Looking at the Patriots 2023
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Flagg the Wanderer
Spending a year dead for tax purposes
I went back and watched the early preseason games and the Philly game, focusing on one player, and here's the skinny:
Keion White is good.
And by all accounts he's all about continuous improvement and a total sponge. He is still (! I said "still" and it's week 1 of his rookie year!) making mental mistakes, but damn if he doesn't make them at 130 mph and still manage to fuck shit up. In that Philly game you saw him make a mistake in the first quarter and catch himself and play an almost identical situation correctly in the 2nd half. He is self scouting in real time, and making corrections without repping it in practice. That's astonishing.
But he's barely scratching the surface. His edge setting, communication, and DL games (stunts, etc.) will improve, and he'll continue to build up his pass rush book and the mental part of the pass rush game - using early moves to set up later moves.
But I'm looking at the potential of his adding just one particular move. With his build, his play strength and suddenness...with what we hear about his work ethic and how he is such a dedicated student...
Look, at some point this kid is going to develop a hump move. Most modern edge rushers are too small and speed focused to have a hump move that can work on today's dancing bear OTs who are 350+, but White can. Only a few of your larger ends have a real hump move that is consistently effective. It looks brutal and almost...thuggish, but it's the outcome of a lot of subtle manipulation of weight and center of gravity. It takes study and a lot of practice. White has the weight, the build, and the violence of motion to develop an absolutely lethal hump move. And when he does, and incorporates it into his book/sequence, properly setting guys up for it early in games...holy crap is he going to be hard to stop.
Some of you of a certain vintage might remember having a pre-Brady Superbowl appearance absolutely ruined by the most famous hump move of them all, which transformed Max Lane into a Passing Lane and changed the arc of Drew Bledsoe's career. Because the absolute master of the hump move also happened to be named White.
View: https://youtube.com/shorts/VJSSdU2KAeY?si=4jsTPVlXAMjW6gcu
We're a long way from there, but I'll say it: Keion White's extreme ceiling is Reggie White. I've been looking for what might cap him, or keep him from that ceiling, but the only things I see are situational, injury, or loss of interest.
Tell me what I'm missing.
Keion White is good.
And by all accounts he's all about continuous improvement and a total sponge. He is still (! I said "still" and it's week 1 of his rookie year!) making mental mistakes, but damn if he doesn't make them at 130 mph and still manage to fuck shit up. In that Philly game you saw him make a mistake in the first quarter and catch himself and play an almost identical situation correctly in the 2nd half. He is self scouting in real time, and making corrections without repping it in practice. That's astonishing.
But he's barely scratching the surface. His edge setting, communication, and DL games (stunts, etc.) will improve, and he'll continue to build up his pass rush book and the mental part of the pass rush game - using early moves to set up later moves.
But I'm looking at the potential of his adding just one particular move. With his build, his play strength and suddenness...with what we hear about his work ethic and how he is such a dedicated student...
Look, at some point this kid is going to develop a hump move. Most modern edge rushers are too small and speed focused to have a hump move that can work on today's dancing bear OTs who are 350+, but White can. Only a few of your larger ends have a real hump move that is consistently effective. It looks brutal and almost...thuggish, but it's the outcome of a lot of subtle manipulation of weight and center of gravity. It takes study and a lot of practice. White has the weight, the build, and the violence of motion to develop an absolutely lethal hump move. And when he does, and incorporates it into his book/sequence, properly setting guys up for it early in games...holy crap is he going to be hard to stop.
Some of you of a certain vintage might remember having a pre-Brady Superbowl appearance absolutely ruined by the most famous hump move of them all, which transformed Max Lane into a Passing Lane and changed the arc of Drew Bledsoe's career. Because the absolute master of the hump move also happened to be named White.
View: https://youtube.com/shorts/VJSSdU2KAeY?si=4jsTPVlXAMjW6gcu
We're a long way from there, but I'll say it: Keion White's extreme ceiling is Reggie White. I've been looking for what might cap him, or keep him from that ceiling, but the only things I see are situational, injury, or loss of interest.
Tell me what I'm missing.
Flagg the Wanderer
Spending a year dead for tax purposes
Self quote to reinforce, and add that Keion is actually much more athletic than Reggie was, though obviously athletes generally have been more athletic, so his competition is as well. But even adjusting for era, this is pretty stark.
Reggie is first:
I don't think you are missing much, but to throw out Reggie White, at this point is probably setting the bar way to high. He could be half that and still be a multiple pro bowl player. We can hope, he doesn't carry himself as a rookie, and to be honest, aside from his physical skills, I'm really encouraged by what kind of leader he's going to be, strikes me as a no nonsense kind of guy that will naturally get the attention of his teammates with his approach to the game. Basically see him becoming a tone setter and we haven't really had that since the likes of Vince.
'Quiet' Patriots' rookie Christian Gonzalez lets his play do the talking
Teammates describe Gonzalez as "chill" and "observant," but in his NFL debut, he played every snap and had seven tackles and a sack.
2. JuJu’s juice: Perhaps the most surprising storyline from the Patriots’ season opener was that veteran receiver JuJu Smith-Schuster wasn’t on the field in crunch time as part of the two-minute offense. Overall, he played 43 of 80 snaps -- a bottom-line revelation that despite signing a three-year, $25 million contract, he isn’t currently viewed as an every-package player. For Week 1, at least, that was receiver Kendrick Bourne (73 of 80 snaps), with sixth-round pick Kayshon Boutte (55) also playing more than Smith-Schuster (4 catches, 33 yards). My read: The Patriots view Smith-Schuster as primarily an inside receiver, and with Hunter Henry, Mike Gesicki, Rhamondre Stevenson, Kendrick Bourne and Demario “Pop” Douglas also at their best working that area, it is a bit of a logjam compared to the outside, where there is room to elevate speedster Jalen Reagor from the practice squad (as insurance and/or a possible complement to DeVante Parker) for Sunday night’s game.
9. Did you know, Part I: Tagovailoa, the Dolphins' quarterback, is 4-0 all-time against Belichick, which puts him in rare company, as there are only three quarterbacks who are 5-0 or better against a Super Bowl-winning coach -- Russell Wilson (6-0 vs. Doug Pederson), Peyton Manning (6-0 vs. Tom Coughlin), and Chris Chandler (5-0 against Mike Ditka).
10. Did you know, Part II: If Tagovailoa records his fifth consecutive win over the Patriots, it would tie Neil O’Donnell for the longest win streak by a starting quarterback vs. Belichick in his head-coaching career.
which illustrates why it's dopey to call Ws a qb stat.
spacecrime
Well-known member
+1 unless it's for multi-seasons, but.....
Mazz22
A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies.
It's not dopey. Pitchers in baseball also carry W-L record as do goalies in hockey.
Hummmm pitchers throw to the other team to strike them out, not to their teammates, and goalies prevent the other team from scoring …. quarterbacks throw or hand off to their teammates who then do their job, but I digress.
~Dee~
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Mazz22
A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies.
It has been proven over and over that the play of the quarterback determines wins and losses more than any other player on the team. Pitchers of course only pitch once every five days while your starting quarterback plays every game if healthy. As you correctly stated goalies can save a game, but they can’t win a game the way a quarterback can.
Lol no It hasn’t but carry on. Offense wins games defense win championships pretty simple even for you.
~Dee~
Mazz22
A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies.
There is a reason that the only player that carries the win loss record is the quarterback.
It was never a thing until ESPN made it a thing. Coaches, yes. QBs? No.
spacecrime
Well-known member
This is true.
What is not true is that the QB is solely responsiblle for the win, and especially it is absolutely not true that:
Team A beat team B
Therefore the Team A QB is better than the Team B QB, which was the start of this discussion.
You're getting awful close to Eli Manning is a better QB than Tom Brady because he beat Brady 2-0 when it matteredd most. Flirting with Josh is fine, but no need to dump on your ex.
Mazz22
A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies.
I had not read through the discussion. I think W-L is like any other stat, it needs context. I don't believe in taking any one stat to make a case about anything especially in this era of advanced metrics. Generally speaking, QBs have the most effect on the outcomes of games. I think we all agree on that except for Dee. That does not mean every game is determined solely by the play of QB but his contributions or mistakes drastically shape the chances of his team to win or lose hence why he gets the W-L record as a stat.
A celebrity will be asked to ring the lighthouse bell before each home game.
Tonight the bell ringer is Chad Ochocinco.
View: https://twitter.com/Patriots/status/1703522294818079085
Tonight the bell ringer is Chad Ochocinco.
View: https://twitter.com/Patriots/status/1703522294818079085
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First thought was why.
I said no such thing once again offense wins games defense wins championships this isn’t brain surgery….. so if the Patriots defense wasn’t on top of things in playoff games we wouldn’t have won some ie Seattle, a perfect example, and we lost to the Giants twice …. Once because of offense and the second was a combo of offense and defense. Im old enough to remember the Patriots back in the day you on the other hand …..
~Dee~
Mazz22
A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies.
None of that has anything to do with the W-L record of the QB ...I said no such thing once again offense wins games defense wins championships this isn’t brain surgery….. so if the Patriots defense wasn’t on top of things in playoff games we wouldn’t have won some ie Seattle, a perfect example, and we lost to the Giants twice …. Once because of offense and the second was a combo of offense and defense. Im old enough to remember the Patriots back in the day you on the other hand …..
~Dee~