Could we beat this team?

chevss454

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The Pats rejects would win and I am not sure the current pats team would score. That oline is not great except for Brown but we couldnt rush the passer anyway, as you said not taking injuries into account, Cam would not make it through the first quarter.

Neither would Brady. His OL would be blitzed to shreds worse that the first Giants SB.
 

chevss454

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By our Pass rush? He would be fine. :coffee:
That OL though.

 
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Hawg73

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I am missing your point totally. Can you please explain. Sorry if it is obvious. It is Monday and I am having one of those days. LOL

I'd be glad to, but I made several points and I'm not sure which particular one you're missing.

If I had to guess it'd be this part:

All I was trying to get across is that you can put together an entire starting team of guys that we couldn't keep, wouldn't keep or couldn't make it here and they could likely kick our ass. If I was Boston media person I'd have said "Belichick is too cheap to pay them", but that is the cheapest of cheap shots and I don't buy it anyhow.

All I did was make up a team of guys presently playing in the league that used to be on the Patriots roster and it's pretty clear that those guys could probably beat the 2020 team.

I then tried to note that it isn't like we didn't WANT all of those guys and just threw them on waivers. It is true of some of the players I listed, but most of them earned a free agent payday by performing very well, such as Chandler Jones and Tom Brady, etc., However, If people listen to Mike Felger (et al) for more than 5 minutes you'll likely hear him accuse the Patriots of "cheaping out" on contracts for players who are key members of the team and justly deserve to get paid. He says those exact words or something similar all the time, conveniently forgetting that the Pats have spent virtually all of their cap money every single season excepting for a little emergency reserve. The 2020 50-60M cap surplus is an outlier number, not the norm, so I take issue with those that accuse the Pats of being cheap.

Still, there are a lot of quality guys on that list, so if the Pats aren't cheap then they have been a lot better at acquiring NFL talent than is commonly believed. The last time I saw a list of former Pats still active in the NFL there were about 60 of them.

I'd bet that the number two team in terms of ex players still in the league wouldn't even be close to that number.
 

Mazz22

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I'd be glad to, but I made several points and I'm not sure which particular one you're missing.

If I had to guess it'd be this part:

All I was trying to get across is that you can put together an entire starting team of guys that we couldn't keep, wouldn't keep or couldn't make it here and they could likely kick our ass. If I was Boston media person I'd have said "Belichick is too cheap to pay them", but that is the cheapest of cheap shots and I don't buy it anyhow.

All I did was make up a team of guys presently playing in the league that used to be on the Patriots roster and it's pretty clear that those guys could probably beat the 2020 team.

I then tried to note that it isn't like we didn't WANT all of those guys and just threw them on waivers. It is true of some of the players I listed, but most of them earned a free agent payday by performing very well, such as Chandler Jones and Tom Brady, etc., However, If people listen to Mike Felger (et al) for more than 5 minutes you'll likely hear him accuse the Patriots of "cheaping out" on contracts for players who are key members of the team and justly deserve to get paid. He says those exact words or something similar all the time, conveniently forgetting that the Pats have spent virtually all of their cap money every single season excepting for a little emergency reserve. The 2020 50-60M cap surplus is an outlier number, not the norm, so I take issue with those that accuse the Pats of being cheap.

Still, there are a lot of quality guys on that list, so if the Pats aren't cheap then they have been a lot better at acquiring NFL talent than is commonly believed. The last time I saw a list of former Pats still active in the NFL there were about 60 of them.

I'd bet that the number two team in terms of ex players still in the league wouldn't even be close to that number.
Thank you. I understand now the point you are making.

Felger has harped on the cap vs real money spent for years. It is kind of his pet issue. I have no idea why because whenever I hear him talk about it, it becomes quickly apparent that he has no clue about team building/cap/cash/contracts and even less of a clue of how BB has constructed his team for 20 years. The Patriots over the years have the highest number of mid-range players which is a departure from most teams who have a good portion of high priced, top end players and then a drop off behind them. This is why the Pats have had so many quality players leave and do well vs a lot of elite players floating around. Bill just does not build the team that way. He values depth, he values all three units being strong, he wants consistency across the board with very little weakness.

I can understand the perception of the Pats being cheap because they simply don't pay a lot of second contracts to high performers especially at the high-priced skill positions or edge rushers. I think the reason is obvious. But again, Felger refuses to see the big picture and defaults to the Pats/Kraft is cheap. It is such a lazy take.

Now, here is an interesting nugget for you and this will show you how Bill values certain positions over others. Can you name the highest paid WR in Bill's tenure as HC? Can you also name the highest paid RB?

The answers are Moss at $9 mil a year and Corey Dillon at $5 million a year. You have to go back to 2007 for Moss and that contract and back to 2004 for Dillon. Now, I would also tell you that the reason why Bill did not value those positions is because he had Brady who was tremendous at making super stars out of slot receivers and TEs and able to utilize any RBs Bill brought in to either pass to or ask to pass protect. So Bill's philosophies evolved from having Brady along with his acumen on the defensive side. Honestly, it was such a brilliant combo of him and Brady and his ability to create a plug-and-play team with Brady running whatever game plan he cooked up for each opponent.

In terms of this season, I think it is pretty obvious that the cap is upside down due to the poor drafting over the past 6 years. It happens. It stinks but it is fixable. He will clean it up and then start re-stocking. My only concern/worry is his belief that he can coach up a C player to a B and B player to an A. He can do that with everyone other than QB. He has to get THE guy at the position. Average will not get it done in today's league. Hopefully I am wrong and he gets us a stud but I have my doubts. Either way this off-season is going to be fantastic to watch to see how he constructs the team.

Great thread topic by the way. (y)
 
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Hawg73

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The Patriots over the years have the highest number of mid-range players which is a departure from most teams who have a good portion of high priced, top end players and then a drop off behind them. This is why the Pats have had so many quality players leave and do well vs a lot of elite players floating around. Bill just does not build the team that way. He values depth, he values all three units being strong, he wants consistency across the board with very little weakness.
This is exactly my take on the topic and it's an underrated aspect of Belichick's (I know he isn't your favorite guy) ability as a GM. Most teams eventually have a shitty year, try to hit on a superstar or two in the draft and if they do that over the course of a couple of years then suddenly they have a shot at the Super Bowl. Then, those stars hit FA and if they resign, then the team is often exactly as you describe; "top end and a dropoff" and something has to give.

My description has usually been that the Pats are an upper middle-class team that beats a lot of rich/poor teams. Those middle guys play better than their poor guys on special teams and when somebody has to step in due to injury. It's a shrewd adaptation to the rules of the NFL road and played an underrated supporting role in keeping us relevant for two decades.
 

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This is exactly my take on the topic and it's an underrated aspect of Belichick's (I know he isn't your favorite guy) ability as a GM. Most teams eventually have a shitty year, try to hit on a superstar or two in the draft and if they do that over the course of a couple of years then suddenly they have a shot at the Super Bowl. Then, those stars hit FA and if they resign, then the team is often exactly as you describe; "top end and a dropoff" and something has to give.

My description has usually been that the Pats are an upper middle-class team that beats a lot of rich/poor teams. Those middle guys play better than their poor guys on special teams and when somebody has to step in due to injury. It's a shrewd adaptation to the rules of the NFL road and played an underrated supporting role in keeping us relevant for two decades.
The only thing I will say and you are not going to like it. Having a QB for two decades like Brady, makes it a bit easier to take chances for Bill. People say we are finally rebuilding. No we have rebuilt several times, those are the 10-6 seasons or the 11-5 seasons with a loss in the playoffs. Brady didnt demand a expensive high flying offense, and Bill was able to concentrate on the defense a bit more. Watching Brady play this year at 43, I always heard, well they got Brady those quick white guys because he cannot do well on deep passes and he is better at crossers and passes to the backs, well now I think, yeah he can also do the other things too, he just did what the offense was to the best of its ability. Bill did a masterful job of moves that he has made. I am not one of those ones that bash him too much on drafting wideouts, because he didnt really draft a lot of wideouts, only 1 in the first round in 20 years, but he took players that maybe would not have done well somewhere else and he made them fit here and work here. He knew how to maximize guys to what they could do best. But I will say, some of that might have to change a bit more now. I am not sure we can get by with a bottom feeder weapon set from here on out, especially trying to find a QB, they are going to need guys that can get open.
 

Mazz22

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The only thing I will say and you are not going to like it. Having a QB for two decades like Brady, makes it a bit easier to take chances for Bill. People say we are finally rebuilding. No we have rebuilt several times, those are the 10-6 seasons or the 11-5 seasons with a loss in the playoffs. Brady didnt demand a expensive high flying offense, and Bill was able to concentrate on the defense a bit more. Watching Brady play this year at 43, I always heard, well they got Brady those quick white guys because he cannot do well on deep passes and he is better at crossers and passes to the backs, well now I think, yeah he can also do the other things too, he just did what the offense was to the best of its ability. Bill did a masterful job of moves that he has made. I am not one of those ones that bash him too much on drafting wideouts, because he didnt really draft a lot of wideouts, only 1 in the first round in 20 years, but he took players that maybe would not have done well somewhere else and he made them fit here and work here. He knew how to maximize guys to what they could do best. But I will say, some of that might have to change a bit more now. I am not sure we can get by with a bottom feeder weapon set from here on out, especially trying to find a QB, they are going to need guys that can get open.
Bill's strategy was married to having Brady as his QB. It was the perfect combo for two decades. That is what makes this off-season so interesting to me. Does he depart from his team building philosophy now that Brady is gone? What type of offense does he want to run? What type of QB does he want? These will all get answered in the next few months.
 
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