A Draft and Career Look Back at Ellis Hobbs, Logan Mankins, and Bethel Johnson

DropKickFlutie

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Reflecting post-draft, it seems the Patriots rolled back the clock and drafted analagous players from 17 years ago. Problem is it might be more reminiscent of the decade-long drought period as opposed to any of the dynasty years. By the way what was Matt Patricia doing so involved in the war room? I feel uneasy knowing he was there and then see we went OG and WR first knowing he is now involved on OLine and offense.
I wonder if Groh/Wolf played second fiddle to BB/Patricia this time given how much this draft smelled like an old BB Patriots type draft (not the good kind).

Draft and career look back:

1. Logan Mankins, analagous to Cole Strange.
Mankins was drafted in the late first round in 2005 to the bewilderment of many. Tough, aggressive, nasty LG. Became a 6 time all pro. Was taken before SF was going to get him. Never won a ring, the Pats went to the Superbowl twice and lost. Mankins left and the Patriots won rings after, in part due to adding Thuney + Mason + Cannon cheap. Mankins was a great player but in my mind a guard/RB is never a good use of 1st round pick value. I expect Strange to be a good player who fills a need after the Patriots self-inflicted this positional need.

2. Bethel Johnson, analagous to Tyquan Thornton.
Johnson was taken in the 2nd round at #45. Blazing fast speed, ran a 4.26 40-time. Problem was he only ran a few routes and never even had a 200-yard season. In general the career records of fastest-WR at the combine, isn't good as the most important criteria for a WR is if they can get open, not 40-time. Johnson never overtook Branch as a reliable receiver, even in the 2006 season when they badly needed a WR to step up. Bethel's lack of development led to another 2nd round epic bust draft pick of Chad Jackson in 2006. Jackson looked smooth in clips but never got the playbook and was a draft bust from day1.

3. Ellis Hobbs, analagous to Marcus Jones.
Hobbs was taken in the 3rd round at #84 in 2005. Small corner with a big heart, and also kick returner. Was never really an elite outside corner. I can't think of a versatile CB/ST guy who ever panned out for the Pats. Still have PTSD seeing Hobbs try to cover a 6'5 WR in the biggest moment of a losing Superbowl, while playing injured on his small frame. This draft period was when the Pats had a completely broken CB scouting method and cycled through 10 crappy small CBs over several years (Terrence Wheatley, etc) before finally fixing it externally via Talib and then Revis several years later. This period using this crappy CB scouting method, the Pats defense was consistently terrible on 3rd down and played too much soft zone. Hobbs lasted 6 seasons in the NFL (ringless).
 
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chevss454

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Mankins was a great player for us and I hope Strange turns out as well.

The only thing Bethel Johnson, Chad Jackson and Ty Thornton have in common is speed. This is a grossly unfair comparison for Thornton.
Bethel Johnson never tried to learn the playbook and never did learn the playbook. Chad Jackson had serious attitude issues - he was lazy, missed meetings or slept right through them.
Fortunately, these days interviews include psych testing and extensive background checks to find out what's going on in the heads of these guys. Thornton had a late Top 30 meeting with the Patriots.
Thornton is far more advanced than either of these guys. He runs crisp, well-sold routes. He's a very natural hands catcher. Snatches the ball away from his body naturally. He is precisely what I have begged for since Moss left. He's what I thought the Patriots needed to open up the middle.
The Pats took him at 50 and 3 of the next 4 picks were WRs. BB knew something which is why he moved up 4 spots to get in front of Pittsburgh. Pickens who is a known headcase went to Pittsburgh at 52, Alec Pierce, more raw than Thornton, went to Indy at 53 and Skyy Moore who is a good versatile WR, went to KC at 54. Skyy Moore was a solid pick but of Pickens and Pierce, Thornton's speed and overall WR skills are superior and just what the Pats needed at X. Skyy Moore is good pick, he's a jacked up Jakobi Meyers, but he's not an X receiver which is what the Pats wanted.

I will let Hawg have the pleasure of answering your comparison of Ellis Hobbs, who was a good player, btw, to Marcus Jones since Hawg called the pick.
 
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DropKickFlutie

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Mankins was a great player for us and I hope Strange turns out as well.

The only thing Bethel Johnson, Chad Jackson and Ty Thornton have in common is speed. This is a grossly unfair comparison for Thornton.
Bethel Johnson never tried to learn the playbook and never did learn the playbook. Chad Jackson had serious attitude issues - he was lazy, missed meetings or slept right through them.
Fortunately, these days interviews include psych testing and extensive background checks to find out what's going on in the heads of these guys. Thornton had a late Top 30 meeting with the Patriots.
Thornton is far more advanced than either of these guys. He runs crisp, well-sold routes. He's a very natural hands catcher. Snatches the ball away from his body naturally. He is precisely what I have begged for since Moss left. He's what I thought the Patriots needed to open up the middle.
The Pats took him at 50 and 3 of the next 4 picks were WRs. BB knew something which is why he moved up 4 spots to get in front of Pittsburgh. Pickens who is a known headcase went to Pittsburgh at 52, Alec Pierce, more raw than Thornton, went to Indy at 53 and Skyy Moore who is a good versatile WR, went to KC at 54. Skyy Moore was a solid pick but of Pickens and Pierce, Thornton's speed and overall WR skills are superior and just what the Pats needed at X. Skyy Moore is good pick, he's a jacked up Jakobi Meyers, but he's not an X receiver which is what the Pats wanted.

I will let Hawg have the pleasure of answering your comparison of Ellis Hobbs, who was a good player, btw, to Marcus Jones since Hawg called the pick.

Nicely said and I hope you're right. But the Pats don't have credibility when it comes to high WR picks, especially if it's using throwback methods.

I will say I'm less concerned about his slow 3cone. Deep threats are totally different types from slot guys. In a deep threat one does want to see excellent release off the line, speed, and can track the ball and beat out someone 1-1. Maybe Thornton is that guy. But the same positive stuff was written about Bethel Johnson and Chad Jackson when they were drafted too.
 

aloyouis

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Reflecting post-draft, it seems the Patriots rolled back the clock and drafted analagous players from 17 years ago. Problem is it might be more reminiscent of the decade-long drought period as opposed to any of the dynasty years. By the way what was Matt Patricia doing so involved in the war room? I feel uneasy knowing he was there and then see we went OG and WR first knowing he is now involved on OLine and offense.
I wonder if Groh/Wolf played second fiddle to BB/Patricia this time given how much this draft smelled like an old BB Patriots type draft (not the good kind).

Draft and career look back:

1. Logan Mankins, analagous to Cole Strange.
Mankins was drafted in the late first round in 2005 to the bewilderment of many. Tough, aggressive, nasty LG. Became a 6 time all pro. Was taken before SF was going to get him. Never won a ring, the Pats went to the Superbowl twice and lost. Mankins left and the Patriots won rings after, in part due to adding Thuney + Mason + Cannon cheap. Mankins was a great player but in my mind a guard/RB is never a good use of 1st round pick value. I expect Strange to be a good player who fills a need after the Patriots self-inflicted this positional need.

2. Bethel Johnson, analagous to Tyquan Thornton.
Johnson was taken in the 2nd round at #45. Blazing fast speed, ran a 4.26 40-time. Problem was he only ran a few routes and never even had a 200-yard season. In general the career records of fastest-WR at the combine, isn't good as the most important criteria for a WR is if they can get open, not 40-time. Johnson never overtook Branch as a reliable receiver, even in the 2006 season when they badly needed a WR to step up. Bethel's lack of development led to another 2nd round epic bust draft pick of Chad Jackson in 2006. Jackson looked smooth in clips but never got the playbook and was a draft bust from day1.

3. Ellis Hobbs, analagous to Marcus Jones.
Hobbs was taken in the 3rd round at #84 in 2005. Small corner with a big heart, and also kick returner. Was never really an elite outside corner. I can't think of a versatile CB/ST guy who ever panned out for the Pats. Still have PTSD seeing Hobbs try to cover a 6'5 WR in the biggest moment of a losing Superbowl, while playing injured on his small frame. This draft period was when the Pats had a completely broken CB scouting method and cycled through 10 crappy small CBs over several years (Terrence Wheatley, etc) before finally fixing it externally via Talib and then Revis several years later. This period using this crappy CB scouting method, the Pats defense was consistently terrible on 3rd down and played too much soft zone. Hobbs lasted 6 seasons in the NFL (ringless).

Nice. Keep this up.
 

chevss454

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Nicely said and I hope you're right. But the Pats don't have credibility when it comes to high WR picks, especially if it's using throwback methods.

I will say I'm less concerned about his slow 3cone. Deep threats are totally different types from slot guys. In a deep threat one does want to see excellent release off the line, speed, and can track the ball and beat out someone 1-1. Maybe Thornton is that guy. But the same positive stuff was written about Bethel Johnson and Chad Jackson when they were drafted too.

Interviews have changed drastically since then to include psych testing.
 
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DropKickFlutie

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Interviews have changed drastically since then to include psych testing.

How recently? Did NKeal Harry and JoeJuan Williams go through the same amazing modern screening. We can diss the Steelers or Chiefs all we want but those teams know wide receiver. I expect Moore and Dickens to be good. Pats consistently seem to pick the no-name WR within a value grouping of more well-known established WR players. Searching for value works in later rounds where we successfully mine for overlooked guys. It seems to backfire in the early rounds when you bypass established SEC players for the same no-name approach.
 
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DropKickFlutie

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I've heard Thornton being comped to Robby Anderson. Thornton only had a 58% catch rate in college.

Here's Robby Anderson's career. He played 6 seasons and put up around 700 yards per season with a 56% catch rate. Just setting expectations for this kid. I hope Thornton is better than Bethel Johnson but if he becomes Robby Anderson he's basically a #3 receiver. And the Pats have a major logjam at WR now, not enough balls and multiple players need to be shipped out to prevent disgruntlement.

 

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Thornton has never had a good QB throw to him before. Not sure how his college stats matter.
 

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We can diss the Steelers or Chiefs all we want but those teams know wide receiver. I
Let's see how well the Chiefs know their WRs since 2010(I can go further but trust me it doesn't get any prettier)

Dexter McCluster(2nd round) - Drafted as a WR, more of a useless hybrid WR/RB, his best year was 52 rec, 511 yards, 2 TD
Jonathan Baldwin(1st round) - Less receptions and TDs than N'Keal Harry in his career, need I say more?
Devon Wylie(4th round) - No receptions, out of football after 2 years
Junior Hemingway(7th round) - 25 receptions, out of football in 3 years
Chris Conley(3rd round) - As Charles Barkley would say, just turrible
Da'Ron Brown(7th round) - Never played in an NFL game
Demarcus Robinson(4th round) - JAG
Tyreek Hill(6th round) - Good heavens they finally hit on one, kind of like how the Pats hit on Edelman huh? I wonder who has more rings....
Jehu Chesson(4th round) - 3 receptions, out of football
Tremon Smith(6th round) - I have no idea, he's listed as a DB for the Texans, never caught a ball in his NFL life, including by interception
Mecole Hardman(2nd round) - The jury is still out on this kid, let's see how he does with teams no longer double teaming Hill constantly
Cornell Powell(5th round) - Has not played an NFL game yet, not sure if he's still on the team

What a resume!

I've been saying this for a long time, people have it in their head that BB is terrible at drafting compared to other teams but not a single person ever actually puts it in real perspective. It's like a punch in the gut isn't it? I'm not saying there haven't been lean years, but when you actually look at it under a microscope, maybe it's not as bad as you think.
 
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chevss454

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Are you going to do the Steelers now?
Colbert has been in charge of the Steelers’ draft since 2000 and has selected 22 wide receivers during that time. Here’s how the picks break down during the Colbert era.

2019-Diontae Johnson (3rd round)

2018-James Washington (2nd round)

2017-JuJu Smith-Schuster (2nd round)

2016-Demarcus Ayers (7th round)

2015-Sammie Coates (3rd round)

2014-Martavis Bryant (4th round)

2013-Markus Wheaton (3rd round)

2013-Justin Brown (6th round)

2012-Toney Clemons (7th round)

2010-Emmanuel Sanders (3rd round)

2010-Antonio Brown (6th round)

2009-Mike Wallace (3rd round)

2008-Limas Sweed (2nd round)

2007-Dallas Baker (7th round)

2006-Santonio Holmes (1st round)

2006-Willie Reid (3rd round)

2005-Fred Gibson (4th round)

2002-Antwaan Randle El (2nd round)

2002-Lee Mays (6th round)

2001-Chris Taylor (7th round)

2000-Troy Edwards (1st round)

2000-Malcolm Johnson (5th round)

In terms of hits, Randle El, Holmes, Brown, Sanders, and Smith-Schuster certainly qualify. Guys like Bryant, Coates, Wallace and Wheaton are borderline players who never lived up to potential but had their moments. The rest of the list was utterly forgettable minus Johnson who has yet to get on the field.

Not exactly awe inspiring with far more draft capital invested than the Pats.
 
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