Bill Belichick

What about Phillip Rivers for example? The guy looked like he was in the middle of a shotput competition every time he threw. I was never a fan, but look at his career. Outside of his god awful postseason record and loserdom status, he had a nice productive career who knew how to throw based on his motion. I didn't think he'd make it, but he didn't have a strong arm.
right, never had a cannon. Raw strength wasn't terrible, but his mechanics were, and everything was harder than it had to be.

I see Mac as an above average arm guy with room to make it a little better as he grows into his body. You want average? Kyle Orton. Teddy Bridgewater. Mark Sanchez. Guys like that.
Ah, maybe the problem is the definition of the word "average." Or settling on the group you're looking for the average. Because when you are comparing the universe of NFL starters, those guys are well below average.

When Mac needs to zip it in there, we've seen him do it. The ball to Bourne vs Dallas totally surprised the Cowboys secondary, for example. The dart he threw to Bourne for the TD vs Cleveland was a seed.
Agreed that he has a better arm than what so many have been convinced of by Rex Ryan, and that he wisely only throws as hard as he needs to throw most of the time. And that his arm is strong enough that it's not going to significantly limit him. And that it's not that important.

I am sorry, but Phil Perry is wrong. Below average basically means you can't succeed as an NFL QB week to week.
No.
First of all, I didn't come to this conclusion by listening to Phil Perry or any other pundit.
You can watch and see.

2 - Words mean things. "Below average QB" might mean something like that, except that you may be strong in the skills of a heady game manager so that, combined with the money saved by not having a high-end contract, you can be very successful week to week.

But we're not talking about Below average QB. "Below average arm strength" literally means that assuming you decided on some metric(s) by which you would measure the maximum strength of the throws of all NFL starting quarterbacks, it would be the sum of that metric for all players divided by the number of players. Realistically, we're probably talking about the median rather than average, so #17 or lower out of 32 would be below the median. The median is almost certainly below the average, but putting that aside, we'll go with the median.

Without a decent metric, you get a little subjective at this point. But in terms of some combination of, let's say:
  • how far they can throw the ball,
  • how far they can throw while maintaining decent accuracy,*
  • how fast they can zip a ball into a tight window,*
  • how much reaction time they can make up by reducing the ball's flight time*
  • how hard the ball hits the receiver's hands,
  • how far they can throw "on a rope" without needing to put significant arc under the ball, and maybe
  • how far they can throw when they don't have their base under them (which isolates the arm by removing lower body and form/technique from the equation)**

... I'd say all of the below would exceed Mac Jones by most ways you might measure:

Tier 1 - Effing Duh:
Allen
Mahomes
Rodgers
Stafford
Herbert
Murray

Tier 2 - Inarguable:
Mayfield
Watson
Lawrence
Lance
Wilson
Winston

Tier 3 - Obviously stronger arms:
Prescott
Tannehill
Carr
Ryan
Brady
Wentz
Cousins
Fields
Wilson
Burrow
Jackson

Tier 4 - Close to Mac:
Dalton
Rothlisberger
Newton
Garoppolo

Those are ones I felt pretty comfortable with ranking at a glance. Mac's arm is clearly better than some - Tua and Bridgewater come to mind immediately. But the difference between the 20ish range and the 30th range isn't huge, and there are only a handful that have sub-par arm strength to the extent that they're outliers, and are really crippled by this issue.

Point is, though, I listed 23 guys in the first 3 tiers before hitting one that even gave me pause. There would be more than 32 if this list were complete (Watson, some injured starters and former backups included) but you're not going to get to 47 to move Mac above the halfway point. That's the median, and I'm fine using that. If we really wanted something like an average I'd say it falls somewhere in the range of the guys that rank #12-15, because those top tier guys pull it up more than the guys at the bottom pull it down.

...

All that said, rank them as pure throwers (accuracy & placement) and Mac moves up that list. Factor in throwing in game situations (ball placement for WR safety, ball security, enabling YAC, "throwing people open," and manipulating a defense to create gaps for receivers to attack) and he moves up even more, probably near the top.

But in terms of pure arm strength? Yes, right now it is below that of the average NFL starter. Don't take it personally. It just is what it is.

- Flagg

PS - Of those ways to think about measuring arm strength:
* Most important things to look at
** Only important if the QB relies on mobility
 
The experts are obsessed with arm strength. Accuracy and intelligence are more important imo. Who cares if someone can chuck a ball 90 yards if they can't hit the broad side of a barn, arm strength is useless. If you can't read a defense, arm strength won't help you. The experts, I take what they say with a grain of salt.
Reminds me of BC's Mike Mamula, the original Combine " Workout Warrior",who trained maniacally just for the combine drills and blew everyone's doors off at the '95 combine. Went from an early to mid-round prospect to the #7 choice in the first round by Philly. Was an ok player for about 5 years in the league. Smart dude, though.
 
right, never had a cannon. Raw strength wasn't terrible, but his mechanics were, and everything was harder than it had to be.

Ah, maybe the problem is the definition of the word "average." Or settling on the group you're looking for the average. Because when you are comparing the universe of NFL starters, those guys are well below average.

Agreed that he has a better arm than what so many have been convinced of by Rex Ryan, and that he wisely only throws as hard as he needs to throw most of the time. And that his arm is strong enough that it's not going to significantly limit him. And that it's not that important.


No.
First of all, I didn't come to this conclusion by listening to Phil Perry or any other pundit.
You can watch and see.

2 - Words mean things. "Below average QB" might mean something like that, except that you may be strong in the skills of a heady game manager so that, combined with the money saved by not having a high-end contract, you can be very successful week to week.

But we're not talking about Below average QB. "Below average arm strength" literally means that assuming you decided on some metric(s) by which you would measure the maximum strength of the throws of all NFL starting quarterbacks, it would be the sum of that metric for all players divided by the number of players. Realistically, we're probably talking about the median rather than average, so #17 or lower out of 32 would be below the median. The median is almost certainly below the average, but putting that aside, we'll go with the median.

Without a decent metric, you get a little subjective at this point. But in terms of some combination of, let's say:
  • how far they can throw the ball,
  • how far they can throw while maintaining decent accuracy,*
  • how fast they can zip a ball into a tight window,*
  • how much reaction time they can make up by reducing the ball's flight time*
  • how hard the ball hits the receiver's hands,
  • how far they can throw "on a rope" without needing to put significant arc under the ball, and maybe
  • how far they can throw when they don't have their base under them (which isolates the arm by removing lower body and form/technique from the equation)**

... I'd say all of the below would exceed Mac Jones by most ways you might measure:

Tier 1 - Effing Duh:
Allen
Mahomes
Rodgers
Stafford
Herbert
Murray

Tier 2 - Inarguable:
Mayfield
Watson
Lawrence
Lance
Wilson
Winston

Tier 3 - Obviously stronger arms:
Prescott
Tannehill
Carr
Ryan
Brady
Wentz
Cousins
Fields
Wilson
Burrow
Jackson

Tier 4 - Close to Mac:
Dalton
Rothlisberger
Newton
Garoppolo

Those are ones I felt pretty comfortable with ranking at a glance. Mac's arm is clearly better than some - Tua and Bridgewater come to mind immediately. But the difference between the 20ish range and the 30th range isn't huge, and there are only a handful that have sub-par arm strength to the extent that they're outliers, and are really crippled by this issue.

Point is, though, I listed 23 guys in the first 3 tiers before hitting one that even gave me pause. There would be more than 32 if this list were complete (Watson, some injured starters and former backups included) but you're not going to get to 47 to move Mac above the halfway point. That's the median, and I'm fine using that. If we really wanted something like an average I'd say it falls somewhere in the range of the guys that rank #12-15, because those top tier guys pull it up more than the guys at the bottom pull it down.

...

All that said, rank them as pure throwers (accuracy & placement) and Mac moves up that list. Factor in throwing in game situations (ball placement for WR safety, ball security, enabling YAC, "throwing people open," and manipulating a defense to create gaps for receivers to attack) and he moves up even more, probably near the top.

But in terms of pure arm strength? Yes, right now it is below that of the average NFL starter. Don't take it personally. It just is what it is.

- Flagg

PS - Of those ways to think about measuring arm strength:
* Most important things to look at
** Only important if the QB relies on mobility
Yeah, you spent way, way too much time on this. There is no way he'd be hitting many of throws he's hit this year if he had below average arm strength. I would say numerous QBs have great arms in this league, and they're lesser QBs, so having mediocre arm strength in 2021 doesn't mean Mac has "below average".

The fact is, too many NFL teams are morons diagnosing a good QB. I could pick apart the top tiers flaws which means the comment of "arm strength" is pointless. No starting NFL QB has below average arm strength.
 
Arm strength means jack shit in the NFL compared to accuracy. The difference between college and the pros is the quality of the defenses Pro QBs have to face. It's a world away from College and a gunslinger in college with the rocket arm finds himself getting picked off continuously by sneaky DBs who are experts at baiting a QB with their eyes alone.
 
warner and p manning never had great arms...ever. warner particularly threw a really wobbly ball a good bit of the time. there's a reason they sought out mostly warm weather/domes and struggled more in colder inclement weather.
 
Yeah, you spent way, way too much time on this. There is no way he'd be hitting many of throws he's hit this year if he had below average arm strength. I would say numerous QBs have great arms in this league, and they're lesser QBs, so having mediocre arm strength in 2021 doesn't mean Mac has "below average".

The fact is, too many NFL teams are morons diagnosing a good QB. I could pick apart the top tiers flaws which means the comment of "arm strength" is pointless. No starting NFL QB has below average arm strength.
I'm in a remote training this week. Seems like it's been showing in my posts.

This whole post shows me that you're not using the words the same way I am, but that we fundamentally agree. I know you like to argue points (pot/kettle) and that you love (and/or feel obliged) to jump in and defend the Patriots and Pats players, but I recommend holding yourself back from jumping into the Mac/arm strength argument, because I don't think you're arguing what you think you're arguing. It's your time to spend how you want, but I think you'll sacrifice perceived credibility and objectivity that could help you elsewhere. :cheers:
 
I'm in a remote training this week. Seems like it's been showing in my posts.

This whole post shows me that you're not using the words the same way I am, but that we fundamentally agree. I know you like to argue points (pot/kettle) and that you love (and/or feel obliged) to jump in and defend the Patriots and Pats players, but I recommend holding yourself back from jumping into the Mac/arm strength argument, because I don't think you're arguing what you think you're arguing. It's your time to spend how you want, but I think you'll sacrifice perceived credibility and objectivity that could help you elsewhere. :cheers:
I don't have an interest in being lectured. I've been watching this sport for 40 years. I know what arm strength is and looks like. Tim Tebow blushes somewhere along with Mark Sanchez and dozens of others who struggled to throw a ball downfield.
 
Semantics

Can we just agree that Mac's arm is good enough for most throws now and that in time his arm strength will improve?
Exactly. I mean, this isn't the CFL or the Arena League. You can't start in this NFL with a "below average" arm. It's insulting to my intelligence and everyone's who knows the sport. The run based QBs like Tebow or whoever else who tried to get by because their arm sucked and they couldn't throw...those guys have below average arms.

You can't function in this league with an arm that is crappy. It's not going to work.
 
I don't have an interest in being lectured. I've been watching this sport for 40 years. I know what arm strength is and looks like. Tim Tebow blushes somewhere along with Mark Sanchez and dozens of others who struggled to throw a ball downfield.
Never said you didn't. I was referring to how you were using "below average."
@ bold: :rolleyes:
 
Never said you didn't. I was referring to how you were using "below average."
@ bold: :rolleyes:
Tua has a below average arm which is one reason his teammates at Bama said Mac was better. I just think it's funny a starting QB on a 9-4 team who has shown he has a solid arm, would be seen as such. There's a reason why Tua needs to do RPOs and gimmick crap to function and part of that is his arm strength being poor.
 
The experts are obsessed with arm strength. Accuracy and intelligence are more important imo. Who cares if someone can chuck a ball 90 yards if they can't hit the broad side of a barn, arm strength is useless. If you can't read a defense, arm strength won't help you. The experts, I take what they say with a grain of salt.

BINGO. This is what I was thinking as I read thru the posts about "Arm Strength". Mac seems more than able to deliver the ball to the right place at the right time in a catchable manor.
 
she's a jete fan too...lol
I don't like her, but she gets credit for that, because it's so obviously true. They give the award to Pioli back in the day but I am not sure Reese/Caserio ever got the award when they were here.

Even if BB isn't listed as the GM officially, we all know he is because that's why he came here when Kraft traded for him.

I felt BB could have easily won it in 2014 and 2016 for his key in season trades, the drafts and FA moves in those seasons. This garbage about he gets covered up by Brady has been garbage for 15 years. It's preposterous.

There are numerous other teams who have had elite QBs or HOF QBs whose GMs won Exec of the Year and didn't have as good a season as our team did.
 
Arm strength means jack shit in the NFL compared to accuracy.
AND touch. Mac has shown and the receivers have appreciated the location of the throws but also the throws get there in time to make the catch and have time for YAC or self protection. And not at 500 mph at 8 yards away. There are flashes of the real pretty ones dropping into the receivers arms from heaven and with time we will see that more and more.
 
BINGO. This is what I was thinking as I read thru the posts about "Arm Strength". Mac seems more than able to deliver the ball to the right place at the right time in a catchable manor.
Mac can also put some zip on the ball when he needs to. He throws what looks to be a very catchable ball and the better part is, he places it where only his receiver can catch it, most of the time. I'll take that over arm strength every time.

When will they learn? Joe Montana had a cannon for an arm, oh wait, no he didn't, he did ok in the NFL. Same with another guy with questionable arm strength, his name is Tom Brady, he seemed to do ok as well.
 
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