RB.
He has a long history of injury so I realize that's not the way to bet. Just saying this kid has talent.
He reminds me so much of James White.
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I would love for Ty to do something this season. He is a little bigger than Sweet Feet but at 30 years and his injury history I am not all that optimistic

Injury History​

DateLeagueInjuryDetails
Oct 18, 2015NFLPedal Ankle (high) Sprain Grade 3Montgomery never returned after suffering the Week 6 injury. He underwent surgery to address cartilage damage.
Oct 20, 2016NFLAbdomen Kidney BruiseMontgomery spotted blood in his urine after Week 7, likely resulting from his medical condition (Sickle Cell Trait). He missed 1 game.
Sep 28, 2017NFLChest Rib FractureMontgomery went down on the opening drive of Week 4. He missed Week 5 with multiple broken ribs.
Nov 12, 2017NFLChest Rib FractureMontgomery re-injured his ribs against Chicago. He didn't appear in another game, although the Packers placed him on IR with a wrist injury.
Sep 24, 2017NFLHand Wrist Sprain/Pull UnspecifiedMontgomery played through the early-season injury before missing the final 7 games of the season. He was placed on IR on December 1.
Sep 25, 2020NFLThigh Hamstring Strain Grade 2Montgomery was limited in the Saints' practice ahead of the game vs. the Packers due to a hamstring injury. He was put on IR and missed 5 games
Nov 27, 2020NFLThigh Hamstring Sprain/Pull Unspecified Grade 1Montgomery suffered a hamstring injury during Saints' practice. He was ruled out for Week 12 game against the Broncos.
Nov 4, 2021NFLThigh Hamstring Sprain/Pull Unspecified Grade 1Montgomery missed Week 9 against the Falcons due to a hamstring injury.
Nov 14, 2021NFLHand Finger DislocationMontgomery suffered a finger injury in Week 10's game against the Tennessee Titans.
Dec 30, 2021NFLBack Lower Lumbar Sprain/Pull Unspecified Grade 1Montgomery was questionable for Week 17's game against the Panthers due to a back injury.
Aug 26, 2022NFLPedal Ankle (high) Sprain Grade 3Montgomery suited up for Week 1, then was placed on IR. ESPN's Mike Reiss reported that that move was due to an upper-body injury, however.
 
chevss454 said:
If Ty Montgomery stays healthy, I'm picking him to bust out this year for the offense whether he plays slot WR or RB.
He has a long history of injury so I realize that's not the way to bet. Just saying this kid has talent.
He reminds me so much of James White.
Click to expand...

Patriots-Lifer said:
I would love for Ty to do something this season. He is a little bigger than Sweet Feet but at 30 years and his injury history I am not all that optimistic

Injury History​

DateLeagueInjuryDetails
Oct 18, 2015NFLPedal Ankle (high) Sprain Grade 3Montgomery never returned after suffering the Week 6 injury. He underwent surgery to address cartilage damage.
Oct 20, 2016NFLAbdomen Kidney BruiseMontgomery spotted blood in his urine after Week 7, likely resulting from his medical condition (Sickle Cell Trait). He missed 1 game.
Sep 28, 2017NFLChest Rib FractureMontgomery went down on the opening drive of Week 4. He missed Week 5 with multiple broken ribs.
Nov 12, 2017NFLChest Rib FractureMontgomery re-injured his ribs against Chicago. He didn't appear in another game, although the Packers placed him on IR with a wrist injury.
Sep 24, 2017NFLHand Wrist Sprain/Pull UnspecifiedMontgomery played through the early-season injury before missing the final 7 games of the season. He was placed on IR on December 1.
Sep 25, 2020NFLThigh Hamstring Strain Grade 2Montgomery was limited in the Saints' practice ahead of the game vs. the Packers due to a hamstring injury. He was put on IR and missed 5 games
Nov 27, 2020NFLThigh Hamstring Sprain/Pull Unspecified Grade 1Montgomery suffered a hamstring injury during Saints' practice. He was ruled out for Week 12 game against the Broncos.
Nov 4, 2021NFLThigh Hamstring Sprain/Pull Unspecified Grade 1Montgomery missed Week 9 against the Falcons due to a hamstring injury.
Nov 14, 2021NFLHand Finger DislocationMontgomery suffered a finger injury in Week 10's game against the Tennessee Titans.
Dec 30, 2021NFLBack Lower Lumbar Sprain/Pull Unspecified Grade 1Montgomery was questionable for Week 17's game against the Panthers due to a back injury.
Aug 26, 2022NFLPedal Ankle (high) Sprain Grade 3Montgomery suited up for Week 1, then was placed on IR. ESPN's Mike Reiss reported that that move was due to an upper-body injury, however.
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He apparently has a medical condition that causes his red blood cells to "sickle" when overworked (through over exertion), at altitude, or under some strain. He has to be very careful when building his stamina and working out. It's not an exaggeration to say that he is literally putting his life on the line to continue to play the game he loves. I'm rooting for him, if this is what he wants.
 
After watching camp, I'm officially higher on Jalen Hurd than I have any right to be. He absolutely should not - NOT - be able to move that silkily at that size. He needs to make some plays with his hands, but holy crap is he a natural athlete. He's not at the same raw speed, but he has that "oily" movement you saw with Randy Moss, except doesn't look as lanky and stringy. He just moves more deceptively, like a running back, than burner, like a WR.

He certainly hasn't proven that he can't play in the NFL, so I'm officially pulling for him to get a chance this year.
 
Patriots-Lifer said:
You are lower on Mac Jones? Why would that be the case? From what I have seen he was not the issue last season. Yes his yards were down but the whole offensive scheme was a total mess.
YearTeamCMP%YDSTDINTRating
2022Patriots65.22,997141184.8
2021Patriots67.63,801221392.5
Career66.56,798362489.0
As a whole the teams offence fell off a cliff but we know the reason for that and it was not Jones
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I mean, the coaching was part of it, but I'm a long way from saying it was the entire problem. That Bailey Zappe, a green af rookie who'd never been in a pro-style offense, could go in there and perform at least as well, if not better than Jones, in the same situation, was pretty eye-opening.

We can pretend that it didn't happen, I suppose, but the results speak for themselves.

Edit: I'm willing to wait and see. But I do need to see.
 
TommyD420 said:
I mean, the coaching was part of it, but I'm a long way from saying it was the entire problem. That Bailey Zappe, a green af rookie who'd never been in a pro-style offense, could go in there and perform at least as well, if not better than Jones, in the same situation, was pretty eye-opening.

We can pretend that it didn't happen, I suppose, but the results speak for themselves.

Edit: I'm willing to wait and see. But I do need to see.
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Oh please Zappe didn't do jack You know as well as most do that he caught some by surprise as the had zero to go on. He has a total of 65 completions in 4 games and the Defenses got him figured out.
 
Patriots-Lifer said:
Oh please Zappe didn't do jack You know as well as most do that he caught some by surprise as the had zero to go on. He has a total of 65 completions in 4 games and the Defenses got him figured out.
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Well Jones was healthy enough to play.

You can tell me he didn't do jack. I saw him move the football in the same dysfunctional offense with an actual pop-gun arm. What I believe about Zappe's potential in the league is irrelevant, when I have actual results that I saw on the field.

For the record, Jones had 288 completions in 14 games. It's not like he was setting the world on fire by your metric, either.
 
TommyD420 said:
I mean, the coaching was part of it, but I'm a long way from saying it was the entire problem. That Bailey Zappe, a green af rookie who'd never been in a pro-style offense, could go in there and perform at least as well, if not better than Jones, in the same situation, was pretty eye-opening.

We can pretend that it didn't happen, I suppose, but the results speak for themselves.

Edit: I'm willing to wait and see. But I do need to see.
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The coaching was damn near all of it. And Mac Jones did a phenomenal job overcoming the ridiculousness of it.

Zappe was given an entirely different playbook the first couple of games, and when they tried to run the Mac offense, he went to shit.

This is all plain to see.

Does that mean that MAC doesn’t have to Pruitt this year? Let’s be real, this is Bill Belichick team. He has to prove it every year as to all of the players.
 
TommyD420 said:
What I believe about Zappe's potential in the league is irrelevant, when I have actual results that I saw on the field.
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And yet your overwhelming DESIRE to ignore Mac Jones rookie year as an obvious example of what he can do with a real NFL offensive playbook and coaching staff is remarkable.
 
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TommyD420 said:
I mean, the coaching was part of it, but I'm a long way from saying it was the entire problem. That Bailey Zappe, a green af rookie who'd never been in a pro-style offense, could go in there and perform at least as well, if not better than Jones, in the same situation, was pretty eye-opening.

We can pretend that it didn't happen, I suppose, but the results speak for themselves.

Edit: I'm willing to wait and see. But I do need to see.
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Whoa, whoa, whoa.

How can you honestly compare Zappe and Mac?

Zappe got a 7-man, max protection line every single time.

Max has never gotten that.
 
PatsFan09 said:
Whoa, whoa, whoa.

How can you honestly compare Zappe and Mac?

Zappe got a 7-man, max protection line every single time.

Max has never gotten that.
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That's a really cool story.

Not accurate, but still a cool story. When Mac came back from injury, they went to the 1970s offense they ran with Zappe, and had some limited success.

Literally no sane person thinks Bailey Zappe is better than Mac Jones. I'm not saying that. What I am saying is, Zappe had the same 'terrible coaching' that Mac Jones had, and somehow, he managed to win games with his bubblegum arm.

That's a thing that happened. Again, we can pretend that it didn't, but it actually did.

That's why I keep saying, it's great Bill O'Brien is here, it's great that they solidified the receiving options a bit, but in the end, it falls on Mac Jones, and he needs to play a fuckton better than he did a year ago, or else it's time to draft another QB and blow it up. 14TDs, 11INTs and less than 3000 yards and a 86 rating is unacceptable play from the QB position in 2023. You can get that from any backup QB in the league.
 
aloyouis said:
And yet your overwhelming DESIRE to ignore Mac Jones rookie year as an obvious example of what he can do with a real NFL offensive playbook and coaching staff is remarkable.
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I'm not ignoring it.
I'm also not ignoring what actually happened in real life, on the field, a season ago.
I'm saying it needs to be better, and I need to actually see it on the field. I really don't feel like that's an unreasonable take.
 
TommyD420 said:
That's a really cool story.

Not accurate, but still a cool story. When Mac came back from injury, they went to the 1970s offense they ran with Zappe, and had some limited success.

Literally no sane person thinks Bailey Zappe is better than Mac Jones. I'm not saying that. What I am saying is, Zappe had the same 'terrible coaching' that Mac Jones had, and somehow, he managed to win games with his bubblegum arm.

That's a thing that happened. Again, we can pretend that it didn't, but it actually did.

That's why I keep saying, it's great Bill O'Brien is here, it's great that they solidified the receiving options a bit, but in the end, it falls on Mac Jones, and he needs to play a fuckton better than he did a year ago, or else it's time to draft another QB and blow it up. 14TDs, 11INTs and less than 3000 yards and a 86 rating is unacceptable play from the QB position in 2023. You can get that from any backup QB in the league.
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What were the ranks of the defenses that Zappe won against?
31st and 32nd, was it? Something like that.
 
TommyD420 said:
That's a really cool story.

Not accurate, but still a cool story. When Mac came back from injury, they went to the 1970s offense they ran with Zappe, and had some limited success.

Literally no sane person thinks Bailey Zappe is better than Mac Jones. I'm not saying that. What I am saying is, Zappe had the same 'terrible coaching' that Mac Jones had, and somehow, he managed to win games with his bubblegum arm.

That's a thing that happened. Again, we can pretend that it didn't, but it actually did.

That's why I keep saying, it's great Bill O'Brien is here, it's great that they solidified the receiving options a bit, but in the end, it falls on Mac Jones, and he needs to play a fuckton better than he did a year ago, or else it's time to draft another QB and blow it up. 14TDs, 11INTs and less than 3000 yards and a 86 rating is unacceptable play from the QB position in 2023. You can get that from any backup QB in the league.
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Silly. How many games did the Pats win with Mac.

You are really reaching Tommy.
 
TommyD420 said:
I'm not ignoring it.
I'm also not ignoring what actually happened in real life, on the field, a season ago.
I'm saying it needs to be better, and I need to actually see it on the field. I really don't feel like that's an unreasonable take.
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But it is. You saw what Mac did with good coaches AS A ROOKIE.

No QB was going to be really good in Patricia’s offense. Last year should be dismissed.
 
aloyouis said:
Silly. How many games did the Pats win with Mac.

You are really reaching Tommy.
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6. In 14 starts.
Zappe won 2 in 2 starts.

What are we even talking about here? We're just pretending this didn't happen now? Mac Jones didn't actually play in 2022 and it's a figment of our collective imaginations?

How is stating a completely verifiable fact a reach?

Again: Bailey Zappe will never be more than a competent backup in the NFL. He has no arm at all, it's actually hilarious.

Mac Jones showed lots of potential his rookie year, there is lots to like, and has shown flashes at times. He didn't last year. It was a regression by any statistical measure.

Mac Jones should be the unquestioned starter on this team. Literally no one is disputing that. He is the best QB on the roster.

Now that we ALL AGREE On that, what I'm saying, is that HE NEEDS TO SHOW ON THE FIELD THAT HE'S A TOP-FLIGHT NFL STARTING QB IN 2023. Saying 'It's all Matt Patricia's Fault' and pretending that 2022 never happened is absolute folly, and again, it's NOT UNREASONABLE to say that.
 
aloyouis said:
But it is. You saw what Mac did with good coaches AS A ROOKIE.

No QB was going to be really good in Patricia’s offense. Last year should be dismissed.
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This is a bonkers take, to me.

It can be mitigated, and we'll see to what degree this season. But to dismiss it completely? That's just bonkers. I'm not in the habit of denying actual verifiable things that I saw with my own eyes.
 
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