Of the Patriots 3x Super Bowl Champions, who makes it into the HOF?

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EDIT: Train of thought got away from me a bit. Sorry about that.

Willie Mac, Rodney, Wilfork should go. Probably Seymour. Wilfork could be kept out by his lack of sack numbers, but that's just ignorance.

No one else. And I have to say, this discussion - and the lack of blue chip HOFers across this dynasty with all the championships and constant high levels of performance - is an incredibly strong argument for BB as GOAT HC. And honestly? In the room for the discussion as GOAT GM as well. He's been playing a different game than GMs across the league for decades now - not getting seduced by superstardom, but building depth to plan for the attrition that defines each NFL season. He limited the weak spots other coaches could exploit, and worked to ensure that he has whatever tool he needs to exploit the weak spots of other teams. This strategy got increasingly powerful as the season went along, and tended to peak in the playoffs, when teams weak spots have been exposed by injuries and they have sunk into their "personalities," - a reliance on their own strengths and what has been working for them to get them there. Belichick forced them to play left handed and try to win with their weaknesses. With very rare exceptions, he saved money that most teams spend on their top-tier players to pull together a deep core of second-tier players and third-tier players who were either extremely flexible or could do one or two things at a first-tier level. And most importantly, players who just loved to get dirty, put in the work, and play football.

And no, I don't think he's lost his fastball. If anything he may be a half-notch below his peak performance as a coach - still at least a full notch above the league as a whole - but I don't see that from the GM perspective. Brady's contract (and Brown's) was a time bomb, and he had to absorb that blow last year and clean out some dead weight. He did it, and I think this team is 1) the first step in a 2-3 year rebuilding plan; 2) ahead of schedule; and 3) better than they are being given credit for. The places this team is weak can be covered by their strengths. Defense, a flexible running game, the ability to run to set up the pass and pass out of run formations, a precision/timing passing game, a wide variety of receiving options to take advantage of matchups, smart play that avoids turnovers and moves the sticks, and the ability to take the occasional shot deep and make it hurt...this can cover for dynamic pass-catchers outside the numbers.

So Miami has outside cornerbacks that will take our outside WRs out of the game. Okay. Do they have LBs and safeties that will cover the TEs and RBs? Do they have enough that are good enough in coverage? Do they have enough pass rush to force Mac to make the wrong read, and the playmakers in the middle of the field to take advantage of it? If they have great coverage linebackers and safeties, which kinds do they have? The kind that can really limit Jonnu Smith is not the same kind that limits James White. And JJ Taylor is not likely taken out of the game by the same "backfield coverage specialist" that would cause problems for Stevenson.

There are very few teams that will check all the boxes they need to check to really shut down this offence. That's what this team is built for. It's why Belichick rarely broke open the checkbook to pay for high-end targets for Brady. He paid for Brady because Brady's favorite receiver was the one who was open, and he built the team to take advantage of the matchups his team-building earned for him.

I think we all feel pretty confident that this defense will be strong, and could be special with Gilmore back on the field. I think that this offense will have it's problems, but in the end won't be the crippling problem that so many fear. The offense will score. Not at will, but enough. And they will control the ball, not give opposing offenses extra chances, and ensure the defense has time to rest and isn't asked to do too much.

The 2021 Patriots will be fine. The Dolphins on the other hand...I think they're overhyped right now. A team that is that young and unproven on the OL typically can't be counted on to take advantage of all the weapons they have at their disposal...and I don't think Tua can make up for the difference. Everyone talked about Mac getting the benefit of playing with a team of players that could dominate their 1-on-1 opponents, but Tua had the same thing, and has done much less to prove that the can rise above it. The corners are great, but without the ability to stop the run and shut down the underneath passing game, you might not notice much of a benefit. Jaelan Phillips had better be the real deal, because without him all their pass rushers are undersized and susceptible to being a focus of the run game.

That said, the Patriots might very well lose this game, and they could even lose ugly. It could very well be that this team takes awhile to come together. But I expect the team will get stronger as the year goes along. Which is good, because they're going to need to be at their best for the two Bills games at the end of the year.
 
Flagg the Wanderer said:
EDIT: Train of thought got away from me a bit. Sorry about that.

Willie Mac, Rodney, Wilfork should go. Probably Seymour. Wilfork could be kept out by his lack of sack numbers, but that's just ignorance.

No one else. And I have to say, this discussion - and the lack of blue chip HOFers across this dynasty with all the championships and constant high levels of performance - is an incredibly strong argument for BB as GOAT HC. And honestly? In the room for the discussion as GOAT GM as well. He's been playing a different game than GMs across the league for decades now - not getting seduced by superstardom, but building depth to plan for the attrition that defines each NFL season. He limited the weak spots other coaches could exploit, and worked to ensure that he has whatever tool he needs to exploit the weak spots of other teams. This strategy got increasingly powerful as the season went along, and tended to peak in the playoffs, when teams weak spots have been exposed by injuries and they have sunk into their "personalities," - a reliance on their own strengths and what has been working for them to get them there. Belichick forced them to play left handed and try to win with their weaknesses. With very rare exceptions, he saved money that most teams spend on their top-tier players to pull together a deep core of second-tier players and third-tier players who were either extremely flexible or could do one or two things at a first-tier level. And most importantly, players who just loved to get dirty, put in the work, and play football.

And no, I don't think he's lost his fastball. If anything he may be a half-notch below his peak performance as a coach - still at least a full notch above the league as a whole - but I don't see that from the GM perspective. Brady's contract (and Brown's) was a time bomb, and he had to absorb that blow last year and clean out some dead weight. He did it, and I think this team is 1) the first step in a 2-3 year rebuilding plan; 2) ahead of schedule; and 3) better than they are being given credit for. The places this team is weak can be covered by their strengths. Defense, a flexible running game, the ability to run to set up the pass and pass out of run formations, a precision/timing passing game, a wide variety of receiving options to take advantage of matchups, smart play that avoids turnovers and moves the sticks, and the ability to take the occasional shot deep and make it hurt...this can cover for dynamic pass-catchers outside the numbers.

So Miami has outside cornerbacks that will take our outside WRs out of the game. Okay. Do they have LBs and safeties that will cover the TEs and RBs? Do they have enough that are good enough in coverage? Do they have enough pass rush to force Mac to make the wrong read, and the playmakers in the middle of the field to take advantage of it? If they have great coverage linebackers and safeties, which kinds do they have? The kind that can really limit Jonnu Smith is not the same kind that limits James White. And JJ Taylor is not likely taken out of the game by the same "backfield coverage specialist" that would cause problems for Stevenson.

There are very few teams that will check all the boxes they need to check to really shut down this offence. That's what this team is built for. It's why Belichick rarely broke open the checkbook to pay for high-end targets for Brady. He paid for Brady because Brady's favorite receiver was the one who was open, and he built the team to take advantage of the matchups his team-building earned for him.

I think we all feel pretty confident that this defense will be strong, and could be special with Gilmore back on the field. I think that this offense will have it's problems, but in the end won't be the crippling problem that so many fear. The offense will score. Not at will, but enough. And they will control the ball, not give opposing offenses extra chances, and ensure the defense has time to rest and isn't asked to do too much.

The 2021 Patriots will be fine. The Dolphins on the other hand...I think they're overhyped right now. A team that is that young and unproven on the OL typically can't be counted on to take advantage of all the weapons they have at their disposal...and I don't think Tua can make up for the difference. Everyone talked about Mac getting the benefit of playing with a team of players that could dominate their 1-on-1 opponents, but Tua had the same thing, and has done much less to prove that the can rise above it. The corners are great, but without the ability to stop the run and shut down the underneath passing game, you might not notice much of a benefit. Jaelan Phillips had better be the real deal, because without him all their pass rushers are undersized and susceptible to being a focus of the run game.

That said, the Patriots might very well lose this game, and they could even lose ugly. It could very well be that this team takes awhile to come together. But I expect the team will get stronger as the year goes along. Which is good, because they're going to need to be at their best for the two Bills games at the end of the year.
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Excellent post. Thanks
 
TommyD420 said:
There are two players in the history of the NFL with 30 sacks and 30 interceptions.
One is in the Hall of Fame, and killed two guys.
The other is Rodney Harrison.
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Lewis the scumbag. Even though there are times I don't like him, I always admired Shannon Sharpe for interviewing Lewis on CBS before SB XLVII and told him how difficult it was for the families of the dead men to see Lewis idolized and what did he have to say to those families who believe he knows a lot more about what happened then he's admitted.

Lewis then responded with some BS about God never making a mistake. What a nasty prick he is.
 
TommyD420 said:
There are two players in the history of the NFL with 30 sacks and 30 interceptions.
One is in the Hall of Fame, and killed two guys.
The other is Rodney Harrison.
Click to expand...
I think Rodney was better than Polamalu but that's me I guess. I'm not even sure I would take Polamalu over Dennis Smith.
 
OSUBuckeye said:
I think Rodney was better than Polamalu but that's me I guess. I'm not even sure I would take Polamalu over Dennis Smith.
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polamalu was flashy, that's all. meaning he made splash plays. kinda reminds me of seau in a way. good player, willing to make risky plays using instincts. giveth and taketh away.not that he wasn't good, but he wasn't THAT good.
i like brian dawkins but i def. think rodney should have made it in over him as well. as with most things,media relations and flash means too much.
 
OSUBuckeye said:
I think Rodney was better than Polamalu but that's me I guess. I'm not even sure I would take Polamalu over Dennis Smith.
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There's no contest
Troy Polamalu got the ESPN push more than maybe any other athlete in history. His jersey should read 'Brady' on the back, because 12 owned him.

Ed Reed, he was not.
 
Rodney > Polamalu, no question.
Rodney > Dawkins? Ehhhh.... Don't know about that. Close one.
 
HSanders said:
polamalu was flashy, that's all. meaning he made splash plays. kinda reminds me of seau in a way. good player, willing to make risky plays using instincts. giveth and taketh away.not that he wasn't good, but he wasn't THAT good.
i like brian dawkins but i def. think rodney should have made it in over him as well. as with most things,media relations and flash means too much.
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Brady played Polamalu like a master fisherman. The bomb to Branch in the AFC championship game was an all time favorite football moment (I was lucky enough to see it live) I was out of my seat as soon as the ball was thrown, it was an obvious TD at that moment. Polamalu bit on the look off like a river trout.
 
HSanders said:
dev's a "hall of very good" player. rodney harrison not being in is a travishamockery. he's the best safety bb's had. the secondary fell to shit without him even though they had top level 1st round players like law, and good players like wilson, a$$ante,poole. he was the absolute brains, heart, and fight of that group.
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I 100% agree. Rodney was my avatar for years. I will never forget how overcome he was after the SB win, tears streaming down his face, brandishing that cast. He was a heart-and-soul player and left absolutely everything on the field. But his unmerited reputation as a "dirty player" will likely keep him out of the Hall. I remember a clip of BB saying, "This is why we got you, so go out and prove it," to him before kickoff. Gauntlet thrown - and picked up.
 
IMO the HofF is just a popularity contest, strongly promoted by the media with sportswriters voting in their personal pets. So many of the players suggested here were solid gold for the Patriots, but in large part due to the team effort and not necessarily by their personal abilities, and would not be under consideration on other teams. Polamalu was doing Head and Shoulders commercials. Rodney is bald. Nuff said.

Every year deserving players are passed over while some of lesser talent are voted in. It's all PR and who you know and who gets press and who is overlooked during their playing years. MO
 
This refers to players in the earlier SB wins, but no one seems to remember outstanding special teamer Larry Izzo. The guy won rings in 01,03 and 04 and although the NFL doesn't keep stats on special teams action, it is believed that Izzo's 298 career stops on special teams is the record.
 
oldbagfan said:
This refers to players in the earlier SB wins, but no one seems to remember outstanding special teamer Larry Izzo. The guy won rings in 01,03 and 04 and although the NFL doesn't keep stats on special teams action, it is believed that Izzo's 298 career stops on special teams is the record.
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Plus, he shat in a bucket on the sideline. That alone means he should get in imho.
 
Wilfork (best NT I've ever seen), Slater (greatest gunner ever), Edelman, Gronk, Scarnecchia (greatest OL coach in NFL history)

I assume Seymour finally gets in, even though he's not part of the 2nd dynasty.
 
TyLawsPick6 said:
Wilfork (best NT I've ever seen), Slater (greatest gunner ever), Edelman, Gronk, Scarnecchia (greatest OL coach in NFL history)

I assume Seymour finally gets in, even though he's not part of the 2nd dynasty.
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I'm still pissed at Seymour for being such a prima donna. He thought he was too good for the heavy duty body trauma on the goal line. I was glad when he was traded to the Raiders and did squat. I think attitude has to count for something to get into the HofF. Gotta have that iron man football mindset where players are basically willing to give up life and limb to make the play. Sissies don't qualify. This means you Ocho Stinko.

And of course Scarnecchia should be a lock. Which means he'll probably be overlooked. As said before, I don't think much of the impartiality of those casting votes.
 
oldbagfan said:
I'm still pissed at Seymour for being such a prima donna. He thought he was too good for the heavy duty body trauma on the goal line. I was glad when he was traded to the Raiders and did squat. I think attitude has to count for something to get into the HofF. Gotta have that iron man football mindset where players are basically willing to give up life and limb to make the play. Sissies don't qualify. This means you Ocho Stinko.

And of course Scarnecchia should be a lock. Which means he'll probably be overlooked. As said before, I don't think much of the impartiality of those casting votes.
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You're still holding a grudge on Seymour? haha

I was annoyed at the time he wanted a max deal, his second, while entering his latter years past 30, but that was also his right. I knew BB couldn't pay both Vince and him. Yeah, the Raiders were never going anywhere at that time. Tommy Kelly actually was outperforming him in 2012 and Seymour was no longer needing a double team. But, I am honestly well past that stuff and I would imagine he is, too.

He's still the prototypical 3-4 DE, though.

Here is my all time 3-4 lineup, across the front:

LT, Seymour, Vince, Reggie White, Charles Haley
 
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