Bucs Secure Seed - Brady throws 43 Tds

OP
OP
Mazz22

Mazz22

Age 44 and STILL playing like a champ
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
14,658
Reaction score
2,142
Points
113
Location
MA
You're telling me that in 2001 he was a transformative player? The guy who prior to 2007 wasn't putting up gaudy stats at all and relied on his defense and run game (some years more than others) to win a large portion of those playoffs games.

I didn't realize Tom coached all positions, or that guys like Smith, Brown and Patten were willing to be coached by a 199th pick fresh into the league.
5-13 team, steps on the field, team wins the Super Bowl. Pretty much text book definition of organizational transformative player.
 
OP
OP
Mazz22

Mazz22

Age 44 and STILL playing like a champ
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
14,658
Reaction score
2,142
Points
113
Location
MA
Also, it's ironic to suggest Brady didn't need or benefit from coaching when he has stated the exact opposite numerous times throughout his career.

Who he is as a player now is not who he was in 2001 or 2005 or 2009. He's the GOAT, but to suggest that he was destined to be the GOAT regardless of what team and coach he was paired with is ridiculous. I'm sure to some degree he "outgrew" the need for coaching (relative to when he was younger) but that in itself is a product of the quality coaching he received during his career.

The blind love spewed here is truly remarkable.
Never said that. I said he was not dependent on great coaching.
 

mooseontheloose

See, moose love the Pats too!
Joined
Jan 1, 2007
Messages
15,683
Reaction score
1,374
Points
113
Location
Canada lol
Never said that. I said he was not dependent on great coaching.
5-13 team, steps on the field, team wins the Super Bowl. Pretty much text book definition of organizational transformative player.

Wow.

The blinders are real.

If Brady today was exactly who he was in 2001, would he have had that level of success with the Bucs and won that Super Bowl? Obviously no.

When Brady took over, one of his few strengths was his coachability. Look back at his game in the early 2000s. He depended on his brain and being coachable. That isn't a secret - he and others said it even then.

So, a player is a rough prospect who is extremely coachable and is matched up with one coach for two decades (GOAT coach according to many). Coming out on the other side of that experience, he isn't "dependent on great coaching" but we are supposed to pretend that he magically transformed into a special unicorn on his own and would have become the same TB with or without BB? That is crazy talk.

No one is disputing that in 2020-21, Tom Brady likely doesn't need a great coach to succeed. Or that he is a remarkable player who can change an entire organization's fortunes. The issue is what made him that way. Tell me this - when did he no longer need a great coach? Did he ever benefit from BB as a coach? If so, when did that end and (if not BB) how did Tom morph from a dude barely even drafted to the GOAT? Are you suggesting it was entirely his own making and (as I asked before) that he was destined for his level of success regardless of the team/coach he played for?

No one with a brain makes these arguments. It doesn't matter if you like or dislike BB. It's fine to say that BB couldn't have had the same success with another QB, and that may well be true. But to suggest that Tom didn't need Bill at least for a period of time to become as great as he did is just hilarious.
 
OP
OP
Mazz22

Mazz22

Age 44 and STILL playing like a champ
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
14,658
Reaction score
2,142
Points
113
Location
MA
Wow.

The blinders are real.

If Brady today was exactly who he was in 2001, would he have had that level of success with the Bucs and won that Super Bowl? Obviously no.

When Brady took over, one of his few strengths was his coachability. Look back at his game in the early 2000s. He depended on his brain and being coachable. That isn't a secret - he and others said it even then.

So, a player is a rough prospect who is extremely coachable and is matched up with one coach for two decades (GOAT coach according to many). Coming out on the other side of that experience, he isn't "dependent on great coaching" but we are supposed to pretend that he magically transformed into a special unicorn on his own and would have become the same TB with or without BB? That is crazy talk.

No one is disputing that in 2020-21, Tom Brady likely doesn't need a great coach to succeed. Or that he is a remarkable player who can change an entire organization's fortunes. The issue is what made him that way. Tell me this - when did he no longer need a great coach? Did he ever benefit from BB as a coach? If so, when did that end and (if not BB) how did Tom morph from a dude barely even drafted to the GOAT? Are you suggesting it was entirely his own making and (as I asked before) that he was destined for his level of success regardless of the team/coach he played for?

No one with a brain makes these arguments. It doesn't matter if you like or dislike BB. It's fine to say that BB couldn't have had the same success with another QB, and that may well be true. But to suggest that Tom didn't need Bill at least for a period of time to become as great as he did is just hilarious.
It's embarrassing that Bill did not let Brady have more say in the offense to keep him here these past two seasons and going forward. We could have kept winning super bowls. Probably another two to three easily but Bill couldn't put his ego down.

When I look at the team this year, it is clear that Bill has checked out of his assistants in a big way. He appears to be just going through the motions. This last month of the season has been a true embarrassment. To go 1-3 when we had the one seed locked up and the division is just sad and really speaks to Bill being checked out.
 

mooseontheloose

See, moose love the Pats too!
Joined
Jan 1, 2007
Messages
15,683
Reaction score
1,374
Points
113
Location
Canada lol
It's embarrassing that Bill did not let Brady have more say in the offense to keep him here these past two seasons and going forward. We could have kept winning super bowls. Probably another two to three easily but Bill couldn't put his ego down.

When I look at the team this year, it is clear that Bill has checked out of his assistants in a big way. He appears to be just going through the motions. This last month of the season has been a true embarrassment. To go 1-3 when we had the one seed locked up and the division is just sad and really speaks to Bill being checked out.

That was quite the deflection lol.

That being said, I'm not sure I agree anyway. We're paying Mac a lot less money than we would have had to pay Brady, which is why we were able to improve the team and make the playoffs despite starting a rookie at QB. If Brady was here, a lot of the new additions wouldn't be. And the team as a whole (Brady included) was pretty mediocre when we last saw him in a Pats uniform.

Not saying it's impossible they could have won another ring with him here, but there's no way one can argue it was inevitable or even likely. Ironically, Tom seemed checked out during his final season. In TB he looked reinvigorated playing for a new team, and the talent around him was miles better than what he left in NE. Would TB have won the SB last year with say Mahomes or Rodgers at QB instead of Brady? Possibly. Would the Pats have made the playoffs with Brady instead of Cam last year? Maybe but unlikely. Pretending the supporting cast doesn't matter is dumb.

By your own admission, Brady doesn't need a good coach but he obviously needs decent players around him. That's what he found in TB.
 
OP
OP
Mazz22

Mazz22

Age 44 and STILL playing like a champ
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
14,658
Reaction score
2,142
Points
113
Location
MA
That was quite the deflection lol.

That being said, I'm not sure I agree anyway. We're paying Mac a lot less money than we would have had to pay Brady, which is why we were able to improve the team and make the playoffs despite starting a rookie at QB. If Brady was here, a lot of the new additions wouldn't be. And the team as a whole (Brady included) was pretty mediocre when we last saw him in a Pats uniform.

Not saying it's impossible they could have won another ring with him here, but there's no way one can argue it was inevitable or even likely. Ironically, Tom seemed checked out during his final season. In TB he looked reinvigorated playing for a new team, and the talent around him was miles better than what he left in NE. Would TB have won the SB last year with say Mahomes or Rodgers at QB instead of Brady? Possibly. Would the Pats have made the playoffs with Brady instead of Cam last year? Maybe but unlikely. Pretending the supporting cast doesn't matter is dumb.

By your own admission, Brady doesn't need a good coach but he obviously needs decent players around him. That's what he found in TB.
It was a deflection as I just didn't feel like rehashing the whole thing again. 😂

Would much rather talk about this season then 20 years ago. I do agree somewhat about the circumstances but honestly a quarterback like Matt Jones you can find him in any draft. I mean he's a nice player but he is never going to be great. Bill easily could have kept Brady and made a couple more go around and won a couple more rings. It is terribly frustrating to see how well Brady is playing, championship level while we are in the middle of a rebuild that we honestly could have put off for a few more years.

It is interesting to me that Bill literally drafted a QB in Brady's image when he already had Brady. It would have been one thing if he went and got Justin Fields and decided to build the offense to contend with today's high power AFC offenses. But he didn't, he is literally building it the same way he did 20 years ago with a QB who probably won't even be half of what Brady is if we're honest. That is the part that really irks me. I would have been fine if Bill decided to go in a different direction and become a truly potent offense but he's still doing the same things he did 20 years ago and it's just not going to work. If he doesn't put some A level talent around Mac this team is never winning another championship. We can get by on coaching and make the playoffs but we're not going to consistently beat the elite AFC teams.
 

Roberto71

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 17, 2012
Messages
13,061
Reaction score
4,777
Points
113
Location
Dublin, Ireland
It was a deflection as I just didn't feel like rehashing the whole thing again. 😂

Would much rather talk about this season then 20 years ago. I do agree somewhat about the circumstances but honestly a quarterback like Matt Jones you can find him in any draft. I mean he's a nice player but he is never going to be great. Bill easily could have kept Brady and made a couple more go around and won a couple more rings. It is terribly frustrating to see how well Brady is playing, championship level while we are in the middle of a rebuild that we honestly could have put off for a few more years.

It is interesting to me that Bill literally drafted a QB in Brady's image when he already had Brady. It would have been one thing if he went and got Justin Fields and decided to build the offense to contend with today's high power AFC offenses. But he didn't, he is literally building it the same way he did 20 years ago with a QB who probably won't even be half of what Brady is if we're honest. That is the part that really irks me. I would have been fine if Bill decided to go in a different direction and become a truly potent offense but he's still doing the same things he did 20 years ago and it's just not going to work. If he doesn't put some A level talent around Mac this team is never winning another championship. We can get by on coaching and make the playoffs but we're not going to consistently beat the elite AFC teams.

Seriously Mazz, do you actually ever read back what you post here?

It is interesting to me that Bill literally drafted a QB in Brady's image when he already had Brady.
Mac is a young QB in his early 20s. Tom is mid-40s. Do you not understand this? Bill is building for the future and snagged a QB who was projected to go in the first 10 picks and we got him.

a QB who probably won't even be half of what Brady is if we're honest.
Nobody can possibly know this. Your hero, remember, and we will keep reminding you of this, was taken at 199 in the draft. NOBODY wanted him. There is not a single person in the game at that time who could have projected what Brady became.

If he doesn't put some A level talent around Mac this team is never winning another championship.
Brady needs A level talent the same as any other QB. He needed Jules, Gronk, Faulk, Brown, Mankins, Neal, Light, Thuney, Patten, Branch plus he needed a stellar defense and a HOF kicker. He needed AB, Gronk, Fournette, Godwin, Evans etc in Tampa.

No QB works in a vacuum Mazz.
 
OP
OP
Mazz22

Mazz22

Age 44 and STILL playing like a champ
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
14,658
Reaction score
2,142
Points
113
Location
MA
Seriously Mazz, do you actually ever read back what you post here?


Mac is a young QB in his early 20s. Tom is mid-40s. Do you not understand this? Bill is building for the future and snagged a QB who was projected to go in the first 10 picks and we got him.


Nobody can possibly know this. Your hero, remember, and we will keep reminding you of this, was taken at 199 in the draft. NOBODY wanted him. There is not a single person in the game at that time who could have projected what Brady became.


Brady needs A level talent the same as any other QB. He needed Jules, Gronk, Faulk, Brown, Mankins, Neal, Light, Thuney, Patten, Branch plus he needed a stellar defense and a HOF kicker. He needed AB, Gronk, Fournette, Godwin, Evans etc in Tampa.

No QB works in a vacuum Mazz.
Mac went at 15.

Without A level offensive skill talent Mac is not going to have much of a career.

That's pretty much the thrust of the point I'm trying to make. In today's League the offenses are really potent and you have to have dynamic playmakers. Bill is building things the same old way and that just isn't going to work.
 

mooseontheloose

See, moose love the Pats too!
Joined
Jan 1, 2007
Messages
15,683
Reaction score
1,374
Points
113
Location
Canada lol
Mac went at 15.

Without A level offensive skill talent Mac is not going to have much of a career.

That's pretty much the thrust of the point I'm trying to make. In today's League the offenses are really potent and you have to have dynamic playmakers. Bill is building things the same old way and that just isn't going to work.

So what difference would it have made keeping Brady then? With Brady, the weapons would likely be worse since they'd have had less to spend in FA last year.

Also sounds like you're complaining more about BB the GM than BB the Coach.
 
OP
OP
Mazz22

Mazz22

Age 44 and STILL playing like a champ
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
14,658
Reaction score
2,142
Points
113
Location
MA
So what difference would it have made keeping Brady then? With Brady, the weapons would likely be worse since they'd have had less to spend in FA last year.

Also sounds like you're complaining more about BB the GM than BB the Coach.
It would have required a change in approach by Bill for sure. And that really is the source of my angst whether we have Brady or not. To see him building the team the exact way he did 20 years ago is very disheartening. He also seems to get a free pass for the way he mismanaged the cap leading up to Brady's departure.

But you are correct my main issues are with him as a GM not as a coach.
 

patsRmyboys

Fun in the Florida sun
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
Messages
7,203
Reaction score
1,351
Points
113
Location
Florida by way of RI
Winning is always based on transcendent players, specifically the QB. Brady transformed the Patriots just like how he is doing with the Bucs now. He is an organizational transformative player.
And Bill has ALWAYS said that players play, do your job... winning is dependent on those things... Your devotion to Brady borders on kinda creepy. You know he's not going to bang you, right?
 

PatsFan09

Done. And. Done.
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
21,697
Reaction score
2,993
Points
113
Location
Circumlocuting around New England...
Mass might be the dumbest yet most consistent troll we’ve had here ever. She’s even worse than Middie. She’s not even rational; love how she uses Twitter accounts of college sophomores as her sources.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 

Phil Elliott

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 2, 2015
Messages
1,116
Reaction score
1,251
Points
113
Location
Massachusetts
Mass might be the dumbest yet most consistent troll we’ve had here ever. She’s even worse than Middie. She’s not even rational; love how she uses Twitter accounts of college sophomores as her sources.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
I don't know, the troll who used "I am Hard tits" the other day gave her a real run for her money...
 

mooseontheloose

See, moose love the Pats too!
Joined
Jan 1, 2007
Messages
15,683
Reaction score
1,374
Points
113
Location
Canada lol
If Brady wins another Super Bowl this season then it's fair to ask if Belichick held him back from greater success in New England.

Ya, 6 Super Bowls definitely feels like being held back lol. And it was the offense (helmed by Brady) that most often let the team down in SB/playoff losses.
 
Top