Are you happy with Mike Vrabel as head coach?

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Mazz22 said:
It has crossed my mind that perhaps the players have lost some regard for him after the horrific offseason. We had a whole thread discussion on this back then in terms of the ripple effects when someone in leadership behaves in a way that contradicts the standards they preach.

Vrabel has spent a lot of time talking about accountability, discipline, avoiding distractions and doing what's best for the team. Then he became the biggest distraction in the building.

That doesn't mean the players suddenly hate him or won't play for him. But leadership depends on more than the title. It depends on credibility. And once credibility takes a hit, the dynamic can change in ways that aren't necessarily visible when you're winning.

Now they're losing, they're sloppy, and Vrabel himself is talking about the team's attitude and energy. I think it's fair to at least wonder whether we're seeing some of the ripple effects of an offseason that did real damage to his authority in that locker room.
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Obviously something is broke and needs fixing, I can't help but think it has something to do with that mess with our HC.

What was this guy thinking, yep, he wasn't.

i did wear my Pats ball cap around, not anymore yep, ashame.

If we get totally destroyed by Buffallo it will be time to start getting serious about going in another direction.
 
Mazz22 said:
It has crossed my mind that perhaps the players have lost some regard for him after the horrific offseason. We had a whole thread discussion on this back then in terms of the ripple effects when someone in leadership behaves in a way that contradicts the standards they preach.

Vrabel has spent a lot of time talking about accountability, discipline, avoiding distractions and doing what's best for the team. Then he became the biggest distraction in the building.

That doesn't mean the players suddenly hate him or won't play for him. But leadership depends on more than the title. It depends on credibility. And once credibility takes a hit, the dynamic can change in ways that aren't necessarily visible when you're winning.

Now they're losing, they're sloppy, and Vrabel himself is talking about the team's attitude and energy. I think it's fair to at least wonder whether we're seeing some of the ripple effects of an offseason that did real damage to his authority in that locker room.
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Respectfully, I don't think this is true at all and anything that perpetuates the discussion as such is nothing more than sports talk radio fodder.

Many pro athletes are unscrupulous a-holes who behave the same way (or worse) off the field. The majority of the players in that locker room don't care one bit about the sanctity of anyone else's relationship. If anything, I'd be willing to bet this makes him appear more human to a lot of guys in that locker room and they've embraced him more as a result.

Now, for those who want to say "Well that's disgusting," sorry to tell you... a lot of these guys who we root for aren't the greatest human beings in the world to begin with.
 
3 Point Stan said:
Respectfully, I don't think this is true at all and anything that perpetuates the discussion as such is nothing more than sports talk radio fodder.

Many pro athletes are unscrupulous a-holes who behave the same way (or worse) off the field. The majority of the players in that locker room don't care one bit about the sanctity of anyone else's relationship. If anything, I'd be willing to bet this makes him appear more human to a lot of guys in that locker room and they've embraced him more as a result.

Now, for those who want to say "Well that's disgusting," sorry to tell you... a lot of these guys who we root for aren't the greatest human beings in the world to begin with.
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Couldn't be more wrong, I played football if our HC had pulled that he'll need to cool telling us a damn thing, he has lost our respect.

Watch what happens if Buffalo kicks ass.
 
Dacron Dakar said:
Couldn't be more wrong, I played football if our HC had pulled that he'll need to cool telling us a damn thing, he has lost our respect.

Watch what happens if Buffalo kicks ass.
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When you went to school, the earth was flat and the football was a solid piece of granite.

HS football and pro football could not possibly be less comparable in this scenario. It wasn't back then, and it certainly isn't now.
 
3 Point Stan said:
Respectfully, I don't think this is true at all and anything that perpetuates the discussion as such is nothing more than sports talk radio fodder.

Many pro athletes are unscrupulous a-holes who behave the same way (or worse) off the field. The majority of the players in that locker room don't care one bit about the sanctity of anyone else's relationship. If anything, I'd be willing to bet this makes him appear more human to a lot of guys in that locker room and they've embraced him more as a result.

Now, for those who want to say "Well that's disgusting," sorry to tell you... a lot of these guys who we root for aren't the greatest human beings in the world to begin with.
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I think you’re making just as big an assumption as the people you’re criticizing.

Sure, plenty of NFL players behave badly off the field. That doesn’t mean they suddenly have no standards for the man leading their team or that they’d somehow respect him more because of it.

And “I’d be willing to bet they’ve embraced him more” is every bit as speculative as saying they’ve lost respect for him.

None of us knows what that locker room thinks. That was my point. But dismissing the possibility because “a lot of players are a-holes too” doesn’t really rebut it.
 
Mazz22 said:
It has crossed my mind that perhaps the players have lost some regard for him after the horrific offseason. We had a whole thread discussion on this back then in terms of the ripple effects when someone in leadership behaves in a way that contradicts the standards they preach.

Vrabel has spent a lot of time talking about accountability, discipline, avoiding distractions and doing what's best for the team. Then he became the biggest distraction in the building.

That doesn't mean the players suddenly hate him or won't play for him. But leadership depends on more than the title. It depends on credibility. And once credibility takes a hit, the dynamic can change in ways that aren't necessarily visible when you're winning.

Now they're losing, they're sloppy, and Vrabel himself is talking about the team's attitude and energy. I think it's fair to at least wonder whether we're seeing some of the ripple effects of an offseason that did real damage to his authority in that locker room.
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I think everything you said is reasonable but I still want to believe that football players or really any employee in any industry don't care that much about infidelity enough for this to really create the kind of ripple that you outline.
 
signbabybrady said:
I think everything you said is reasonable but I still want to believe that football players or really any employee in any industry don't care that much about infidelity enough for this to really create the kind of ripple that you outline.
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But I don’t think they have to care deeply about infidelity for there to be a ripple. It’s not necessarily about morality. It’s about leadership, credibility and how people view the person asking them to buy in.

Employees can think, “His personal life is none of my business,” and still see their boss differently after learning something about him. Those two things aren’t mutually exclusive.

I’m not saying the locker room definitely lost respect for Vrabel. I’m saying I don’t think we can assume something this public had zero effect on how 53 different people view him.

Also something else I just looked up. 19 active players on the roser are between the ages of his two sons (24-26) including Maye and Gonzo.
 
Mazz22 said:
But I don’t think they have to care deeply about infidelity for there to be a ripple. It’s not necessarily about morality. It’s about leadership, credibility and how people view the person asking them to buy in.

Employees can think, “His personal life is none of my business,” and still see their boss differently after learning something about him. Those two things aren’t mutually exclusive.

I’m not saying the locker room definitely lost respect for Vrabel. I’m saying I don’t think we can assume something this public had zero effect on how 53 different people view him.

Also something else I just looked up. 19 active players on the roser are between the ages of his two sons (24-26) including Maye and Gonzo.
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I agree with that. What if it only affected 1 person but that person was our QB or his wife? Subconsciously, even.

However, there are plenty of reasons the Pats aren't playing well.
Our OL can't block for the running game
Our receivers can't separate


View: https://x.com/Pete_Collins_/status/2104966683073073158



View: https://x.com/Brycen2047/status/2104529435034591531
 
Mazz22 said:
I think you’re making just as big an assumption as the people you’re criticizing.

Sure, plenty of NFL players behave badly off the field. That doesn’t mean they suddenly have no standards for the man leading their team or that they’d somehow respect him more because of it.

And “I’d be willing to bet they’ve embraced him more” is every bit as speculative as saying they’ve lost respect for him.

None of us knows what that locker room thinks. That was my point. But dismissing the possibility because “a lot of players are a-holes too” doesn’t really rebut it.
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That's a fair rebuttal given that I left out some important context:
I've discussed the Vrabel topic with multiple pro athletes (4 to be exact, from 2 different sports). All retired but played their respective sport in a time-line that either overlapped with Vrabel's playing career or beyond, so recent enough. The general consensus:

Most guys don't broadcast their deviance but it becomes known to some or many over time. Furthermore, most don't care what the other guys do so long as it doesn't spill over into another guy's home life (i.e., they are not also implicated when another guy gets busted). Infidelity is not necessarily something every player embraces, but it is rampant and every player knows his teammates are more likely to take part in it than not and therefore, are almost numb to it. As one put it" Temptation is constant."

Not justifying anything referenced above, but it is straight from a few horses' mouths. I don't think any Patriot players are underperforming because Mike Vrabel strayed. Like it our not, his behavior is not out of character for his environment.
 
3 Point Stan said:
When you went to school, the earth was flat and the football was a solid piece of granite.

HS football and pro football could not possibly be less comparable in this scenario. It wasn't back then, and it certainly isn't now.
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Wrong again

When your leader proves he';s an idiot at any time and every level that sends a message to those he is suppose to be leading. now think rookie, ok?

Need to get out more slugger.
 
3 Point Stan said:
That's a fair rebuttal given that I left out some important context:
I've discussed the Vrabel topic with multiple pro athletes (4 to be exact, from 2 different sports). All retired but played their respective sport in a time-line that either overlapped with Vrabel's playing career or beyond, so recent enough. The general consensus:

Most guys don't broadcast their deviance but it becomes known to some or many over time. Furthermore, most don't care what the other guys do so long as it doesn't spill over into another guy's home life (i.e., they are not also implicated when another guy gets busted). Infidelity is not necessarily something every player embraces, but it is rampant and every player knows his teammates are more likely to take part in it than not and therefore, are almost numb to it. As one put it" Temptation is constant."

Not justifying anything referenced above, but it is straight from a few horses' mouths. I don't think any Patriot players are underperforming because Mike Vrabel strayed. Like it our not, his behavior is not out of character for his environment.
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That's interesting context, thank you for sharing it. But there's another pretty important distinction: the athletes you talked to are describing how players view their peers, not their head coach.

I completely believe that teammates become numb to what other players are doing. But the guy in the locker next to you isn't the guy setting the culture, demanding accountability and asking 53 players to buy into his leadership. That's a very different dynamic.

And I don't think anyone is saying, "The Patriots are playing badly because Vrabel cheated." That's way too simplistic.

My point about a ripple is much broader. Something can affect how players view a leader without them being morally outraged by it or consciously playing worse because of it. Respect, credibility and buy-in aren't on/off switches.
 
Dacron Dakar said:
Wrong again

When your leader proves he';s an idiot at any time and every level that sends a message to those he is suppose to be leading. now think rookie, ok?

Need to get out more slugger.
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I swear to God you are UT in disguise and are just punking all of us for putting you through 2+ decades of anguish on this board.

I repent!
 
3 Point Stan said:
I swear to God you are UT in disguise and are just punking all of us for putting you through 2+ decades of anguish on this board.

I repent!
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Wrong once again.

Just discovered this internet thing a this year. UT...???

But, played 20 years of organized football, ran track and sold insurance, I know people was in that business.

You judge things by those running things, right?

Now think.
 
I hope that's not real.

Do your job!

Your job is not to criticize the coach or management. It was the beginning of the end for Mac and even if it doesn't get that ugly that quickly nothing good comes out of it.
 
HAMMERMILL said:
I think that's fair and well said.
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I highly doubt most of the players care where the head coach is sticking his "little assistant coach". These are grown men with their own grown-man issues that we probably don't know of (until the media gets wind--talking to you, Diggs). I doubt they're clutching their pearls and underproducing because the head coach is a philanderer.

Simpler explanation: as he said, their depth sucks, and they're already taking huge hits. The WR1 is out, the O-line is falling apart, the QB has the yips thanks to Seattle... and, yet, we could be 2-1.

I'm gonna give it half the season before I break out the tar and feathers...
 
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