OT - Questions about evolution

Flagg the Wanderer

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The theory of evolution on a micro-scale makes a great deal of sense to me. On a macro scale, not so much. All the little improvements that a species makes do not seem to add up to the huge diversity that we see around us.

I'm not a creationist, but I'd talked to a number of them and they raise questions that I haven't been able to address to my satisfaction. I have problems comprehending some of the details of the theory as it is currently constituted.

These are honest questions that I could probably find the answers to if I were motivated to do so, I suppose. In truth, I've poked around some, and not found much that was helpful. I raised these questions as an undergrad, found the prof's answers unsatisfactory and/or evasive, and kept pressing - I was booted from the class. I thought someone here might know:

What evolutionary benefit would partially developed, non-functional wings offer, especially developing such at the expense of (rather than in addition to) arms or flippers?

Under what circumstances would a swimming or land-bound creature find the random mutation of hollow bones beneficial rather than a horrific doom (think Mr. Glass from unbreakable, except living in the wild instead of able to hide in society, or alternatively, trying to spend your whole life fighting if you were only 2/3 the weight you were evolved to be ideally)?

An animal's endocrine system dumps various chemicals/hormones into our system which balance each other out - some would be poisonous, others simply crippling. How do you evolve a system like that gradually? The system of any given animal is different of course, but all are carefully balanced.

What use is the "precursor to an eye"? Or did eyes/vision enter into a species by mutation in one jump - from absolutely nothing to some sort of light sensing equipment plus the neural wiring (of some sort) to interpret the light that is sensed? Ditto for every other sense, really, but the eye is a great example because it is so complicated, even the simplest eye.

Natural selection is a weeding out process of the traits in a species least conducive to survival. How does this generate new traits and INCREASE the variation needed for evolutionary theory?

Was evolution simply much, much slower before animals and some plants evolved sexual reproduction, and with it genetic recombination that allows for exponentially faster genetic mutations? Before this development, any evolution was reliant on "copy errors" as an organism made a carbon copy of itself, right?

Other stuff along this line. I never did too much with biology, in part because when I raised questions my teachers and professors grew very hostile very quickly. And that was before I was religious - I was only curious and...Missourian (for lack of a better adjective). Incredulous maybe?

Thanks in advance.
 
Natural selection is a weeding out process of the traits in a species least conducive to survival. How does this generate new traits and INCREASE the variation needed for evolutionary theory?
I'm not too conversant on the biological side of the sciences, but natural selection doesn't generate new traits. New traits arise through mutation. Natural selection is just a term that was coined to describe the process that occurs when less desirable mutations fail to survive, and more desirable mutations thrive and spread through a species' population.

Desirable is probably the wrong word - favorable to survival is kind of cumbersome, though.
 
The theory of evolution on a micro-scale makes a great deal of sense to me. On a macro scale, not so much. All the little improvements that a species makes do not seem to add up to the huge diversity that we see around us.

I'm not a creationist, but I'd talked to a number of them and they raise questions that I haven't been able to address to my satisfaction. I have problems comprehending some of the details of the theory as it is currently constituted.

These are honest questions that I could probably find the answers to if I were motivated to do so, I suppose. In truth, I've poked around some, and not found much that was helpful. I raised these questions as an undergrad, found the prof's answers unsatisfactory and/or evasive, and kept pressing - I was booted from the class. I thought someone here might know:

What evolutionary benefit would partially developed, non-functional wings offer, especially developing such at the expense of (rather than in addition to) arms or flippers?

Under what circumstances would a swimming or land-bound creature find the random mutation of hollow bones beneficial rather than a horrific doom (think Mr. Glass from unbreakable, except living in the wild instead of able to hide in society, or alternatively, trying to spend your whole life fighting if you were only 2/3 the weight you were evolved to be ideally)?

An animal's endocrine system dumps various chemicals/hormones into our system which balance each other out - some would be poisonous, others simply crippling. How do you evolve a system like that gradually? The system of any given animal is different of course, but all are carefully balanced.

What use is the "precursor to an eye"? Or did eyes/vision enter into a species by mutation in one jump - from absolutely nothing to some sort of light sensing equipment plus the neural wiring (of some sort) to interpret the light that is sensed? Ditto for every other sense, really, but the eye is a great example because it is so complicated, even the simplest eye.

Natural selection is a weeding out process of the traits in a species least conducive to survival. How does this generate new traits and INCREASE the variation needed for evolutionary theory?

Was evolution simply much, much slower before animals and some plants evolved sexual reproduction, and with it genetic recombination that allows for exponentially faster genetic mutations? Before this development, any evolution was reliant on "copy errors" as an organism made a carbon copy of itself, right?

Other stuff along this line. I never did too much with biology, in part because when I raised questions my teachers and professors grew very hostile very quickly. And that was before I was religious - I was only curious and...Missourian (for lack of a better adjective). Incredulous maybe?

Thanks in advance.

They probably grew hostile because the answers are in the books if you read them and are online. ;)

I would take my kids out of any school that taught creationism as a scientific option because I do have a background in science.

You should do the reading and then you'll know why. The answers aren't that difficult to understand.
 
Is this the thread where I make my traditional "Jesus riding a dinosaur" joke that I find effing hiliarious, but that no one else really seems to laugh at? (it the mental image I get in my head)

7fbcfe4b94284f44112415e058b927.gif


And if that's not offensive enough, I present to you:

raptorjesus1ep9.jpg
 
They probably grew hostile because the answers are in the books if you read them and are online. ;)

I would take my kids out of any school that taught creationism as a scientific option because I do have a background in science.

You should do the reading and then you'll know why. The answers aren't that difficult to understand.

This explains a lot to me.
 
There's a creationist museum in Petersburg, Kentucky that shows dinasaurs and children in the same scene as a true representation of that period. That's enough for for me to be turned off. ROFL

They must have watched too much "land of the lost".
 
That sounds like a good reason to get hostile.


Not really. A basic Bio 101 class explains a lot of this.

I wouldn't expect to have a teacher stop a class on Hamlet so that he could explain to me what happened at the end of the story. Those are questions for after class. I didn't pay money to listen to a student debate about some theory that can't hold up the scientific scrutiny.
 
Just kidding, jaric.

I ****ing love red Xs.
 
The theory of evolution on a micro-scale makes a great deal of sense to me. On a macro scale, not so much. All the little improvements that a species makes do not seem to add up to the huge diversity that we see around us.

I'm not a creationist, but I'd talked to a number of them and they raise questions that I haven't been able to address to my satisfaction. I have problems comprehending some of the details of the theory as it is currently constituted.

These are honest questions that I could probably find the answers to if I were motivated to do so, I suppose. In truth, I've poked around some, and not found much that was helpful. I raised these questions as an undergrad, found the prof's answers unsatisfactory and/or evasive, and kept pressing - I was booted from the class. I thought someone here might know:

What evolutionary benefit would partially developed, non-functional wings offer, especially developing such at the expense of (rather than in addition to) arms or flippers?

......

Flagg -

I totally accept the premise of evolution. Like you, I have serious questions regarding the mechanics by which favorable mutations occur...I just do not buy into the randomness aspect. I believe if you considered the vast number of incremental favorable mutations, the amount of time it would take for each of these incremental mutations to work its way through the population, and the limited number of generations since our primordial ancestors first crawled from the muck...the numbers can't add up. There has to be something else driving these mutations. Possibly some completely unknown mechanism through which chromosomes/genes can somehow receive information about the host's environment, and react by recombining based on that information. Instead of random mutations, mutations that are driven by a heretofore unknown force...intelligent design?...to encode beneficial changes into the DNA.

Your bird wing analogy is perfect. As a matter of fact, I have brought up the same example in the past, including this post:


If you don't discount evolution, then you do discount creationism. You can't have both, it's gotta be one or the other. Did God create the earth and all of it's inhabitants in 7 days, or did we all evolve from single celled organisms over billions of years? They don't mesh.
You are wrong. As a matter of fact, the majority of scientists, while accepting Darwin's principles, are not atheists.

It is a fact that our DNA carries the code by which our physical traits are formed. It is a fact that segments of our DNA do recombine into different sequences...usually harmless, and sometimes harmful or fatal. On rare occasions, the newly formed sequence happens to result in a trait that makes our offspring more likely to survive and pass these traits to future generations. Over time, those traits become more predominant in the general population.

Where intelligent people can disagree is with the randomness of the whole process. A beneficial trait (such as the formation of wings that allow a bird to fly), is the result of a series of many small mutations. Each of these new traits along the way has to give the organism a survival advantage.

It is not unreasonable to accept the mechanism, but question the overall cause. Could such an intricate system...not only of life, but of the universe itself...have come about completely by chance?

Science can trace the "origin" of the universe all the way back to the Big Bang....but no further

If we accept that, at some point, there was a speck that was about to explode into what we now call the universe, shouldn't we also ask how that pre-bang speck got there?

I consider myself fairly well versed in science. But I do believe that science and mathematics only explain certain aspects of being. Somewhere along the line, it seems that some type of intelligence infinitely beyond our ability to comprehend, somehow put together this whole framework of subatomic particles, energy, the natural order described by mathematics, the nature of our own consciousness, and stuffed it into a tiny speck.

Personally, I think that anyone who can believe that everything just came about by random chance is missing the bigger picture.

-----
There was a funny scene in the HBO series "Luckie Louie", when Louie's buddies Mike and Rich (Jim Norton) were discussing the existence of God.

Rich: "Eh, all religions are bullsh1t for a bunch of nitwits that don't wanna admit that we're all just a bunch of slimey fish who grew legs, for morons who can't accept the fact that there's no God."
Mike: "Well of course there's a God."
Rich: "What proof of there is that?"
Mike: "Well what do you think made you, as$hole?"
Rich: "What the f*ck does that mean?"
Mike: "Well where'd you come from?"
Rich: "My mother's c*nt."
Mike: "Okay, well where'd she come from?"
Rich: "Her mother's c*nt. And her mother's c*nt before that. And it goes back like that, from c*nt to c*nt to c*nt to c*nt all the way back until eventually you get back to that slimey fish with no legs."
Mike: "Ok, where'd the fish come from?"
Rich: "His legless mother's c*nt. You see, everything and everybody comes from their mother's c*nt."
Mike: "Well hold on. With all these c*nts, I mean, they had to come from somewhere. Where'd they come from?"
Rich: "I guess they all come from one big, giant c*nt."
Mike: "Yeah, and that's God."
Rich: (In thought) "...Maybe...maybe."
----
There was also another funny sequence on that show where Louie's little daughter asked him a question about something. He gave her an answer, and she asked "Why". He gave another answer, she again asked "Why?"
This went on and on until Louie got pissed off and finally snaps at her "Because God is dead and we're alone."
-----
 
I didn't pay money to listen to a student debate about some theory that can't hold up the scientific scrutiny.

To be fair, FtW just said he raised questions. I know I don't pay my professors to not answer questions.
 
To be fair, FtW just said he raised questions. I know I don't pay my professors to not answer questions.

The answers are all out there. I didn't say they couldn't be asked in private. If the professor cares to enter a debate, fine. I'm sure you've been in classes where you've had to sit there while some student took the class off on a tangent and held the rest of the class hostage for some topic that only put you further behind in what you needed to go over.

I'm not singling out the original poster as much as the answers are in many places. I'm not sure he's going to get the best answers to those questions from a football message board.
 
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