Malaysian airliner crashes in E. Ukraine near Russian border ? reports

Pyxis

First one at MY house
Joined
Jun 8, 2008
Messages
19,245
Reaction score
2,197
Points
113
Location
Texas, Bitches
Air Algerie AH5017 crashes in Niger with 110 passengers and 6 crew - reports

http://rt.com/news/175264-algeria-plane-crash-ah5017/

First Malaysian Airline

Second Malaysian Airline

Taiwan

Now this.

Thoughts, anyone?

I believe the Taiwanese crash was due to the weather system in place.

It's a tragic coincidence. But, I wouldn't get on a plane in that part of the world for any reason right now.
Posted via Mobile Device
 

O_P_T

Why Be Normal
Joined
Aug 14, 2004
Messages
21,803
Reaction score
2,602
Points
113
Age
62
Location
Windsor, CT
Here, let me post it in context.

Shelton: Russia's Doubt Over US Satellite Capabilities Shows 'Desperation'

“We also have some questions for our U.S. partners,” Russian Lt. Gen. Andrei Kartopolov said, according to Reuters. “According to the U.S. declarations, they have satellite images that confirm the missile was launched by the rebels. But nobody has seen these images. If the American side has pictures from this satellite, then they should show the international community.”

Shelton said Kartopolov‘s dubiousness over the U.S. capability sounded “like an act of desperation to me.”

“What I found somewhat humorous in that quote is the thought that we wouldn’t have global coverage,” Shelton said. “We do have global coverage, 24/7.”■


http://www.defensenews.com/article/...-US-Satellite-Capabilities-Shows-Desperation-

And let me quote the full context.

Gen. William Shelton, commander of US Air Force Space Command, would not confirm that the Air Force’s Space Based Infrared Systems constellation of satellites was involved in detecting the surface-to-air missile launch that brought down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. He said, however, that the system is made up of “very good satellites. They are very sensitive, and they are very accurate.”

SBIRS is a constellation of four geosynchronous-orbit satellites, two highly elliptical Earth-orbit payloads and ground control stations that provide global infrared surveillance. Shelton would only confirm that Air Force Space Command can track strategic missiles. He said the Air Force has the capability to see smaller missiles and test activity from space, “but beyond that we can’t talk about.”

The US Embassy in Kiev released a statement Saturday stating that the U.S. had detected a surface-to-air missile launch from a separatist-controlled area in southeastern Ukraine, believed to be a Russian-made SA-11. Shelton said there were several sources, in addition to the publicly released images of contrails that made the rounds on social media, that support the contention that a separatist missile brought down the airliner.​

So he refused to say they detected the SA-11 missile.

He said they could track "strategic" missiles.

He said they had a "capability to see" smaller missiles.

So no, no where does he say that they actually detected the SAM. It was the US Embassy that said it was detected a launch and didn't say what technology was used to do that.

And he specifically states, as well...

Shelton would only confirm that Air Force Space Command can track strategic missiles. He said the Air Force has the capability to see smaller missiles and test activity from space, “but beyond that we can’t talk about.”

So, your position is that General Shelton is wrong, is that correct?

I was quite clear in my explanation of his statement. the fact that they have the capability to detect smaller missiles in some circumstances does not mean they can do it in all circumstances.

Oh and I would fully expect his to exaggerate their capability under the right circumstances. If the other guys think you know all and see all, then that is a deterrent in its own right.

By the way, all you have to do is calibrate the sensors to detect only blooms above that of normal ambient temperature...let's say 200 degrees F.

You calibrate above normal range ambient temperature, so that the field is black, and then when you get a heat bloom, you measure the flux.

It's done in astronomy all the time.

EDIT: By the way, it's not temperature differential they detect, anyway. It's wavelength. There's a difference. It's one thing to have an infrared scope that yo0u may use on, say, a rifle.It's another if you build detectors that operate at specific frequencies, or wavelengths.
It's kind of like our eyes. We do not see infrared, but we see the visible spectrum just fine. You can build a detector that cannot see visible light, or near infrared, or short wave infrared, but can see mid or long wave infrared just fine. That's why they have mid and long wave detectors on the satellites. By cross referencing the wavelength and the flux, you know what sort of heat bloom you are looking at.

:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Now you've really demonstrated you don't know what you're talking about.

Have you ever done any type of IR survey?

I have. We use IR detectors to do non-destructive testing where I work all the time.

The frequency of the IR signal is the temperature.

300px-Wiens_law.svg.png


You don't measure the flux, you measure the peak amplitude within the IR spectrum and from that you determine the temperature.

Whatever sensor you use for that has some spatial and frequency resolution.

You can only resolve something within those limits. The larger the temperature difference in any given data point the easier it is to detect.

So the heat bloom from an ICBM is so much larger than the ambient background these resolution limits don't matter and you can track it. The less a difference and the more of an impact the resolution limit becomes. When the ΔT is of the same order as the resolution limit, you can't distinguish it.

You'll also note that the frequency curves become flatter and flatter as the temperature gets smaller. So for a smaller temperature, the sharpness of the peak frequency is less, making it harder to resolve that peak. This makes the resolution less at the lower temperature range for any given detector than at the higher temperature range.

I won't even go into the potential impact of emissivity , optical depth or the impact of the atmosphere
 
OP
Baron Samedi

Baron Samedi

Russian Bot 762X54R
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
29,394
Reaction score
2,927
Points
113
Age
52
Location
Framingham
You may not realize it, but you just proved my argument.

What you call "frequency" is wavelength.

"Flux" is just an extrapolation of how much light is captured in a telescope relative to the area of a telescope, so a larger telescope, that picks up more light, gets divided by a larger number, the area of the collector. That's all flux is.

While I don't know much about your IR survey, I know a LOT about smoke detectors, and more particularly what an IR3 detector is and how they work.

IR satellites are just a glorified IR3 smoke detector attached to a telescope, which is something I have an amateur understanding of as well.
 

O_P_T

Why Be Normal
Joined
Aug 14, 2004
Messages
21,803
Reaction score
2,602
Points
113
Age
62
Location
Windsor, CT
You may not realize it, but you just proved my argument.

No, I didn't.

What you call "frequency" is wavelength.

Actually, "I" don't call it frequency, Physics does.

And yes, frequency and wavelength are related via the following equation.

v = f • λ​

Where V is the velocity of the wave
F is the frequency
λ is the wavelength.

"Flux" is just an extrapolation of how much light is captured in a telescope relative to the area of a telescope, so a larger telescope, that picks up more light, gets divided by a larger number, the area of the collector. That's all flux is.

No, flux is the rate of something passing through a given area.

flux
~snip~
Physics
a. The rate of flow of fluid, particles, or energy through a given surface.

b. See flux density.

c. The lines of force of an electric or magnetic field.​


While I don't know much about your IR survey, I know a LOT about smoke detectors, and more particularly what an IR3 detector is and how they work.

IR satellites are just a glorified IR3 smoke detector attached to a telescope, which is something I have an amateur understanding of as well.

So you know how IR3 detectors work do you?

Did you know that they look at specific wavelengths?

What are these wavelengths?

Two of them are 4.4 µm another is 2.7 µm.

Why those two wavelengths?

Why they happen to be the absorption bands for CO2 and H2O respectively.

Why did they pick those two chemicals?

They are chemicals associated with a fire.

Another factor they often consider is the modulation of the signal. A flame flickers at a characteristic frequency (not to be confused with the IR frequency/wavelength), which modulates the signal.

An actual flame has a specific set of characteristics in each of these three categories, and that is how these IR3 detectors work.

They don't simply look for a specific temperature, flux, frequency, wavelength, or whatever you've suggested would be done for monitoring a missile launch.

Oh and what are the limitations of IR3 detectors?

Well one vendor claims the following.

The 40/40I IR3 can detect a 1ft2 (0.1 m2) gasoline pan fire at 215 ft (65m) in less than 5 seconds.​

So what if the fire is less than a square foot? Further away than 215 ft? What if it isn't gasoline burning? Will it be detected?

:shrug:

So what does the size of the fire and the distance signify?

Those are the spatial resolution issues I have previously described. If the detector is further away or the fire is smaller, then it's "too small" to be certain of detection.

What does the claim of a gasoline fire signify?

That the system is designed to detect a specific item and deviations from that will impact the capability.

So if you think that the SBIRS system works like an IR3 detector, then it has the very same limitations I've previously mentioned.
 
OP
Baron Samedi

Baron Samedi

Russian Bot 762X54R
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
29,394
Reaction score
2,927
Points
113
Age
52
Location
Framingham
So....ummm.....

No commentary since it was discovered that MH17's cockpit was riddled with 30MM bullet holes, eh?

I didn't think so.

Now that we know Ukraine shot down MH17 with an SU-25 30MM cannon and air to air missile, do we bomb Ukraine? Just asking.

btdfpohceaaoywp.jpg

MH17-FT-Analysis.png

MH%2017%20Evidence%20iii.jpg

400px-MH17_cockpit_right_window_frame_bullet_holes.png

csm_MH17_Schusse_Tragflaeche_c5b6a474a4.jpg

bttxg5hieaafmyr.jpg

MH17-3.jpg


Looks like Carlos the Spanish traffic controller and Russian radar was right, after all.

No wonder the US never released any of it's evidence. No wonder Ukraine refused to honor the cease fire to take control of the crash site.
 

O_P_T

Why Be Normal
Joined
Aug 14, 2004
Messages
21,803
Reaction score
2,602
Points
113
Age
62
Location
Windsor, CT
So....ummm.....

No commentary since it was discovered that MH17's cockpit was riddled with 30MM bullet holes, eh?

I didn't think so.

Now that we know Ukraine shot down MH17 with an SU-25 30MM cannon and air to air missile, do we bomb Ukraine? Just asking.

btdfpohceaaoywp.jpg

MH17-FT-Analysis.png

MH%2017%20Evidence%20iii.jpg

400px-MH17_cockpit_right_window_frame_bullet_holes.png

csm_MH17_Schusse_Tragflaeche_c5b6a474a4.jpg

bttxg5hieaafmyr.jpg

MH17-3.jpg


Looks like Carlos the Spanish traffic controller and Russian radar was right, after all.

No wonder the US never released any of it's evidence. No wonder Ukraine refused to honor the cease fire to take control of the crash site.

So we "know that" huh?

Do you have any idea just what is in the warhead of a SA-11 missile?

The Teeth

The original missile launched by the SA-11 is known by its designator 9M38. One missile alone is just over eighteen feet long, weighs 1,521 pounds, and contains a 154.3 pound Fragmentation-High Explosive warhead that detonates based on radar proximity fuse. With a two-stage solid rocket fuel engine and roughly fifteen seconds of burn time, the 9M38 can reach an altitude of 46,000 feet and has a range of nineteen miles. It reaches speeds of over 2,000 miles per hour (almost 3,400 feet per second!), traveling at Mach 3. Using semi-active radar homing, the missile is sent flight path corrections based on proportional navigation computations performed by the SPM while the missile is in flight, allowing it to correctly find its way to its target for a successful intercept.

Yeah, clearly such a fragmentation warhead couldn't possibly create holes like that in the plane. Yeah, it must have been a SU25. :facepalm:

I have one very very simple question for you.

Have you ever made a post where you stated or acknowledged that any event where an opponent of the US was accused of doing something where you didn't insist it was a false flag operation?

I honestly can't think of a single example, but I accept that I haven't read 100% of the posts here.

I ask because you seem to always be willing to give the benefit of the doubt, regardless of any actual evidence, to the opponents of the US and assume that the US, or her "allies" must be the "bad guys".
 
OP
Baron Samedi

Baron Samedi

Russian Bot 762X54R
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
29,394
Reaction score
2,927
Points
113
Age
52
Location
Framingham
So we "know that" huh?

Do you have any idea just what is in the warhead of a SA-11 missile?



Yeah, clearly such a fragmentation warhead couldn't possibly create holes like that in the plane. Yeah, it must have been a SU25. :facepalm:

I have one very very simple question for you.

Have you ever made a post where you stated or acknowledged that any event where an opponent of the US was accused of doing something where you didn't insist it was a false flag operation?

I honestly can't think of a single example, but I accept that I haven't read 100% of the posts here.

I ask because you seem to always be willing to give the benefit of the doubt, regardless of any actual evidence, to the opponents of the US and assume that the US, or her "allies" must be the "bad guys".

Interesting that a fragmentation explosive would make 30MM regular circular holes, on both sides, and only in the forward section of the plane.

I am still awaiting any hard evidence to be released by the US.

Not talking points and "classified intelligence"....evidence.

Interesting that the one nation with the most intelligence assets, is the one nation that cannot, or has not, produced any intelligence for the investigation.
 
OP
Baron Samedi

Baron Samedi

Russian Bot 762X54R
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
29,394
Reaction score
2,927
Points
113
Age
52
Location
Framingham
<~~~~ this guy said it was shot down but no one listened. Not so crazy now am I... It was a failed attempt to knock off Putin.

I don't think so.

The Ukrainians had been using civilian aircraft as cover for their jets on sorties to prevent being fired upon.

This was reported a month prior to MH17.

I think it was shot down precisely to blame it on the separatists, as they had been trying to provoke them to shoot down a civilian liner for weeks, if not months prior.
 

O_P_T

Why Be Normal
Joined
Aug 14, 2004
Messages
21,803
Reaction score
2,602
Points
113
Age
62
Location
Windsor, CT
Interesting that a fragmentation explosive would make 30MM regular circular holes, on both sides, and only in the forward section of the plane.

The fact that it is in the front of the plane works against an aircraft.

As far as the uniform size of the holes, that is consistent with a fragmentation warhead used with a SAM.

From the Washington Post

Photographs emerge of shrapnel damage on Malaysia Airlines Flight 17

From the debris of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 in eastern Ukraine, the first potential forensic proof of what shot down the doomed airliner is starting to appear on social media as more observers access the crash site.

ICYMI, the @FT‘s photo of remnants of MH17 cockpit, peppered w shrapnel & blown apart by SAM http://t.co/BzVvDq9ndq pic.twitter.com/PN2rr50mDs — Sam Jones (@samgadjones) July 21, 2014

The images show pieces of the aircraft riddled with holes roughly the size of a child’s fist. Evidence, some experts say, of a surface-to-air missile’s distinct detonation pattern.

“Although many of the holes may vary in size, the punctures seen in the photograph attached are relatively uniform in size, consistent with patterns exhibited by fragmentary warheads detonated at a proximity from the target,” Jane’s Military Capabilities Manager Reed Foster said in an e-mail. “This would potentially be consistent with a fragmentation type warhead employed upon a number of modern and legacy surface-to-air missile systems.”

Most surface-to-air missiles, such as those fired by the SA-11 or Buk M1 systems that the U.S. believes shot down MH17, detonate more than 50 feet away from their intended target. This premature detonation allows for a maximum spread of fragmentation into the airframe, damaging or destroying critical components to the aircraft including the engines, flaps and wings.

The pictures on Twitter also show a large amount of shrapnel impacts on what appears to be the cockpit portion of the aircraft. This overabundance of damage to the front of the plane potentially rules out an air-to-air missile attack, as a jet firing a missile at another aircraft usually engages from the rear. Additionally, surface-to-air missiles are traditionally more lethal as they contain larger explosive payloads than their air-to-air counterparts.

“There are historic examples of civilian aircraft surviving air-to-air missile engagement, but not of surface-to-air engagements, presumably due to the higher explosive yield/blast-wave as well as significantly more fragmentary materiel,” Foster wrote.

Yet according to James Hackett, a senior fellow for Defense and Military Analysis at The International Institute for Strategic Studies, even though most evidence points to a surface-to-air attack it is still impossible to be completely sure without pieces of the warhead that destroyed MH17.

“Without additional evidence…either in the form of additional fuselage sections or fragments from the weapon itself (such as from the warhead or casing) it is impossible to be more specific in identifying the precise mode of engagement or, definitively, the system employed,” Hackett wrote in an e-mail.


I am still awaiting any hard evidence to be released by the US.

Not talking points and "classified intelligence"....evidence.

Interesting that the one nation with the most intelligence assets, is the one nation that cannot, or has not, produced any intelligence for the investigation.

Assuming they have any data, revealing it would simply tell the rest of the world what they can and cannot measure, detect, sense, etc.

Why should they reveal their capabilities?

Those who did it know what they did.
 

O_P_T

Why Be Normal
Joined
Aug 14, 2004
Messages
21,803
Reaction score
2,602
Points
113
Age
62
Location
Windsor, CT
I'd still like to see more facts before I make my own decision, but here are two links that present the most recent support for Baron's case:

http://larouchepac.com/node/31501

http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_67273.shtml

As far as this item is concerned.

I noticed this bit in the article.

The New Straits Times report constitutes a powerful accusation not only against the Ukrainian government, but against Washington, Berlin, and their European allies. They installed the Kiev regime through a fascist-led putsch in February. They then deployed a series of intelligence operatives and Blackwater mercenaries who are closely coordinating the various fascist militias and National Guard units fighting for Kiev on the ground in east Ukraine, where MH17 was shot down.

The use of the term "fascist" suggests they are not entirely impartial on this topic since that is a claim that Putin made repeatedly about the Ukrainian government.

There were two other comments that provided "evidence".

It cited "experts who had said that the photographs of the blast fragmentation patterns on the fuselage of the airliner showed two distinct shapes -- the shredding pattern associated with a warhead packed with 'flechettes,' and the more uniform, round-type penetration holes consistent with that of cannon rounds."

...

Finally, the New Straits Times and Parry both cited retired Lufthansa pilot Peter Haisenko, who has pointed to photographic evidence of MH17 wreckage suggesting that cockpit panels were raked with heavy machine gun fire from both the port and starboard sides. "Nobody before Haisenko had noticed that the projectiles had ripped through the panel from both its left side and its right side. This is what rules out any ground-fired missile," Parry wrote.

There were numerous reports of fighting between the rebels and Ukranian forces in the area of the crash site, see this for but one example.

If we assume that these holes cannot be created by a SAM warhead, then were they created during the fighting after the crash?

BTW, the WP story I cited in my other post referenced this photo as one the expert from Jane's indicated was clearly due to a SAM. You might recognize it.

b324fdf5-fb31-447b-9cd5-1500d2ecca8b.img
 

mooseontheloose

See, moose love the Pats too!
Joined
Jan 1, 2007
Messages
15,552
Reaction score
1,122
Points
113
Location
Great White North
I noticed that too, which is why I said I still need more actual facts. However, I thought those two links provided a half-decent summary of the 'Ukraine did it' side of the argument.
 

patswin

WTF
Political Forum Moderator
Joined
Jan 18, 2004
Messages
12,506
Reaction score
3,212
Points
113
Location
Gelatinous, Mass
I noticed that too, which is why I said I still need more actual facts. However, I thought those two links provided a half-decent summary of the 'Ukraine did it' side of the argument.

Lyndon Larouche is one of the strangest people in existence and I wouldn't take any site associated with him seriously! He is a visitor from an alternate universe. ROFL
 
OP
Baron Samedi

Baron Samedi

Russian Bot 762X54R
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
29,394
Reaction score
2,927
Points
113
Age
52
Location
Framingham
The current Ukraine government is composed of a party called "Pravy Sektor".
The ideology of the various parties are ultra-nationalist, with the strongest faction, I believe, called "Svoboda", translated as "All Ukrainian Union", which was founded as the "Social National Party of Ukraine"...i.e..."national socialists", i.e. "nazi".

Only ethnically pure Ukrainians are allowed to be members. They revere the OUN, an ultra nationalist fascist organization from the 20th century.

When the politicans of "Pravy Sektor" give speeches, they use ethnic slurs for Russians and Jews.

Now, I can't entirely slander Svoboda, they have a lot of good anti-corruption stuff, right to bear arms, flat tax, and some other laudable things.

But they are 100% fascists, economically, with union of state and corporate hegemony, and with their ethnic purity principles.

Mind you, I don't much care, it's Ukraine.

But it is one of the reasons why I don't favor one side or the other in the Ukraine-Russia conflict.

Here are a few highlights of their platform with a link to the whole;

7. Set the graph "nationality" in the passport and birth certificate. Determine the nationality by birth certificate or birth certificate of the parents, considering the requests of the citizen.

8. Implement a criminal penalty for any displays of Ukrainophobia.

8. Create own closed nuclear cycle based on domestic raw materials. Construct public infrastructure necessary for the storage and disposal of spent nuclear fuel.

11. Adopt a law on strategic companies and strategic industries. Disallow the privatization of strategic enterprises and return to state ownership ones that were privatized earlier. Ensure state control over natural monopolies.

12. Check the legality of the privatization of all large enterprises (in which the average number of employees exceeds one thousand persons annually or the gross revenue from sales of the product in a year exceeds fifty million hryvnias). Return illegally privatized facilities to state and workers ownership.

21. Allow persons who acquired ownership of agricultural land by lawful means (when shared, or obtained by an inheritance by law) to sell these plots of land exclusively to the state. Disallow any other means of transfer of such sites. Disclaim the ownership of agricultural land acquired by debt receipts.

53. Return companies-monopolists of electricity, gas, heat, water supply and sanitation to communal ownership of territorial communities.

3. Implement a "Reproductive Health of the Nation" program. Disallow abortion except due to medical issues, and/or rape, which were proved in court. Align the implementation of illegal abortion to attempted murder in the criminal law.

13. Organize adequate state control over healthcare workers, sanitary working conditions and public safety in manufacturing.

1. Adopt a new Citizenship Act, under which citizenship will be given only to those persons who were born in Ukraine or are ethnically Ukrainian, who returned from abroad for permanent living and working in Ukraine. Allow people born in Ukraine from foreigners or stateless persons to acquire Ukrainian citizenship upon reaching age of majority only under the conditions of Ukrainian language fluency, knowledge of Ukrainian history and content of the Constitution of Ukraine.

4. Eliminate the illegal practice of dual citizenship. Deprive of Ukrainian citizenship persons who hide that they are citizens of another state.

5. Confiscate property and capital goods acquired in Ukraine from offenders of the Citizenship Act to the state.

6. Facilitate the mass returning to Ukraine of ethnic Ukrainians. Ensure preferential terms for returning home of Ukrainians and their descendants born abroad.

16. Provide place in higher educational institutions' dormitories primarily for Ukrainian, not foreign students.

17. Carry out regular inspections of Foreigners Registration materials coming from schools with lists of students who actually enrolled in them. Ensure timely exit from the territory of Ukraine of foreign students who are expelled from schools.

12. Adopt a state program of patriotic education and hardening the nature of the young generation. Provide active leisure and recreation for children and youth. Promote youth networks and patriotic organizations, sports groups, clubs, summer camps for children and youth.

13. Acknowledge that the struggle, which was taking place until the end of the 1950-ies by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA), was a national liberation struggle of the Ukrainian people. Acknowledge UPA soldiers and OUN underground fighters to be members of the national liberation struggle for independence of Ukraine.

16. Disseminate the truth about the Ukrainian liberation struggle in the twentieth century by means of social advertising, public parliamentary hearings, documentary and feature films, book publishing and more. Implement a course of studying the history of the Ukrainian liberation struggle in the twentieth century in all schools.

18. Revive traditional Ukrainian holidays. Introduce state-level celebration on the second Sunday in May of traditional for the Ukrainians Mother's Day.

19. Announce October 14 (St. Pokrova - patron saint of Ukrainian Cossacks, the day of the creation of UPA) to be a national holiday - the Day of Ukrainian Weaponry. Cancel celebration of 23th February - the so-called "Fatherland Defender Day" (of the Soviet army).

http://en.svoboda.org.ua/about/program/

And this document is very mild compared to the propaganda of the Ukranian government.

So, yes, the Ukranian government is 100% ultra nationalist socialist, anti semitic, ethnically pure nazi ideology. Ukraine today is Germany 1930's.

If this group ever gains any real strength, they are bad, bad news.

svoboda-party-nazi4.jpg


Regarding the above picture of Svoboda members...that symbol on the flag and armbands is the "Wolfsangel"...similar to the swastika, and was a symbol used in various Nazi units in WW2, including the 2nd Panzer, and the Hitler Youth.
 

O_P_T

Why Be Normal
Joined
Aug 14, 2004
Messages
21,803
Reaction score
2,602
Points
113
Age
62
Location
Windsor, CT
The current Ukraine government is composed of a party called "Pravy Sektor".
The ideology of the various parties are ultra-nationalist, with the strongest faction, I believe, called "Svoboda", translated as "All Ukrainian Union", which was founded as the "Social National Party of Ukraine"...i.e..."national socialists", i.e. "nazi".

Only ethnically pure Ukrainians are allowed to be members. They revere the OUN, an ultra nationalist fascist organization from the 20th century.

When the politicans of "Pravy Sektor" give speeches, they use ethnic slurs for Russians and Jews.

Now, I can't entirely slander Svoboda, they have a lot of good anti-corruption stuff, right to bear arms, flat tax, and some other laudable things.

But they are 100% fascists, economically, with union of state and corporate hegemony, and with their ethnic purity principles.

Mind you, I don't much care, it's Ukraine.

But it is one of the reasons why I don't favor one side or the other in the Ukraine-Russia conflict.

Here are a few highlights of their platform with a link to the whole;

7. Set the graph "nationality" in the passport and birth certificate. Determine the nationality by birth certificate or birth certificate of the parents, considering the requests of the citizen.

8. Implement a criminal penalty for any displays of Ukrainophobia.

8. Create own closed nuclear cycle based on domestic raw materials. Construct public infrastructure necessary for the storage and disposal of spent nuclear fuel.

11. Adopt a law on strategic companies and strategic industries. Disallow the privatization of strategic enterprises and return to state ownership ones that were privatized earlier. Ensure state control over natural monopolies.

12. Check the legality of the privatization of all large enterprises (in which the average number of employees exceeds one thousand persons annually or the gross revenue from sales of the product in a year exceeds fifty million hryvnias). Return illegally privatized facilities to state and workers ownership.

21. Allow persons who acquired ownership of agricultural land by lawful means (when shared, or obtained by an inheritance by law) to sell these plots of land exclusively to the state. Disallow any other means of transfer of such sites. Disclaim the ownership of agricultural land acquired by debt receipts.

53. Return companies-monopolists of electricity, gas, heat, water supply and sanitation to communal ownership of territorial communities.

3. Implement a "Reproductive Health of the Nation" program. Disallow abortion except due to medical issues, and/or rape, which were proved in court. Align the implementation of illegal abortion to attempted murder in the criminal law.

13. Organize adequate state control over healthcare workers, sanitary working conditions and public safety in manufacturing.

1. Adopt a new Citizenship Act, under which citizenship will be given only to those persons who were born in Ukraine or are ethnically Ukrainian, who returned from abroad for permanent living and working in Ukraine. Allow people born in Ukraine from foreigners or stateless persons to acquire Ukrainian citizenship upon reaching age of majority only under the conditions of Ukrainian language fluency, knowledge of Ukrainian history and content of the Constitution of Ukraine.

4. Eliminate the illegal practice of dual citizenship. Deprive of Ukrainian citizenship persons who hide that they are citizens of another state.

5. Confiscate property and capital goods acquired in Ukraine from offenders of the Citizenship Act to the state.

6. Facilitate the mass returning to Ukraine of ethnic Ukrainians. Ensure preferential terms for returning home of Ukrainians and their descendants born abroad.

16. Provide place in higher educational institutions' dormitories primarily for Ukrainian, not foreign students.

17. Carry out regular inspections of Foreigners Registration materials coming from schools with lists of students who actually enrolled in them. Ensure timely exit from the territory of Ukraine of foreign students who are expelled from schools.

12. Adopt a state program of patriotic education and hardening the nature of the young generation. Provide active leisure and recreation for children and youth. Promote youth networks and patriotic organizations, sports groups, clubs, summer camps for children and youth.

13. Acknowledge that the struggle, which was taking place until the end of the 1950-ies by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA), was a national liberation struggle of the Ukrainian people. Acknowledge UPA soldiers and OUN underground fighters to be members of the national liberation struggle for independence of Ukraine.

16. Disseminate the truth about the Ukrainian liberation struggle in the twentieth century by means of social advertising, public parliamentary hearings, documentary and feature films, book publishing and more. Implement a course of studying the history of the Ukrainian liberation struggle in the twentieth century in all schools.

18. Revive traditional Ukrainian holidays. Introduce state-level celebration on the second Sunday in May of traditional for the Ukrainians Mother's Day.

19. Announce October 14 (St. Pokrova - patron saint of Ukrainian Cossacks, the day of the creation of UPA) to be a national holiday - the Day of Ukrainian Weaponry. Cancel celebration of 23th February - the so-called "Fatherland Defender Day" (of the Soviet army).

http://en.svoboda.org.ua/about/program/

And this document is very mild compared to the propaganda of the Ukranian government.

So, yes, the Ukranian government is 100% ultra nationalist socialist, anti semitic, ethnically pure nazi ideology. Ukraine today is Germany 1930's.

If this group ever gains any real strength, they are bad, bad news.

svoboda-party-nazi4.jpg


Regarding the above picture of Svoboda members...that symbol on the flag and armbands is the "Wolfsangel"...similar to the swastika, and was a symbol used in various Nazi units in WW2, including the 2nd Panzer, and the Hitler Youth.

Where do you get your information? :huh:

Prior to late July, The Ukrainian government was made up of a coalition of "Fatherland" UDAR, and Svoboda.

Who was in the governing coalition that just collapsed?

Since February revolution, Ukraine has been dominated by a coalition of western-leaning political parties. Here are the three largest:

The "Fatherland" party led by Yulia Tymoshenko holds the most seats in parliament and is the leader of the ruling coalition. A mainstream center-right party, Fatherland favors closer integration with with Europe and opposes closer ties to Russia. Tymoshenko is a former prime minister and has unsuccessfully run for president twice, in 2010 and 2014. She was imprisoned by Yanukovych on charges widely perceived to be politically motivated and was released only when he fled the country.

The Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform (UDAR) is a centrist party led by former boxer Vitali Klitschko. UDAR has a somewhat vague political platform that emphasizes good governance and opposition to corruption. Klitschko was originally a presidential candidate in 2014, but he pulled out ahead of the vote and endorsed Petro Poroshenko, who won the election.

Svoboda is a Ukrainian nationalist party that was originally called the Social-National Party of Ukraine. Some people think this was a deliberate reference to the National Socialism of Adolf Hitler. Strongly anti-communist, the party originally limited its membership to ethnic Ukrainians. Svoboda has moderated its image over the last decade, but its politics remain divisive. For example, Human Rights Watch reports that as recently as 2012, a party statement referred to a gay rights protest as a "Sabbath of 50 perverts."

The ruling coalition collapsed because UDAR and Svoboda withdrew their support from the government. Fatherland didn't have enough votes to govern by itself.

Ukraine's polarization makes it particularly difficult for Ukrainian leaders to form a stable coalition. The western-leaning factions already had a relatively narrow majority in parliament, so any disagreements among them was likely to bring down the government, since they were loath to bring Russian-leaning parties into the government. Current polls suggest that fresh elections may increase the majority of the western-leaning parties, which could give their leaders more room to maneuver.

Hell, even RT said this so it must be true.

Ukraine’s ruling coalition has dissolved itself to trigger an early parliamentary election after the government resigned. The war-torn and impoverished country is to undergo a massive political reboot, which is expected to strengthen the president.

The nationalist Svoboda (Freedom) party, and the Udar (Strike) party of former boxing champion Vitaly Klitschko, had a majority in parliament, acquiring it in the wake of the February armed coup, which ousted President Viktor Yanukovich from Ukraine.

On Thursday, they announced that they were leaving the ruling coalition. Ukrainian law says that unless MPs manage to form a new majority of at least 226 representatives within a month, an early election would be called for.
 

O_P_T

Why Be Normal
Joined
Aug 14, 2004
Messages
21,803
Reaction score
2,602
Points
113
Age
62
Location
Windsor, CT
I noticed that too, which is why I said I still need more actual facts. However, I thought those two links provided a half-decent summary of the 'Ukraine did it' side of the argument.

Regarding the comment that US intelligence didn't provide any evidence about who was involved could be explained that it came from Instagram
 

mooseontheloose

See, moose love the Pats too!
Joined
Jan 1, 2007
Messages
15,552
Reaction score
1,122
Points
113
Location
Great White North
Regarding the comment that US intelligence didn't provide any evidence about who was involved could be explained that it came from Instagram

Then why hasn't the US and Western governments used that to support their arguments? It was like the event happened, the West blamed Russia and then everything went silent. The MSM here all but stopped reporting once the actual investigation was under way.

I'm not accusing our governments of anything, but that is what the article seems to take issue with. If you're going to accuse a major power of this type of action, why wouldn't you follow through with evidence to back up your case? Wouldn't doing so help bring greater sanctions against Russia?
 
OP
Baron Samedi

Baron Samedi

Russian Bot 762X54R
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
29,394
Reaction score
2,927
Points
113
Age
52
Location
Framingham
Where do you get your information? :huh:

Prior to late July[/URL], The Ukrainian government was made up of a coalition of "Fatherland" UDAR, and Svoboda.

And what's the name of that coalition?

Pravy Sektor. "Right Sector" loosely translated.

Thank you.

These guys.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/soME1TNrDDs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Svoboda: The rise of Ukraine's ultra-nationalists
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20824693

The Right Sector knows that courting the EU and the west will win them support to break away from Russia, without that support they can't.

EU and the west want Ukraine to become economically and strategically aligned with the west so the west overlooks the fact that the government is neo-nazi fascist, the same way they overlooked the Baath Party being socialists during the Iran-Iraq war.

I am not saying every person in the Right Sector is a goose stepping nazi, but the leadership of the parties that make up the right sector are strongly fascist. They have "moved to the center" to coax western support against the Russian eastern Ukraine....but they still sport party tee shirts saying "Beat the kikes".
 

O_P_T

Why Be Normal
Joined
Aug 14, 2004
Messages
21,803
Reaction score
2,602
Points
113
Age
62
Location
Windsor, CT
Then why hasn't the US and Western governments used that to support their arguments? It was like the event happened, the West blamed Russia and then everything went silent. The MSM here all but stopped reporting once the actual investigation was under way.

I'm not accusing our governments of anything, but that is what the article seems to take issue with. If you're going to accuse a major power of this type of action, why wouldn't you follow through with evidence to back up your case? Wouldn't doing so help bring greater sanctions against Russia?

This article gives as good a sumamry as any about the position of the US and the West about this situation.

They claim that Russia is providing weapons to the rebels.

Additional sanctions were applied by the US and the EU at the end of July due to their claims about MH17.

MH17 was about 2 weeks ago and since that event there have been a few other things going on in the world: Gaza, ISIS in Iraq, etc. that have not only occupied the MSM, but the Administration.

So I'm not sure just what you expect should have been done since the end of July on this topic.
 
Top