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Mazz22

Mazz22

A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies.
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I thought this was worthy of its own thread as many of us over the years used to visit the Mane because the Bronco posters there were so off the wall crazy. It was a pretty rowdy place back when they signed Manning and Brady and Manning were facing off every year and in the playoffs. The creator (Taco John) has closed the site apparently due to the political stuff being too tough to moderate. His farewell is below. This is unfortunate as many of the posters there just posted about the Broncos and never visited the political side but he just could not manage it anymore. Probably a good reminder to us to try to keep the political side sane so UT does not burn out and shut us down.


The Orange Mane has suspended operations.

Hey all -

What a ride this has been. I always wondered, back in the early days whether this would make it to 2021, twenty years after I started this. This year was always the year that was in my head given that it launched in 2001.

It started as a freaking goofy blog, where I posted my wry insights and silly pictures and jokes. It was completely juvenile. Here, take a look. I'm proudly embarrassed when I look at it now.

In April of that year, I launched a message board off of it, and many friends from the DPO and RMN joined the site. I owe a big Thank You to Garcia Bronco for his dedication in that time of helping round people up for it. Back then, I felt like the big newspapers and even team site had no idea what they were doing. Funny, to this day, I still think they don't, but that's neither here nor there. I knew, I just knew, that I could run an online community better than "the big boys," and so I went for it and launched it on draft weekend. It was an immediate success. We had tons more traffic than ANY other Broncos forum on Draft day. It looked very different back then. Again, take a look. If you click through, you can see the threads and the things we were talking about at the time. I get a tear in my eye seeing some of those old names and recognizing many of them here today. If you look, you'll see Bluflame, another person who I need to mention as critical to the success of this site. I don't remember exactly when she became a moderator, I just remember that I could always, always, ALWAYS count on her. Her dedication to this community is unmatched, even by me. I love you Darla, I truly do.

Along the way, I became friends with Meck77 (Steve Fesch) who had just been putting together plans for Orange Force One - the ultimate party bus for Broncos tailgating. It was from that the moniker "the online tailgate party that never ends" was born. You can see Steve's OrangeForce One logo on this iteration of the website. Meck77 brought a new level of fun to the site because it gave people a lightning rod to meet, and people started going to games for that purpose. That was the golden era of the Orange Mane. It brought a certain "realness" to what was going on here. It made me feel incredible to meet people, shake their hands, and have a beer with them. It was a strange thing because it wasn't like getting together with strangers. It was like being there with old friends.

This is where I met Kaylore, and he's another person who must be mentioned. He brought things to a whole new level with his camp reports. His youthful energy mixed with his knowledge of fundamentals and attention to detail was a hit here. People couldn't get enough of it. There were others who pitched in, but Kaylore was a standout, and even people entrenched on other forums would come here to soak it all in. His contribution to this site was important and gave the die-hards something to really sink their teeth into.

There are so many people I should thank and mention. Wabbit. Montrose. SoCalBronco. Old Dude. TheRev. DomCasual. JCMElway. Archer81. There are more. So many more. So many great people.

I'm not going to go any further into why I feel I can no longer shoulder the burden of carrying this as just "a guy with a website" anymore. I've already done that in a previous thread. I've said all that needs to be said. What I will say is that things have been piling up around us, and I've reached my breaking point. I feel exposed in the current world, and I'm too old with too much responsibility for the souls under my own roof to be put at risk by the souls on the forum I'm trying to host. This site isn't set up for that kind of liability, and I don't have the heart to ban people over their disagreements about what constitutes truth in a world of lies. As I said before, I am taking myself out of the line of fire.

With that, I leave you all with the best wishes that I can offer as we continue down in a world that looks very different from the world that existed when I started this site. May God bless you all... and Go Broncos!

With love,
TJ
 
Thank you for posting this Mazz. I've been reading about what happened and thinking on this since you did, and have a lot of thoughts to share. I will gather those thoughts and try to make a post tomorrow.

It is a very real issue.
 
Undertaker #59* said:
Thank you for posting this Mazz. I've been reading about what happened and thinking on this since you did, and have a lot of thoughts to share. I will gather those thoughts and try to make a post tomorrow.

It is a very real issue.
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Thanks UT. I look forward to your thoughts.
 
Undertaker #59* said:
Thank you for posting this Mazz. I've been reading about what happened and thinking on this since you did, and have a lot of thoughts to share. I will gather those thoughts and try to make a post tomorrow.

It is a very real issue.
Click to expand...

I'm looking forward to your thoughts as well. You have mentioned liability that may fall on you before. I gotta be honest, I don't understand how as this is just a platform like a FB. Are they liable for the content others create? I don't know. I'm sure you have valid reasons for your thoughts so I would love to understand where you are coming from in more detail.
 
Thanks John. Its not black and white, but I will share some of my thoughts here.

This will be a long post and much of it will have to do with our Political Forum, even though it is being posted in our main forum, it may be good for everyone to see. I pre-apologize for the length, but hopefully it leads to greater understanding. Some things I post here, I have posted previously in the PF.

The first thing I'd like to say is most of these sports forums that have been around a long time are run by just regular joe-schmoes. Not corporations. We have full time jobs and families and lives, but have a passion for this that we make time for. Most do not make money, though when they reach a certain size they may. Patsfans might, looking at their activity and the sheer number of Ads. But with increased activity also comes increased costs. We've never had an adversarial relationship with Patsfans and Ian and I have exchanged messages with each other. I am a member there and he is a member here. Anyway, I am getting distracted. But I just wanted to emphasize up front that these fan run boards don't exist to make a profit, and are just run by regular people who usually have normal jobs.

Back in the early 2000s, when we first split off a political forum, I was not in favor of it. This is board built around talking about the Patriots and anything else you might talk about while tailgating at an actual game. Most of the time, there is a general understanding that politics is not a good thing to talk about in a large tailgate atmosphere. It's about having a good time, and most people know that politics can turn ugly quickly. But there was a desire for it here, and it could also serve as a forum where when those topics came up, there was a place to move them to where the general Football fan didn't have to see them if they didn't want to. There were other moderators that took on the responsibility of moderating that forum. Most of the early years were fine though. I occasionally popped in there, but spent most of my time with Administration of the board.

There is a lot more history to discuss here that leads to where we are now, and I wouldn't mind expounding, but after touching on the moderators we've had through the years, I'm going to fast forward to get back to the topic.

We've had a group of great moderators through the years - The original ones were FallingAlice, Pookie, NoRespect, and Hawg. Actions by NoRespect led to him being removed and my addition. The whole thing became way too personal and FallingAlice stepped back from the board not long after. We added Bideau and Annihilus. And later, Dchester and Mikie. Again, a lot of history here that I need to cut short, but let me just sum it up by saying all the moderators got along and it was rare that there was any contention among us. There were few decisions that were made unilaterally, and most agreed when an action was taken. For the most part, and we have all said this numerous times, we were just members with extra buttons. But it takes a toll on you. It's not easy. It sometimes seems like a second job that you don't get paid for. You have to be restrained and still get bombarded with irrational hate from people. It is not an easy thing to deal with day after day and year after year, and it has taken its toll on our moderators who have mostly stepped away because they were burnt out on it, or their life circumstances changed, and they just couldn't spend the time anymore. There was always understanding with the rest of the moderators, very little drama. It is not technically difficult to set up a forum if you have a little bit of technical chops. But it can be hard to be disliked because you make decisions for the good of the board as a whole.

Over the past few years, I got extremely frustrated by the lack of support from Chiefsplanet. I was grateful for their free hosting, don't get me wrong, and the ability to run the site as we saw fit. But as the problems mounted, the malware infecting the site chased a lot of people away, and I couldn't do anything more about it. Of course, all fan sites like this have experienced some pretty big attrition to the major social sites like Facebook, Twitter, and Reddit. But I was watching Patriotsplanet die and it broke my heart. And I knew that eventually, it was going to crash and be gone forever, despite my pleas to Chiefsplanet. It was then I started BSU, not because I wanted to leave PP, but I wanted to have something in place in case that failure came.

(continued)
 
So last summer, moderation was pretty much down to dchester and Mikie. Board activity was a shadow of what it once was. Dchester posted a thread in the staff forum about how its time to cut ties with Chiefsplanet. I jumped at the consensus. It was the only real solution. Dchester is retired and living his best life, but generously offered finances to get it done. Mikie had a slew of life changes just as this was starting. The finances weren't needed, I already had this hosting (though I did have to upgrade it). The biggest challenge was technical. Getting all of our history and preserving and moving it. Once I figured out that part, it was a real possibility. We posted the poll to what was left of the membership and the decision was made and here we are.

But now, well...I have a political forum that I didn't want 15 years ago, and it is my responsibility. So even before anyone knew a move was possible and in the works, I became active in there. To get a feel for this sub-community, and I knew how much many enjoyed it. I decided to keep it, because at the core, my only goal here has been to have a forum that every member could enjoy. I don't have any other agenda. My next comments have to do with the PF only, and not the Circus.

My price for keeping the PF is civility. And the reasons why that is my price partially lead back to the OrangeMane.

The first reason though is community. In this version of the internet we have now, all fan boards have suffered attrition to the major social sites. It is easy to create a Facebook group and connect people. Reddit is enormous and active. The only thing we can offer is a specialized interface and a sense of community that those larger sites don't have. Developing that board culture to have that community doesn't work well with hateful politically fueled comments between members.

But the second is because of our current political climate. People get so passionate about their side of politics that reason and rationality are overcome by nastiness and become obsessed with 'winning' at all costs. These people think they are acting rationally, because their side is 'right'. Things escalate out of control and put the site itself at risk.

Patsfans no longer has a political forum. It reaches a point where the effort and risk of keeping it is not worth it. Chiefsplanet and Orangemane have/had political forums that are wild west free-for-alls. As some know, I thought about doing that as well as a separate forum. Now, there is a lot of different things behind what happened at the Mane, and a lot of pointed fingers, and a lot of hate at TacoJohn. A lot of his personal details are available online. For a regular working guy with a family, when you face all of this online hate, that can be a pretty scary thing. Anyway, there are circumstances at the Mane that don't apply here, but at the core the following happened:

The site owner was threatened with court action by a user over Covid vaccine posts. In a largely unmoderated forum, one can imagine how far these posts went.

Now, you may think there may not be a lot of risk of losing any kind of court action over what people post online. And that may be the case currently with section 230 of the Telecommunications Act, but think about it if it was you. Someone filled with hate has targeted you, and now you have to take time off of work, perhaps spend thousands in lawyer fees, to defend something you run as a hobby and likely don't make any money from. Is all of that hassle worth it? These people are spending their own money to have these communities, and now they have to go to court for it? That is a huge impact to your life with no reward.

So again, my price is civility in the PF. It is good for the culture of the overall board, and there is less risk of people becoming unhinged by being personally attacked.

90% of the current PF posters get it and are good with it. There are occasional dustups, but that is expected. What concerns me more are the people who simply don't seem capable of having a conversation with someone with a differing viewpoint without being insulting and/or condescending. People have become upset with me for enforcing civility, or blame me for uneven moderation. I am only human. Just a guy trying to rebuild a board. I am losing patience with those who offend over and over. They dislike me for enforcing it. They accuse me of playing favorites. They call me names. They think I have a Napoleon complex. But its not personal for me. I don't single anyone out, except when they show repeatedly an inability to post with civility and not make it personal. I am sorry if you have been suspended and feel that it is unfair. I don't want to suspend people from posting. But instead of blaming me, check your posts and check the way you make them, and look at them with some honesty. If you still feel that you did nothing wrong, then perhaps you need a different political community that is not on a football board. I've said it before, I don't care what your beliefs are. I really don't. People don't believe me, but its true. I like an active thriving community with differing viewpoints. That's all. No other agenda. If you don't make personal comments about another member, and don't insult anyone, you can post anything you want and never have to worry about being 'censored.' It is when you are personal about the poster that you disagree with that posts get deleted, for the reasons stated above.

I've added Patswin as a moderator for the PF. I'd like to add another one with differing political viewpoints for some balance. Someone that is rational and not quick to get emotional and act on emotions. But, the overriding goal in there is to have a thriving CIVIL political community. So moderators will be enforcing that, and not right or left crap. When someone keeps making it personal, they not only are putting themselves at risk of suspension, but they are putting the whole forum at risk. And for the good of all, I can not allow that. I don't act out of dislike. If you haven't been banned, I think you can be an asset to the community. I only ban when it is made clear that the poster will not be contributing to the community in a positive way. I am not perfect. I have made mistakes along the way. But it is definitely draining to deal with, and I appreciate Mazz's comment above. In the end, it's about how you choose to behave, not how I moderate. The less I have to worry about in the PF, the more I can do for the site overall with my limited free time.

It saddens me to see a long time community go down. I don't want it to happen with us, and everything I do is in the interest of not only keeping us online, but building membership and having a unique and inclusive community that we can all enjoy. I am always open to feedback publicly or privately, and may soon post a tool you can use to give anonymous feedback (despite the risk of receiving more personal abuse myself).

I will say overall, despite this wall of text, I am not a big fan of drama. I have no plans to change anything in regards to the PF from what it is now except to continue to enforce the civility rule, add another moderator, and hope to see more people take part in reasoned discussion over the very serious issues we all face in the world today. But don't ever forget, this is primarily a Patriots community, meant for entertainment, news, and fun. Treat your fellow members with respect in the PF.

Thank you for your time. A board is what its members make it, and you guys are the best.
 
Thanks for all you have done, UT. I can't offer any perspective for the political forum since I've probably spent less than 10 min. there in total. Sorry.
 
It's sad that things can become so serious when this is supposed to be an enjoyable past time. I really don't like talking politics, because in my experience 9 times out of 10, it turns hostile. With that said, thank you for keeping our community active and going, and hope it lasts a while more. It is truly appreciated.
 
Thank you for the post and all you do, UT. I spend very little time in the P&R forum and prefer to post cute pictures in the Circle. It's healthier for me not to get all worked up over politics :)
 
That was eye opening UT. I had no idea what went into the creation and management of a football forum like this one. I figured it was cumbersome but had no idea the work and amount of time you and others have dedicated so thank you. Really, thank you. I feel terribly that Taco John was being sued but some how that does not surprise with how heated the world has become. I know several of the members of the Mane are extremely sad the forum disbanded because they only came there to talk football like so many here.

I am glad to know that the PF is going somewhat smoothly here. Although I don't post there much at all, hopefully your insights can help all of us keep things on track and civil.

I think I speak for all of us when I say to please let us know if things are becoming too much for you so we can figure out how to help. None of us wants to see this place disappear and would rather help where we can if possible to off-load the burden.

Thanks for taking the time to share your heart with us. It meant a lot to me.
 
chevss454 said:
Thanks for all you have done, UT. I can't offer any perspective for the political forum since I've probably spent less than 10 min. there in total. Sorry.
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Sorry I missed you. :coffee:

Cheers, :toast:
 
Man, UT. Those were tremendously well-reasoned and written thoughts. Thank you very much for breaking it down. Immensely helpful to me.

I understand and agree with virtually everything you said.

I would like to begin by saying this is my home, my corner of the internet, and has been since 2008 and I value everything about it. I have made the dearest of friends here and they will be friends for the rest of my life and a couple of the greatest enemies I have ever had and I enjoy all of it. But that's just who I am.

The P&R forum is not a hobby for me in the least. I have said before the major values I gain here are gaining knowledge, getting to learn and understand the arguments of my opposition, no matter the side, and it allows me to sharpen and refine my tactics for my life's passion, my work as a philosophical freelance writer, and activist. I do of course love spirited debate, that much is is obvious. :rofl: I find this site invaluable in addition to the numerous other worlds I inhabit. :) But this is my home. I love it here and always have. Thank you for your major part in it.

With rare exceptions, I find most people quite enjoyable even if we bicker and fight. In private I have more in common with those in contention with me than differences and we even ask each other for life advice and things like that.

I also find that most are very respectful of each other and the fights and attitudes don't flow over into the Circus and that is incredible. It is so amazing to me that so many can compartmentalize and keep things in the right place in their minds and hearts. It's almost as if the underlying premise with most here is we're all of the human race, we have differences, some very serious and with major consequences but that as man we are more fundamentally similar than different.

I have, of course, gotten beyond myself at times and when I realize it I correct it. I enter all relationships with my fellow man with the rational and objective perspective of innocent until proven guilty. For example, I treat everyone with kindness and the benefit of the doubt until they give me a reason not to. I try to understand the nature of a person and treat them accordingly. To my thinking that is what Justice demands. And often in private, I make the attempt to convince others to see relationships the same way. People who are respectful who I find honestly mistaken I attempt to build bridges with, hell I disagree with just about everyone here on something but the discussions are not hateful or disrespectful. There are those in the world that know what they are doing for the power and the destruction they are lusting for. I do not suffer them. Again that is justice.

Bottom line, I love this site and this sub-forum, and thank you for all you have done to rebuild it and restore it to some of its glory. I understand that you see it differently but I think the P&R forum is pretty essential to creating the level of community we have here. Every subject on this board is something we would discuss with friends or family in our homes or whatnot so I think having places to discuss them is wonderful.

I have offered before any level of help I can provide to support this wonderful concept of a site, financial, design, and obviously promotion. And I will always continue to extend that offer for whatever is needed.

I am very sorry that you are treated like crap by some and it's not right, just, or fair. You are providing a great service. If the P&R forum gets to be too much on you, maybe we could come up with something to limit that any potential liability to you personally. I dunno, I could host it somehow and have others with independent authority moderate with some kind of link or integration or something. I don't know, just spitballing here. :)

Just know this, as far as liability I have made my peace with that fact I may be dragged in front of the firing line someday by the powers that be and it would be an easy value if I have left my mark on this world in the cause of liberty, I treat that principle like my most treasured loved one and wish her to live and flourish even at the cost of myself so I don't mind taking on the liability with little editorial control or whatever it would take to keep what I view as an essential part of the community.

In my write-up to attract former and new members, which I'll share at the end, I discussed the P&R and have had a number of people hit me up in private from varied worldviews who are intrigued and are interested in joining here. As I have said, diversity of membership only makes this more amazing and I'm trying to foster that whether with sports fans no matter their team, intellectuals and whoever else is interested.

I have used the word, "I" a great deal in this post but I have used it to exemplify a number of things and principles. Prime example of the diversity that I would love to see here I recounted in the Religious Con Artist thread. Everyone and I mean everyone I run into brings something unique to me my world even those I fundamentally disagree with. This is a beautiful thing, and I wish to foster that here.

You have laid the groundwork for an epic rebuild that can be better than ever and I sincerely thank you for that.

Anything I can do I absolutely will, just ask.

Hope all is well in your world, man.

My member recruitment statement that I posted all over the place with a few changes based on where I posted it the other day. :)

"Return of the King

Many of us here are met on Patriots Planet many years ago.aq

Well, that message board had a great decline in activity from its heyday with thousands of very active members discussing all manner of subjects. Everything is open for discussion on that board.

It had a massive decline as the software developed massive infections.

Our great leader Undertaker (AKA the Evil Clown) has rebuilt and improved from the ground up this fantastic fansite that not only welcomes but openly invites fans of every team and perspective.

And for those interested in discussing politics, religion, or anything else we have a very active sub-forum for just that. It is full of spirited debate, really good information, mostly quality folks of all different persuasions and as you can imagine can get downright contentious. As my friends here know I spend a good deal of my time in the Politics and Religion section gaining a better understanding of the opposition, refining the arguments that I take into my work as a writer and activist, and love the epic battles we have in there.

Bottom line is there is something for everyone there and relationships can be built can that last a lifetime with the wonderful folks that participate. I love the friends that I have chosen to have in my world that I met there.

It is a site providing a great deal of value and it's ramping back up again and it would be wonderful if we get as much of the band back together and as many new members as have the desire to contribute to and exchange ideas and good-natured ribbing with ta most diverse crowd of excellent, mostly well informed and very knowledgeable sports fans. Some even with inside knowledge and insight into the in the goings-on at Patriot Place.

It's a fantastic environment for the mostly respectful exchange of ideas and info on everything under the sun with a focus on football.

I'm inviting all friends of the Planet to come back home and extending an open invitation to everyone. The more folks with diverse ideas the greater quality of the board.

As the season approaches this is the time. I think people will really like it there. I know I have called it my home on the internet since 2008.

Come join us for what is shaping up to be a very interesting 2021 NFL season and the world in general."
 
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Thank you for all the comments everyone. A few short additions and replies:

No worries if you don't currently participate in there. That is part of why it exists. So you don't have to be exposed to it if you don't want to be.

Again, much of what I said applies to the political forum specifically. The main forum is more free. Sports is contentious. But that contention can be fun.

I recently removed access to the political forum for unregistered users. That also means Google ads can not run there, so that means a hit to whatever pennies Google sends me. One former member accused me of doing it just so he couldn't read it anymore, after calling me a coward. The truth here is because of everything I stated above, it is a member only forum now.

John, if I ever do feel the need or pressure to shut it down, we can talk about alternatives, but I hope it never comes to that. Also, thank you so much for the marketing efforts. I believe that is the only way to build membership now. Back in the day, I would work weekly with opposing team fan sites for cross promotion and that worked very well. Not really viable any longer with everyone on social media. I created Facebook and Twitter accounts for the boards, but without followers, they are kind of meaningless, and I have neglected them a bit. The way to get the word out now is through word of mouth. Every thread has the ability for every user to share on their own social media. Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, Pininterest, Tumblr, Whatsapp, and email. Everyone can use these icons to share with their social circles if they wish.

I am incredibly proud of everyone that has been a regular here now or in the past, and all are welcome back to help the rebuild of this incredible community. (There are a total of two members with over 100 posts currently banned. One of them is rumored to be deceased).
 
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I certainly don't envy anyone that has to moderate the PF, it can get pretty heated in there but I think you do a pretty good job of keeping it under control. Can't say that I'm surprised about the Mane closing up shop, their PF seemed to be taking over their site which is never good for a sports oriented forum.
 
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