And to think I thought Miami was decent

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Fully Tilted said:
Fail to realize? What have those WR's done without Brady? You cite the mediocrity of Stokley but leave out the mediocrity of all 3 WRs I mentioned. I also think you're not giving enough credit to both Harrison and Wayne.
Click to expand...

Some of Brady's "lack of talent" he's had:

Caldwell: 2nd Round Pick. 8th Receiver Taken
Gaffney: 2nd Round Pick: 4th Receiver Taken
Gabriel: 5th Round Pick: 19th Receiver Taken
Graham: 1st Round Pick: 2nd TE Taken (after Shockey)
Faulk: 2nd Round Pick: 4th RB Taken (Edge and http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/133448http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/133448[URL="http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/133448"]Ricky Williams[/URL] ahead)
Edwards: 2nd Round Pick: 1st FB Taken
Branch: 2nd Round Pick. 11th Receiver Taken
Stallworth: 1st Round Pick. 1st Receiver Taken
Bethel J.: 2nd Round Pick: 5th Receiver Taken
Maroney: 1st Round Pick: 2nd RB Taken (2 spots AHEAD of Addai)
http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/235054http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/235054[URL="http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/235054"]Heath Evans[/URL]: 3rd Round Pick: 1st FB Taken
http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/1356http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/1356[URL="http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/1356"]Kyle Brady[/URL]: 1st Round Pick: 1st TE Taken
Ben Watson: 1st Round Pick: 2nd TE Taken (after http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/493125http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/493125[URL="http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/493125"]Kellen Winslow[/URL])
http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/12576http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/12576[URL="http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/12576"]Randy Moss[/URL]: 1st Rond Pick: 2nd Receiver Taken
http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/302185http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/302185[URL="http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/302185"]Andre Davis[/URL]: 2nd Round Pick: 7th Receiver Taken
Fauria: 2nd Round Pick: 3rd TE Taken
Zereoue: 3rd Round Pick: 9th RB Taken
Cloud: 2nd Round Pick: 6th RB Taken
Dillon: 2nd Round Pick: 5th RB Taken
A Smith: 1st Round Pick: 2nd RB Taken (behind Dunn ahead of Tiki Barber)
Stokes: 1st Round Pick: 3rd Receiver Taken (#10 Overall)
Ward: 3rd Round Pick: 8th Receiver Taken
Hayes: 4th Round Pick: 16th Receiver Taken
Dwight: 4th Round Pick: 17th Receiver Taken
Redmond: 3rd Round: 7th RB Taken
Cleeland: 2nd Round Pick: 1st TE Taken
Small: 5th Round: 11th Receiver Taken
Emanuel: 2nd Round: 10th Receiver Taken
C Johnson: 1st Round: 1st Receiver Taken
Glenn: 1st Round: 2nd Receiver Taken (#7 Overall)
 
dashoe said:
Some of Brady's "lack of talent" he's had:

Caldwell: 2nd Round Pick. 8th Receiver Taken
Gaffney: 2nd Round Pick: 4th Receiver Taken
Gabriel: 5th Round Pick: 19th Receiver Taken
Graham: 1st Round Pick: 2nd TE Taken (after Shockey)
Faulk: 2nd Round Pick: 4th RB Taken (Edge and http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/133448http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/133448[URL="http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/133448"]Ricky Williams[/URL] ahead)
Edwards: 2nd Round Pick: 1st FB Taken
Branch: 2nd Round Pick. 11th Receiver Taken
Stallworth: 1st Round Pick. 1st Receiver Taken
Bethel J.: 2nd Round Pick: 5th Receiver Taken
Maroney: 1st Round Pick: 2nd RB Taken (2 spots AHEAD of Addai)
http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/235054http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/235054[URL="http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/235054"]Heath Evans[/URL]: 3rd Round Pick: 1st FB Taken
http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/1356http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/1356[URL="http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/1356"]Kyle Brady[/URL]: 1st Round Pick: 1st TE Taken
Ben Watson: 1st Round Pick: 2nd TE Taken (after http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/493125http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/493125[URL="http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/493125"]Kellen Winslow[/URL])
http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/12576http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/12576[URL="http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/12576"]Randy Moss[/URL]: 1st Rond Pick: 2nd Receiver Taken
http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/302185http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/302185[URL="http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/302185"]Andre Davis[/URL]: 2nd Round Pick: 7th Receiver Taken
Fauria: 2nd Round Pick: 3rd TE Taken
Zereoue: 3rd Round Pick: 9th RB Taken
Cloud: 2nd Round Pick: 6th RB Taken
Dillon: 2nd Round Pick: 5th RB Taken
A Smith: 1st Round Pick: 2nd RB Taken (behind Dunn ahead of Tiki Barber)
Stokes: 1st Round Pick: 3rd Receiver Taken (#10 Overall)
Ward: 3rd Round Pick: 8th Receiver Taken
Hayes: 4th Round Pick: 16th Receiver Taken
Dwight: 4th Round Pick: 17th Receiver Taken
Redmond: 3rd Round: 7th RB Taken
Cleeland: 2nd Round Pick: 1st TE Taken
Small: 5th Round: 11th Receiver Taken
Emanuel: 2nd Round: 10th Receiver Taken
C Johnson: 1st Round: 1st Receiver Taken
Glenn: 1st Round: 2nd Receiver Taken (#7 Overall)
Click to expand...

It doesn't really matter where they were taken. Most of the players on that list stunk. Just look at their numbers.
 
jaric said:
Did Tom Brady ever win a national championship in college?

Matt Cassel?

I don't think so. What a group of losers.

Tee Martin >>>> Tom Brady, Matt Cassel, and Peyton Manning COMBINED!
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Sorry brady didnt play for the vols. manning and T martin did. I was making reference to dashoe on his thought that a Qb could come on the pats and *gasp not fall on his face means obvioulsy brady is only a system QB.
 
Fully Tilted said:
50 TD season AFTER Spygate. You're PP's version of wiffleball you know that?
Click to expand...
Reche Caldwell:

2006 With Tom Brady: 61 catches, 760 yards, 12.5 YPC, 4 TD's
2004 W/ Brees & Flutie: 18 catches, 310 yards, 17.2 YPC, 3 TD's

In this case, Reche played all 16 games with Tom compared to just 6 games (really only 5 full games due to injury) with Drew Brees and the 762 year old Doug Flutie. So for the sake of comparison, if we pro-rated out his numbers

Jabar Gaffney:

With Houston: Averaged 43 catches, 502 yards, 11.7 YPC, 2 TD's
With Patriots: Averaged 24 catches, 296 yards, 12.6 YPC, 3 TD's

In Houston, Gaffney started out as a rookie and had David Carr, Tony Banks, Dave Ragone as his QB's starting multiple games there.

Doug Gabriel:

2006 With Brady: 25 catches, 344 yards, 13.8 YPC, 3 TD's
2005 W/ Oakland: 37 catches, 554 yards, 15.0 YPC, 3 TD's

Daniel Graham:

With Brady: Averaged 24 catches, 278 yards, 11.6 YPC, 3 TD's
W/Out Tom: Averaged 24 catches, 246 yards, 10.3 YPC, 2 TD's

Kevin Faulk:

2003 With Brady: 1,078 Yards From Scrimmage, 3.6 Yards Per Carry, 9.2 Yards Per Catch, 0 Rushing TD's, 0 Receiving TD's
2000 W/ Bledsoe: 1,035 Yards From Scrimmage, 3.5 Yards Per Carry, 9.1 Yards Per Catch, 4 Rushing TD's, 1 Receiving TD

Deion Branch:

With Brady: Averaged 53 catches, 686 yards, 12.9 YPC, 3.5 TD's
W/Out Tom: Averaged 51 catches, 693 yards, 13.6 YPC, 4 TD's

Branch has played in 25 games in Seattle... 5 of those with [URL="http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/396113"]Seneca Wallace[/URL] at them helm. In fact, Branch would have caught more TD's with Seneca Wallace pro-rated to an entire season than he ever did with Tom Brady.
He was injured in Seattle was well. If we pro-rate his numbers in Seattle last year, he would have had: 71 catches, 962 yards, 13.5 YPC, 6 TD's. That's right up there with Tom where he put up 78 catches, 998 yards, 12.8 YPC, 5 TD's. Moreover, he got hurt in the 5th game of the season and was never the same after. The three games prior to getting injured, he put up:

7 catches for 122 yards
6 catches for 77 yards and a TD
7 catches for 130 yards
He never had a stretch like that with Brady. In fact, he only had four 100 yard games in his entire 4 seasons with Brady and never even had a mulitple TD game like he did in Seattle.
The guy tore his ACL and his entire career is in jeopardy.

Donte Stallworth:

2007 With Brady: 46 catches, 697 yards, 15.2 YPC, 3 TD's
2006 W/ Eagles: 38 catches, 725 yards, 19.1 YPC, 5 TD's
2005 W/ Saints: 70 catches, 945 yards, 13.5 YPC, 7 TD's

Randy Moss:

2007 With Brady: 98 catches, 1493 yards, 15.2 YPC, 23 TD's
2003 W/ Vikings: 111 catches, 1,632 yards, 14.7 YPC, 17 TD's

Note: He had both Daunte Culpepper and Gus Frerotte starting multiple games that year. In fact, Randy has a higher YPC average for his CAREER in both Minnesota AND Oakland than what he did last year with Brady. Moreover, Randy has done better in receptions, yards, yards per catch, yards per game, longer receptions, etc elsewhere than with Tom. The only area he did better with Tom was in TD's (because Tom knew where his bread and butter was).

David Patten:

With Brady: Averaged 41 catches, 628 yards, 15.2 YPC, 4 TD's
With Brees: Averaged 54 catches, 792 yards, 14.7 YPC, 3 TD's
(Patten started 82% of his games with Brady compared to 31% with Brees)

Wes Welker:
So this guy comes from a horrible team to the best team and does well. Then all the Tom lovers say, "Look at Wes!" LOL I'm sure Randy Moss and Donte Stallworth's speed in stretching the field vertically didn't have anything to do with Welker's success in the underneath patterns. Let's look a little closer at Wes:
2006 Miami: 2 games started, 67 catches, 687 yards, 10.3 YPC, 1 TD
2007 Pats: 13 games started,112 catches, 1,175 yards, 10.5 YPC, 8 TD's
So the team threw more to him, he had virtually the same YPC (he had 434 yards and a 15.0 YPC in 2004) and more TD's because his team didn't suck. But yeah, that's all Tom Brady I'm sure.


To put it in perspective:

Now let's compare him to another receiver, say Brandon Stokley:
The best Brandon had ever done prior to coming to Indy was the following:
2001 Ravens: 5 games started, 24 catches, 344 yards, 14.3 YPC, 2 TD's
2004 Colts: 3 games started, 68 catches, 1,077 yards, 15.8 YPC, 10 TD's


I rest my case. :coffee:
 
dashoe said:
Some of Brady's "lack of talent" he's had:

Caldwell: 2nd Round Pick. 8th Receiver Taken
Gaffney: 2nd Round Pick: 4th Receiver Taken
Gabriel: 5th Round Pick: 19th Receiver Taken
Graham: 1st Round Pick: 2nd TE Taken (after Shockey)
Faulk: 2nd Round Pick: 4th RB Taken (Edge and http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/133448http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/133448[URL="http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/133448"]Ricky Williams[/URL] ahead)
Edwards: 2nd Round Pick: 1st FB Taken
Branch: 2nd Round Pick. 11th Receiver Taken
Stallworth: 1st Round Pick. 1st Receiver Taken
Bethel J.: 2nd Round Pick: 5th Receiver Taken
Maroney: 1st Round Pick: 2nd RB Taken (2 spots AHEAD of Addai)
http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/235054http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/235054[URL="http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/235054"]Heath Evans[/URL]: 3rd Round Pick: 1st FB Taken
http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/1356http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/1356[URL="http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/1356"]Kyle Brady[/URL]: 1st Round Pick: 1st TE Taken
Ben Watson: 1st Round Pick: 2nd TE Taken (after http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/493125http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/493125[URL="http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/493125"]Kellen Winslow[/URL])
http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/12576http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/12576[URL="http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/12576"]Randy Moss[/URL]: 1st Rond Pick: 2nd Receiver Taken
http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/302185http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/302185[URL="http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/302185"]Andre Davis[/URL]: 2nd Round Pick: 7th Receiver Taken
Fauria: 2nd Round Pick: 3rd TE Taken
Zereoue: 3rd Round Pick: 9th RB Taken
Cloud: 2nd Round Pick: 6th RB Taken
Dillon: 2nd Round Pick: 5th RB Taken
A Smith: 1st Round Pick: 2nd RB Taken (behind Dunn ahead of Tiki Barber)
Stokes: 1st Round Pick: 3rd Receiver Taken (#10 Overall)
Ward: 3rd Round Pick: 8th Receiver Taken
Hayes: 4th Round Pick: 16th Receiver Taken
Dwight: 4th Round Pick: 17th Receiver Taken
Redmond: 3rd Round: 7th RB Taken
Cleeland: 2nd Round Pick: 1st TE Taken
Small: 5th Round: 11th Receiver Taken
Emanuel: 2nd Round: 10th Receiver Taken
C Johnson: 1st Round: 1st Receiver Taken
Glenn: 1st Round: 2nd Receiver Taken (#7 Overall)
Click to expand...




Since when did where a player was taken mean they are great in the NFL? Harrison 1st round, wayne, 2nd round, addai, 1st round, gonzales 1st round. Geez manning has 1st and second rounders everywhere on his offense. Welker was not drafted and was let go by two teams, gaffney was not even playing in the league when the pats got him in 2006. Caudwell I dont even think is in the league anymore, but his best success was with brady, go figure. How are branch and givens doing without brady? I rest my case. LOL, I like how you have Bethal Johnson on your list as a great player brady played with, and hell I dont think Glenn even played much in 2001 if I remember, he was throwing to Troy Brown as his number 1. But your biggest stupidity has to be that you put when a player was drafted as how good he was in teh NFL.
 
midgar8784 said:
Since when did where a player was taken mean they are great in the NFL? Harrison 1st round, wayne, 2nd round, addai, 1st round, gonzales 1st round. Geez manning has 1st and second rounders everywhere on his offense. Welker was not drafted and was let go by two teams, gaffney was not even playing in the league when the pats got him in 2006. Caudwell I dont even think is in the league anymore, but his best success was with brady, go figure. How are branch and givens doing without brady? I rest my case. LOL, I like how you have Bethal Johnson on your list as a great player brady played with, and hell I dont think Glenn even played much in 2001 if I remember, he was throwing to Troy Brown as his number 1. But your biggest stupidity has to be that you put when a player was drafted as how good he was in teh NFL.
Click to expand...

You both can argue all that you want, but yes Tom Brady has had tons of talented people around him.

Either way, good receivers are only made by a good offensive lines and a solid running back.

I have always given props to NE for having one of the most dominate lines for the last several years. If they didn't have that good of a line, Brady wouldn't be a Super Model because he would have his face crunched together.
 
dashoe said:
Reche Caldwell:

2006 With Tom Brady: 61 catches, 760 yards, 12.5 YPC, 4 TD's
2004 W/ Brees & Flutie: 18 catches, 310 yards, 17.2 YPC, 3 TD's

In this case, Reche played all 16 games with Tom compared to just 6 games (really only 5 full games due to injury) with Drew Brees and the 762 year old Doug Flutie. So for the sake of comparison, if we pro-rated out his numbers

Jabar Gaffney:

With Houston: Averaged 43 catches, 502 yards, 11.7 YPC, 2 TD's
With Patriots: Averaged 24 catches, 296 yards, 12.6 YPC, 3 TD's

In Houston, Gaffney started out as a rookie and had David Carr, Tony Banks, Dave Ragone as his QB's starting multiple games there.

Doug Gabriel:

2006 With Brady: 25 catches, 344 yards, 13.8 YPC, 3 TD's
2005 W/ Oakland: 37 catches, 554 yards, 15.0 YPC, 3 TD's

Daniel Graham:

With Brady: Averaged 24 catches, 278 yards, 11.6 YPC, 3 TD's
W/Out Tom: Averaged 24 catches, 246 yards, 10.3 YPC, 2 TD's

Kevin Faulk:

2003 With Brady: 1,078 Yards From Scrimmage, 3.6 Yards Per Carry, 9.2 Yards Per Catch, 0 Rushing TD's, 0 Receiving TD's
2000 W/ Bledsoe: 1,035 Yards From Scrimmage, 3.5 Yards Per Carry, 9.1 Yards Per Catch, 4 Rushing TD's, 1 Receiving TD

Deion Branch:

With Brady: Averaged 53 catches, 686 yards, 12.9 YPC, 3.5 TD's
W/Out Tom: Averaged 51 catches, 693 yards, 13.6 YPC, 4 TD's

Branch has played in 25 games in Seattle... 5 of those with [URL="http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/396113"]Seneca Wallace[/URL] at them helm. In fact, Branch would have caught more TD's with Seneca Wallace pro-rated to an entire season than he ever did with Tom Brady.
He was injured in Seattle was well. If we pro-rate his numbers in Seattle last year, he would have had: 71 catches, 962 yards, 13.5 YPC, 6 TD's. That's right up there with Tom where he put up 78 catches, 998 yards, 12.8 YPC, 5 TD's. Moreover, he got hurt in the 5th game of the season and was never the same after. The three games prior to getting injured, he put up:

7 catches for 122 yards
6 catches for 77 yards and a TD
7 catches for 130 yards
He never had a stretch like that with Brady. In fact, he only had four 100 yard games in his entire 4 seasons with Brady and never even had a mulitple TD game like he did in Seattle.
The guy tore his ACL and his entire career is in jeopardy.

Donte Stallworth:

2007 With Brady: 46 catches, 697 yards, 15.2 YPC, 3 TD's
2006 W/ Eagles: 38 catches, 725 yards, 19.1 YPC, 5 TD's
2005 W/ Saints: 70 catches, 945 yards, 13.5 YPC, 7 TD's

Randy Moss:

2007 With Brady: 98 catches, 1493 yards, 15.2 YPC, 23 TD's
2003 W/ Vikings: 111 catches, 1,632 yards, 14.7 YPC, 17 TD's

Note: He had both Daunte Culpepper and Gus Frerotte starting multiple games that year. In fact, Randy has a higher YPC average for his CAREER in both Minnesota AND Oakland than what he did last year with Brady. Moreover, Randy has done better in receptions, yards, yards per catch, yards per game, longer receptions, etc elsewhere than with Tom. The only area he did better with Tom was in TD's (because Tom knew where his bread and butter was).

David Patten:

With Brady: Averaged 41 catches, 628 yards, 15.2 YPC, 4 TD's
With Brees: Averaged 54 catches, 792 yards, 14.7 YPC, 3 TD's
(Patten started 82% of his games with Brady compared to 31% with Brees)

Wes Welker:
So this guy comes from a horrible team to the best team and does well. Then all the Tom lovers say, "Look at Wes!" LOL I'm sure Randy Moss and Donte Stallworth's speed in stretching the field vertically didn't have anything to do with Welker's success in the underneath patterns. Let's look a little closer at Wes:
2006 Miami: 2 games started, 67 catches, 687 yards, 10.3 YPC, 1 TD
2007 Pats: 13 games started,112 catches, 1,175 yards, 10.5 YPC, 8 TD's
So the team threw more to him, he had virtually the same YPC (he had 434 yards and a 15.0 YPC in 2004) and more TD's because his team didn't suck. But yeah, that's all Tom Brady I'm sure.


To put it in perspective:

Now let's compare him to another receiver, say Brandon Stokley:
The best Brandon had ever done prior to coming to Indy was the following:
2001 Ravens: 5 games started, 24 catches, 344 yards, 14.3 YPC, 2 TD's
2004 Colts: 3 games started, 68 catches, 1,077 yards, 15.8 YPC, 10 TD's


I rest my case. :coffee:
Click to expand...



LMAO, you rest your case? Moss set a freaking TD record with brady in his first year to ever play with him. Brady spreads the ball around to many players. Why are you not using what caudwell did with any other team? Gabriel hardly played here, gaffney was third receiver here. You say a player does not play games elswhere but when they are with Tom, you dont say at all how much they played, you just give a stat like you did with gabriel. LMAO. I like how you pro rate some numbers and not others. My god that might be the biased stupidity I have ever seen. You gave moss's best year but ignored the 3 years before he got to NE, and you didnt average that one, like you did the others. lol. Damn you worked long and hard to slant this thing.
 
Dawsonstouchbac said:
You both can argue all that you want, but yes Tom Brady has had tons of talented people around him.

Either way, good receivers are only made by a good offensive lines and a solid running back.

I have always given props to NE for having one of the most dominate lines for the last several years. If they didn't have that good of a line, Brady wouldn't be a Super Model because he would have his face crunched together.
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So the line is great? If its just the line, why before brady got there was bledsoe sacked 50 something times, and when cassel took over this year he lead the league in sacks taken? Name me all the pro bowl receivers Tom Had on offense prior to 2007. Go.
 
midgar8784 said:
LMAO, you rest your case? Moss set a freaking TD record with brady in his first year to ever play with him. Brady spreads the ball around to many players. Why are you not using what caudwell did with any other team? Gabriel hardly played here, gaffney was third receiver here. You say a player does not play games elswhere but when they are with Tom, you dont say at all how much they played, you just give a stat like you did with gabriel. LMAO. I like how you pro rate some numbers and not others. My god that might be the biased stupidity I have ever seen. You gave moss's best year but ignored the 3 years before he got to NE, and you didnt average that one, like you did the others. lol. Damn you worked long and hard to slant this thing.
Click to expand...

Brandon Stokley was a 3rd WR, too. :shrug: It didn't matter.

I gave the best season's with and without Brady. The are virtually the same with "lesser" QB's. Moss had 17 TD's with Culpepper AND Gus Ferrotte!

Think whatever you want. To pretend that Tom is some legend in his own time, making all the skill players around him great is simply sheer delusion. Why not just come to the reality that he does well in the SYSTEM that he is in. He minimizes turnovers and has allowed his defense to win games for him for the vast, vast majority of his career.
 
dashoe said:
Think whatever you want. To pretend that Tom is some legend in his own time, making all the skill players around him great is simply sheer delusion. Why not just come to the reality that he does well in the SYSTEM that he is in.
Click to expand...

Sounds like Manning. He's had more talent but has had less results:thumb:
 
dashoe said:
Reche Caldwell:

2006 With Tom Brady: 61 catches, 760 yards, 12.5 YPC, 4 TD's
2004 W/ Brees & Flutie: 18 catches, 310 yards, 17.2 YPC, 3 TD's

In this case, Reche played all 16 games with Tom compared to just 6 games (really only 5 full games due to injury) with Drew Brees and the 762 year old Doug Flutie. So for the sake of comparison, if we pro-rated out his numbers

Jabar Gaffney:

With Houston: Averaged 43 catches, 502 yards, 11.7 YPC, 2 TD's
With Patriots: Averaged 24 catches, 296 yards, 12.6 YPC, 3 TD's

In Houston, Gaffney started out as a rookie and had David Carr, Tony Banks, Dave Ragone as his QB's starting multiple games there.

Doug Gabriel:

2006 With Brady: 25 catches, 344 yards, 13.8 YPC, 3 TD's
2005 W/ Oakland: 37 catches, 554 yards, 15.0 YPC, 3 TD's

Daniel Graham:

With Brady: Averaged 24 catches, 278 yards, 11.6 YPC, 3 TD's
W/Out Tom: Averaged 24 catches, 246 yards, 10.3 YPC, 2 TD's

Kevin Faulk:

2003 With Brady: 1,078 Yards From Scrimmage, 3.6 Yards Per Carry, 9.2 Yards Per Catch, 0 Rushing TD's, 0 Receiving TD's
2000 W/ Bledsoe: 1,035 Yards From Scrimmage, 3.5 Yards Per Carry, 9.1 Yards Per Catch, 4 Rushing TD's, 1 Receiving TD

Deion Branch:

With Brady: Averaged 53 catches, 686 yards, 12.9 YPC, 3.5 TD's
W/Out Tom: Averaged 51 catches, 693 yards, 13.6 YPC, 4 TD's

Branch has played in 25 games in Seattle... 5 of those with [URL="http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/396113"]Seneca Wallace[/URL] at them helm. In fact, Branch would have caught more TD's with Seneca Wallace pro-rated to an entire season than he ever did with Tom Brady.
He was injured in Seattle was well. If we pro-rate his numbers in Seattle last year, he would have had: 71 catches, 962 yards, 13.5 YPC, 6 TD's. That's right up there with Tom where he put up 78 catches, 998 yards, 12.8 YPC, 5 TD's. Moreover, he got hurt in the 5th game of the season and was never the same after. The three games prior to getting injured, he put up:

7 catches for 122 yards
6 catches for 77 yards and a TD
7 catches for 130 yards
He never had a stretch like that with Brady. In fact, he only had four 100 yard games in his entire 4 seasons with Brady and never even had a mulitple TD game like he did in Seattle.
The guy tore his ACL and his entire career is in jeopardy.

Donte Stallworth:

2007 With Brady: 46 catches, 697 yards, 15.2 YPC, 3 TD's
2006 W/ Eagles: 38 catches, 725 yards, 19.1 YPC, 5 TD's
2005 W/ Saints: 70 catches, 945 yards, 13.5 YPC, 7 TD's

Randy Moss:

2007 With Brady: 98 catches, 1493 yards, 15.2 YPC, 23 TD's
2003 W/ Vikings: 111 catches, 1,632 yards, 14.7 YPC, 17 TD's

Note: He had both Daunte Culpepper and Gus Frerotte starting multiple games that year. In fact, Randy has a higher YPC average for his CAREER in both Minnesota AND Oakland than what he did last year with Brady. Moreover, Randy has done better in receptions, yards, yards per catch, yards per game, longer receptions, etc elsewhere than with Tom. The only area he did better with Tom was in TD's (because Tom knew where his bread and butter was).

David Patten:

With Brady: Averaged 41 catches, 628 yards, 15.2 YPC, 4 TD's
With Brees: Averaged 54 catches, 792 yards, 14.7 YPC, 3 TD's
(Patten started 82% of his games with Brady compared to 31% with Brees)

Wes Welker:
So this guy comes from a horrible team to the best team and does well. Then all the Tom lovers say, "Look at Wes!" LOL I'm sure Randy Moss and Donte Stallworth's speed in stretching the field vertically didn't have anything to do with Welker's success in the underneath patterns. Let's look a little closer at Wes:
2006 Miami: 2 games started, 67 catches, 687 yards, 10.3 YPC, 1 TD
2007 Pats: 13 games started,112 catches, 1,175 yards, 10.5 YPC, 8 TD's
So the team threw more to him, he had virtually the same YPC (he had 434 yards and a 15.0 YPC in 2004) and more TD's because his team didn't suck. But yeah, that's all Tom Brady I'm sure.


To put it in perspective:

Now let's compare him to another receiver, say Brandon Stokley:
The best Brandon had ever done prior to coming to Indy was the following:
2001 Ravens: 5 games started, 24 catches, 344 yards, 14.3 YPC, 2 TD's
2004 Colts: 3 games started, 68 catches, 1,077 yards, 15.8 YPC, 10 TD's


I rest my case. :coffee:
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LOL, Im going to butch this biased piece of crap up.

Caudwell. before brady hardly played. Here is his catches by year...22, 8, 18, 28, 61, 15. Guess which one was with brady? You cannot pro rate cause the guy was not good enough to play for a team, idiot, that would be like me taking a great game cloud had in 2006 and saying I will pro rate that and he has 2000 yards rushing. By the way caudwell only started 14 games for the pats, it was by far his best year ever and ever will be.


Gaffeny-He is the third wideout in NE, he was houstons high draft pick and he did so great there, they cut him and he sat at home with nobody picking him up until the pats did. Yeah good call on that one. lol what a stud he was for houston.

gabriel-He was in on about 30 plays in his NE career and you compare that to his time with the raiders??? ROFL. Gabriel would get in on a couple plays in a game and that was about it, they cut him and I am not sure where he is at now.


Graham-its funny what you average with some players but leave how games played, but are sure to do it with others. Graham started with NE games, 6, 9, 14, 11, 12. In denver, his only time without brady, he started 15 games, more than any time of his career, you take that number in 15 games and use it as an average against all of his years in NE where he never started 15 games ever. LMAO Anyway in his most games started in NE which was 14, he had 30 catches 364 yards and 7 td's, in his 15 game season with denver he had 24 catches 246 yards and 2 td's. Case rested.

Kevin faulk-This one was just funny, you took when faulk played 9 years ago with bledsoe when he was a starting back in most games and compared that to when he was 9 years older and a 3rd down back with brady, thats pretty funny.

Branch- more of your selective math. Branch started games with NE...7,12, 9, 15. With sea 14, 11. You averaged in years he missed half the games with two years with sea which he played 14 and 11. LOL So taking branches most games with NE which was 15 he had 78 catches 998 yards 5 td's His 14 games with seattle he had 53 catches 725 yards 4 td's and oh yeah he won a superbowl mvp with brady.

randy Moss- here is my favorite. You didnt average this one like the others you took his best year and averaged it with the pats first year ignored any years prior to going to the pats, yet you avearged other receivers if it fit your criteria. lol Moss set a TD record with the pats he had 98 catches and 1500 yards, now the kicker, he did it as the second receiver, welker had 112 catches for the pats.

Wes Welker-I like how you just jumped over this one. Welker was cut by the chargers. Miami picked him up. He actually caught more balls with miami than ny other receiver, but here is the kicker, his high was 67 catches for 687 yards 1 td. The very next year with brady 112 catches 1175 yards 8 td's.

I think the case has really been rested now.
 
Dashoe--honestly. There are so many holes in your diatribe it's not even funny. Seneca Wallace pro-rated stats??? ROFL I love how for some players you used 'averages' and other players you cherry-picked seasons. Also your Jabar Gaffney stats actually seem made up. Here's his pro-football refernce page. Not sure where you're getting '24 catches' from :shrug:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GaffJa00.htm

Congrats on finding Doug Gabriel's one season where he was firmly affixed in mediocrity.

Daniel Graham? Of course he was mostly used as a blocking TE while the like of Watson was the receiving TE. Try again.

KEVIN FAULK!!!!???!?!?! Shirley you can't be serious. You used stats from 2003 and 2000!!!! I'm sure Brady's never improved there, nevermind the changes in coaching staff and offensive schemes, I mean surely a guy like Kevin Faulk was only used in one role throughout the years. ROFL

It'd be nice if you used 'games played' for everyone when bringing up players like Donte Stallworth, who by the way was a sidekick in a RECORD BREAKING OFFENSE.




Oh and only when it comes to Wes Welker does your stance change on other receivers. For every other player who played key roles before coming to NE you only mention their stats but not how they fit into their offense. Now with Welker it's, "But, but, but, but Randy stretches the field".


Please try a hint of objectivity and you'll be taken seriously. I seem to remember reading a post of yours on a Colts board praising TB saying, "He just gets it done". You're a phony.
 
Fully Tilted said:
Dashoe--honestly. There are so many holes in your diatribe it's not even funny. Seneca Wallace pro-rated stats??? ROFL I love how for some players you used 'averages' and other players you cherry-picked seasons. Also your Jabar Gaffney stats actually seem made up. Here's his pro-football refernce page. Not sure where you're getting '24 catches' from :shrug:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GaffJa00.htm

Congrats on finding Doug Gabriel's one season where he was firmly affixed in mediocrity.

Daniel Graham? Of course he was mostly used as a blocking TE while the like of Watson was the receiving TE. Try again.

KEVIN FAULK!!!!???!?!?! Shirley you can't be serious. You used stats from 2003 and 2000!!!! I'm sure Brady's never improved there, nevermind the changes in coaching staff and offensive schemes, I mean surely a guy like Kevin Faulk was only used in one role throughout the years. ROFL

It'd be nice if you used 'games played' for everyone when bringing up players like Donte Stallworth, who by the way was a sidekick in a RECORD BREAKING OFFENSE.




Oh and only when it comes to Wes Welker does your stance change on other receivers. For every other player who played key roles before coming to NE you only mention their stats but not how they fit into their offense. Now with Welker it's, "But, but, but, but Randy stretches the field".


Please try a hint of objectivity and you'll be taken seriously. I seem to remember reading a post of yours on a Colts board praising TB saying, "He just gets it done". You're a phony.
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Did you read my post above? I broke it all down. You can see what he did. It was masterful the way he changed things to suit his argument but did other things to other players to make it look worse.
 
midgar8784 said:
Sorry brady didnt play for the vols. manning and T martin did. I was making reference to dashoe on his thought that a Qb could come on the pats and *gasp not fall on his face means obvioulsy brady is only a system QB.
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It was a joke dood.
 
midgar8784 said:
Did you read my post above? I broke it all down. You can see what he did. It was masterful the way he changed things to suit his argument but did other things to other players to make it look worse.
Click to expand...

I just did. It's awesome how Dashoe pro-rates certain players but not others and doesn't provide games played. ROFL


I think he's just bored.
 
This was used to illustrate that many of these players that most fans call "crap" or that say "Tom doesn't have any talent around him" actually produced solid numbers elsewhere. Amazing how they can be good somewhere else, just not on the team with "one of the (supposed) best QB's in the history of the game." LOL

I can only come to the following conclusions:

1) The Patriots can draft and acquire players better than any other team in the NFL at EVERY SINGLE POSITION EXCEPT FOR TOM'S SKILL PLAYERS.

2) It just happened to be coincidence that almost all of the guys above happened to not live up to potential in New England (despite almost everyone doing as well or better elsewhere).

3) Tom isn't making these players better and a back up QB(who hasn't started a game since highschool, is producing on the level of "The Great One".

Considering all of the evidence above, Option #1 seems like an astronomical long shot. Option #2 is an even bigger long shot than Option #1. Then you factor in how the other players did better elsewhere and that leaves Option #3.
 
dashoe said:
This was used to illustrate that many of these players that most fans call "crap" or that say "Tom doesn't have any talent around him" actually produced solid numbers elsewhere. Amazing how they can be good somewhere else, just not on the team with "one of the (supposed) best QB's in the history of the game." LOL

I can only come to the following conclusions:

1) The Patriots can draft and acquire players better than any other team in the NFL at EVERY SINGLE POSITION EXCEPT FOR TOM'S SKILL PLAYERS.

2) It just happened to be coincidence that almost all of the guys above happened to not live up to potential in New England (despite almost everyone doing as well or better elsewhere).

3) Tom isn't making these players better and a back up QB(who hasn't started a game since highschool, is producing on the level of "The Great One".

Considering all of the evidence above, Option #1 seems like an astronomical long shot. Option #2 is an even bigger long shot than Option #1. Then you factor in how the other players did better elsewhere and that leaves Option #3.
Click to expand...

ROFL


You failed. Miserably. You illustrated that you can manipulate stats. That's all.
 
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