Legal and Illegal Immigration

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johnlocke

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Strong borders/open immigration.

This is in response to Dee's question on my stance on this topic.

Let me just start out by saying that the time is not now to implement this. This country is far from fidelity to her founding principles currently, that so much would have to be changed for this to happen properly that it just should not be undertaken until many regulations, restrictions, welfare, and unjust laws are repealed and public education be seriously overhauled back to a classical nature or better yet abolished completely.

Let's start with the fundamentals, philosophically:

Metaphysics:
As Aristotle observed A is A. Every thing is something specific and can be nothing else at the same time.

Epistemology: Man is the rational animal. His basic tool of survival is his reasoning mind.

Ethics: Rational self-interest meaning that a man's life is the standard of value and that he be the recipient of the effects of all his actions.

Politics: In order to exercise his rational faculty man does not have to be free but to exercise it for his survival, flourishing and benefit he does.

Now that the basics are out of the way a proper rights-respecting nation does just that, protect an individual's right to life, liberty, and property as inviolate and nothing more. In fact, without property rights no other rights are possible.

A proper nation welcomes all comers so long as they are no physical threat to others.

The consequences are enormous and beautiful. Flourishing and human advancement to unprecedented levels.

Just think of how our ancestors just 100 years ago would view the incredible majesty of the growth of those years.

All feats achieved by immigrants.

And set the mind and strong hands-free and we can't even envision the future we could have. But I can see some.

Fallacies and false premises:

1. They'll take American jobs.

Most assuredly most come here to work but in a market economy, the creation of jobs and wealth is not a zero-sum game. What one makes takes nothing from anyone else. And in fact, many entrepreneurs have always come to this country to exercise their minds and as a result, created many jobs and built massive wealth.

One of America's greatest accomplishments was to coin the term "Make money. " For most of history, it was a zero-sum game. No longer.

2. Natural resources are limited on this landmass:

Fly over the continental US and you will see the vast wealth of land and opportunity everywhere you look.

If Hong Kong can build an incredible economy on an island with virtually no natural resources I'd say we're good.

But even if things were getting tight there are vast opportunities for growth such as man-made islands, purchase of more land from other nations, space stations, and things we just can't imagine that would be brought forth by the unleashing of the greatest of the natural resources, man's free mind.

3. And this is more philosophical in nature, they will change the US culture to their own:

So what, it won't happen but this country is the melting pot. Each of our ancestors brought with them parts of their culture and has made us all the richer culturally for it.

In fact, most first-generation immigrants stick to their own, not all, but their children and grandchildren assimilate.

What it boils down to is a nation is not a collective with the right to dispose of individuals as it sees fit.

A proper nation is a group of individuals who all possess the same rights and are protected by police, courts, and the military. It holds no rights above those of its constituent individuals and ought not own land, the means of production nor much else. So it has the right to keep bad actors out but ought to welcome all other immigrants with open arms.

Bottom line, we gain so much from immigrants, rich culture, new businesses, and a vast array of other benefits but that is all secondary to the issue that a human has the right of free movement because he is a rational animal and has every right to seek out the freest nation where they can achieve the highest possible to them.

I know I didn't cover everything as I've written volumes on the topic but I hope the gist is caught.

And I'm happy to discuss this as far as anyone wants to go with it.
 
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deec77

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Thanks for the reply. I agree with most of what you wrote..... my biggest thing is just come legally.....wait your turn.

~Dee~
 

Inspector_50

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Strong borders/open immigration.

This is in response to Dee's question on my stance on this topic.

Let me just start out by saying that the time is not now to implement this. This country is far from fidelity to her founding principles currently, that so much would have to be changed for this to happen properly that it just should not be undertaken until many regulations, restrictions, welfare, and unjust laws are repealed and public education be seriously overhauled back to a classical nature or better yet abolished completely.

Let's start with the fundamentals, philosophically:

Metaphysics:
As Aristotle observed A is A. Every thing is something specific and can be nothing else at the same time.

Epistemology: Man is the rational animal. His basic tool of survival is his reasoning mind.

Ethics: Rational self-interest meaning that a man's life is the standard of value and that he be the recipient of the effects of all his actions.

Politics: In order to exercise his rational faculty man does not have to be free but to exercise it for his survival, flourishing and benefit he does.

Now that the basics are out of the way a proper rights-respecting nation does just that, protect an individual's right to life, liberty, and property as inviolate and nothing more. In fact, without property rights no other rights are possible.

A proper nation welcomes all comers so long as they are no physical threat to others.

The consequences are enormous and beautiful. Flourishing and human advancement to unprecedented levels.

Just think of how our ancestors just 100 years ago would view the incredible majesty of the growth of those years.

All feats achieved by immigrants.

And set the mind and strong hands-free and we can't even envision the future we could have. But I can see some.

Fallacies and false premises:

1. They'll take American jobs.

Most assuredly most come here to work but in a market economy, the creation of jobs and wealth is not a zero-sum game. What one makes takes nothing from anyone else. And in fact, many entrepreneurs have always come to this country to exercise their minds and as a result, created many jobs and built massive wealth.

One of America's greatest accomplishments was to coin the term "Make money. " For most of history, it was a zero-sum game. No longer.

2. Natural resources are limited on this landmass:

Fly over the continental US and you will see the vast wealth of land and opportunity everywhere you look.

If Hong Kong can build an incredible economy on an island with virtually no natural resources I'd say we're good.

But even if things were getting tight there are vast opportunities for growth such as man-made islands, purchase of more land from other nations, space stations, and things we just can't imagine that would be brought forth by the unleashing of the greatest of the natural resources, man's free mind.

3. And this is more philosophical in nature, they will change the US culture to their own:

So what, it won't happen but this country is the melting pot. Each of our ancestors brought with them parts of their culture and has made us all the richer culturally for it.

In fact, most first-generation immigrants stick to their own, not all, but their children and grandchildren assimilate.

What it boils down to is a nation is not a collective with the right to dispose of individuals as it sees fit.

A proper nation is a group of individuals who all possess the same rights and are protected by police, courts, and the military. It holds no rights above those of its constituent individuals and ought not own land, the means of production nor much else. So it has the right to keep bad actors out but ought to welcome all other immigrants with open arms.

Bottom line, we gain so much from immigrants, rich culture, new businesses, and a vast array of other benefits but that is all secondary to the issue that a human has the right of free movement because he is a rational animal and has every right to seek out the freest nation where they can achieve the highest possible to them.

I know I didn't cover everything as I've written volumes on the topic but I hope the gist is caught.

And I'm happy to discuss this as far as anyone wants to go with it.
Yeah all of that.
 
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johnlocke

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At this point this is a reasonable solution for now but this situation should never have happened.

 

aloyouis

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johnlocke

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Coltsfan2theend

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But wall bad, that is what they campaigned for against Trump. It is funny, now that Trump is out of office, a lot of things he said or wanted to do is happening. Last Fall he said there would be enough vaccines for anyone who wanted one by April, What is happening in most states?

In regards for the boarder wall, we are paying for it if it is completed or not, finish it.
 
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johnlocke

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What is happening at the border is a travesty. So much misery and hope that may never be realized because of an incompetent administration and the conservatives that have little clue.

Anyone with half a sense in their head saw this coming a mile away.

The issues as I have stated before are not that they are gonna take jobs, that's a bs zero-sum thinking game or our culture or whatever other issues you wanna throw in. The issue is they must come in appropriately.

Now our immigration laws are currently an abomination with R's calling for restricting visa's on international workers, which is dead wrong, and the left calling everyone to the border.

The answer is strong borders and open immigration for the greatness of the United States of America.

 
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johnlocke

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The latest issue of "As The Worm Turns".


Canada Can Keep Returning Asylum Seekers to U.S., Court Rules​

Decision reverses a lower-court ruling and sets up possible challenge in Supreme Court of Canada​



im-325596

Asylum seekers crossing the border from New York into Canada in March 2020. The number of people taking this route rose sharply during the Trump administration.​

PHOTO: RYAN REMIORZ/THE CANADIAN PRESS/ASSOCIATED PRESS
By
Kim Mackrael
April 15, 2021 6:32 pm ET


A Canadian court ruled that asylum seekers arriving in Canada at official border crossings can be turned back to the U.S., reversing an earlier decision that found the practice to be in violation of Canadian law.

Thursday’s ruling has broad implications for both the U.S. and Canada in how officials will handle those who approach the Canadian border through the U.S. and are from third countries, such as the wave of asylum seekers from Haiti and Nigeria that entered Canada over land in 2017 and 2018. Under a 2020 ruling, which had not yet come into effect, Canada would have been obligated to let those individuals enter at official border crossings, where they would have had an opportunity to file their asylum claims in Canada.

The latest decision means Canada can continue to return asylum seekers to the U.S.

The appeals court said last year’s decision was flawed because there wasn’t enough evidence in a case that had constitutional repercussions. The lower court, it said, leaned too heavily on anecdotes, select evidence and media reports.

Human rights and refugee groups had argued Canada was violating asylum seekers’ rights by returning them to the U.S., where they faced imprisonment and the possibility of being deported to their home country—an action that might put their safety at risk.

Thursday’s court ruling deals with a pact known as the Safe Third Country Agreement, which was signed by Canada and the U.S. in 2002 and requires asylum seekers to make their claims for protection in whichever safe country they enter first. The Canadian government has said it reviews its designation of the U.S. as a safe country regularly, although it doesn’t make the details of those assessments public.

The case, which was first filed in 2017, has drawn attention in recent years because of a sharp rise in the number of asylum seekers who crossed into Canada from the U.S. by foot during the Trump administration. Those who entered the country during that time did so primarily at an unofficial border crossing between New York state and the Canadian province of Quebec—where the Safe Third Country Agreement doesn’t apply—and they were generally able to file asylum claims in Canada. That unofficial route was cut off last year when the government tightened border restrictions in response to the coronavirus pandemic.

Any challenge could set the stage for the Supreme Court of Canada to issue a landmark ruling on asylum policy.
Last summer, the Federal Court of Canada ruled that the designation of the U.S. as a safe third country violated asylum seekers’ rights to liberty and security under Canada’s Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It said individuals who were returned to the U.S. by Canadian officials were being detained there as a penalty and faced the risk of being deported to a dangerous situation.

The Federal Court of Appeal disagreed. It said systemic conclusions had been drawn about the U.S. treatment of asylum seekers based on individual incidents. Although there was evidence of cases of substandard treatment, it said, “there was no evidence that could support a finding that the treatment of returnees to the United States at the Canada-United States border ‘shocks the conscience.’”

The Canadian Council for Refugees, one of three advocacy groups that initiated the court challenge, said it was disappointed in Thursday’s decision.

“Our organizations have spent years bringing forth this challenge,” said Janet Dench, the council’s executive director.
Ms. Dench said the council and other groups involved in the case hadn’t yet decided whether to apply to bring the matter before Canada’s Supreme Court.

A statement from Canada’s immigration and public safety ministers said the Safe Third Country Agreement has served Canada well and ensures the border remains well managed.

The U.S., meanwhile, is facing a surge of migrants at the border with Mexico, creating significant political and policy challenges for President Biden. Single adults are being sent back to Mexico under a public-health law that was implemented by former President Donald Trump and has been maintained by Mr. Biden. Unaccompanied children and some families are being released into the U.S. while their asylum cases are processed.

The Department of Homeland Security didn’t reply to a request for comment on the Canadian court ruling.
 
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johnlocke

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Wrong state, wench.

31 days after she was appointed in charge of the southern border Harris hasn't been there and has barely spoken about it but thank god she can have a camping trip in NH with the awful Maggie Hassan.

 
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johnlocke

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Everyone knows what is happening down there. This limiting of access is foolish and there will be blowback.

 

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For me it's an either / or. Either you have free and unlimited immigration (which I would be down with) or you have strong government welfare and support programs (which I support some things which could be perceived as being this, including but not limited to free college). But you can't do both. From an economics perspective, there is unlimited demand for services when the cost is zero. The government support programs offered by the USA currently outstrip living standards for the majority of the world. If we had unlimited free immigration as it stands now, we'd have easily a billion people who would come across, and though I totally agree that the USA has the space and resources to handle incoming immigration, that kind of mass migration all at once would both rip our existing infrastructure to shreds and bankrupt us in a hurry.

Eliminate all or most state welfare programs, and offer those coming across just raw opportunity without a handout, and absolutely I'm down, open the borders on up. As it stands, I totally favor legal immigration but believe it's our moral and fiscal responsibility to limit the pace of immigration. Regardless, I think it makes sense to have the systems in place to be able to control immigration and know who is coming into our country, because we have an obligation to ensure the safety of those who live here, and there are those who legitimately wish to cause harm. Not many, certainly not all, but there are definitely some.

My ideal would be this:
  • Eliminate the war on drugs
  • Eliminate welfare, massively overhaul social security
  • Offer subsidized job training and useful (STEM) education
  • Remove immigration caps

In that order. Not moving on to the next until the previous one is in place. With still having effective border control measures in place at all times.
 
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