QBR Rating

midgar8784

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Ok I need Trent Dilfer to sit down with me and explain to me this weird formula...I will give you 5 sets of stats here and you guess the QBR's for each.


51-77 66.2% 552 yards 3 td's 1 int

43-76 56.6% 533 yards 3 td's 3 ints

43-63 68% 494 yards 3 td's 3 ints

52-88 59% 688 yards 3td's 6 ints

43-60 71% 508 yards 4 td's 1 int


Ok here are the 5 QBR's for these QB's...without looking match them up

58
48.3
48
81.9
76.7

ok go
 
And here's a write-up on the stat for you:

Like body mass index, IQ and the gross national product, the NFL's passer rating roughly measures something important but yields deeply flawed results. It's always been a jury-rigged stat just waiting for the sabermetric revolution to kick out its struts and build something better in its place.

Well, ladies and gentlemen, the wrecking crew has arrived, and the extreme makeover has commenced. Welcome to Total Quarterback Rating (QBR), a new way of looking at QBs based on ESPN's analysis of nearly 60,000 NFL plays over the past three seasons. QBR looks at every facet of quarterback play, from passing and rushing to fumbling and taking sacks, and allocates credit or blame to QBs according to how each and every play they make contributes to their team's success.

Do we all really need another uber-stat? Well, yes, because there are two basic problems with traditional passer ratings: what they measure and what they don't measure. The official formula for passer rating is actually less complicated than its reputation. It takes completions, passing yards, touchdown passes and interceptions, all on a per-attempt basis, compares each to a league-average figure, and mashes them into one number. But passer rating doesn't attempt to weight its categories by their importance to winning football games. It just averages them together, which tends to bias scores heavily in favor of QBs who complete a lot of short passes, driving up completion percentage without necessarily generating more yards or points. It's even possible, absurdly enough, to improve your rating by throwing passes for negative yards.

Another issue: the league averages that passer rating uses to grade QBs come from the Paleozoic 1970s, when a special NFL committee put the stat together, and when football's rules and strategies were both far less friendly to passers than today. How much has the game changed since then? Well, in 1973, the year passer rating became an official stat, Roman Gabriel, then with the Eagles, led the league with 3,219 passing yards, a total that would have ranked 18th in the NFL last year. A QB's passer rating is partly, often largely, a product of the time in which he played, rendering era-to-era comparisons nearly useless.

And what good is a stat if it can't help settle who's-greatest brawls?

Let's look at what's left out of the official passer rating formula. Michael Vick led the NFL with 6.8 yards per rushing attempt last season, but the system the league uses to rate QBs gives him no credit for the 676 yards or nine TDs his legs generated. Conversely, Jay Cutler lost 352 yards on sacks, but Osi Umenyiora could still be planting Cutler near Jimmy Hoffa and passer rating wouldn't notice. It counts the four categories it cares about, and only those four. Just as important, passer rating doesn't consider how or when a QB racks up passing yards, TDs or INTs. Throw for 300 yards and a couple of scores as you're trying to avoid getting shut out in a hopeless loss, and you'll inflate your rating; heave a Hail Mary jump-ball INT as the clock runs out in the first half, and you'll drag your rating down.

We shouldn't bash the inventors of passer rating too harshly, though. Don Smith of the Pro Football Hall of Fame, Don Weiss of the NFL and Seymour Siwoff of the Elias Sports Bureau heeded a call of duty from then-commissioner Pete Rozelle and did their best with the stats they had. And their formula is probably better than any of the eight other systems the league tried between 1932 and 1972. But passer rating is a perfect example of everything that can go awry with kitchen-sink stats, where an inventor throws together a bunch of data that looks important, breaks out his calculator and sees what he can come up with. QBR takes a different tack; it measures the connection between plays and points on the field, between points and team wins, and then gives credit where credit is due.

QBR starts with this insight: Any possession in a football game has an expected value -- the average number of points the team with possession can expect to score, based on all the historical outcomes for teams facing the same down, distance, field position and time remaining. And that means we can evaluate any play by how much it increases or decreases a team's expected point total.

For instance, if your favorite team is playing at home and has a third-and-7 from its opponent's 45-yard line with 14:55 remaining in the fourth quarter, it will score, on average, 1.8 points. Suppose your team then gains 42 yards on its next play, giving it a first-and-goal at the 3-yard line with 14:30 left in the game. In that situation, teams average 5.6 points. So the value of that play is the difference between 5.6 and 1.8, or 3.8 expected points.

It doesn't matter whether the play was a bomb, a screen pass, a draw up the middle, a recovered double fumble or a pass-interference penalty. It's worth 3.8 points, and if you add up the expected values added by all of your team's plays in a game or a season, you will get something very close to the number of points it actually scored.

QBR allocates the points added by every play in an NFL season to each of the players involved, every play. On completed passes, for example, it splits credit among QBs, receivers and blockers, depending on factors such as whether the quarterback was under duress, where he threw the ball, how far it traveled and how many yards the receiver gained after the catch. QBR splits the blame for sacks on quarterbacks and offensive linemen and attributes QB fumbles to QBs. Further, QBR weights every play by its clutch value -- its contribution to a team's chances of winning, given the score of a game, not just to scoring points.

And if you care at all about stats, that's the key: QBR finally brings all the advantages of win probability to football. To determine who the most valuable player in the NFL is, compare the average value of, say, wide receivers and defensive backs, or figure out whether it's worth it to onside kick, you need a system that tells you how much various plays affect a team's probability of winning a game. QBR does just that for quarterbacks. A 5-yard completion on third-and-3 is much more valuable to QBR than a 5-yard completion on third-and-15 because, in real life, it gives the quarterback's team a much better chance of coming out ahead.

QBR is scaled from 0 to 100, with 50 representing league-average performance. For a single game, a rating in the 90s is terrific; last year, Vick's six-TD Monday night symphony against the Redskins topped the charts at 99.8. For a season, any QBR above 65 is Pro Bowl-caliber, and Tom Brady led all starters with a 76.0 QBR in 2010.

But those are just the top-line numbers. Delve into the finer details of QBR, and we can quantify the true greatness of Peyton Manning, who has added 107.5 clutch-weighted points a year to the Colts' offense since 2008, significantly more than any other QB in the NFL. We can see who has killed his team worst over the past three seasons with sacks (Cutler, minus-55.5 clutch-weighted points in 2010), interceptions (Cutler, minus-44.1 in 2009) and fumbles (that's right, Cutler again, minus-15.6 in 2010). Vick helped his team the most with his legs last season (22.1 clutch-weighted points). Matt Ryan adds more than a touchdown a year to the Falcons' offense just by inducing opponent penalties. We can also start to appreciate players and skills that used to go unrecognized.

In fact, we can … well, you get the point. Now that the lockout is finally over, we've got all season to play in this shiny new house. And the difference between QBR and all the ramshackle metrics that have come before is that this rating isn't just convenient, it's also comprehensive and meaningful. We're moving on up.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6835090/nfl-total-quarterback-rating-shifts-way-see-position
 
Ok I need Trent Dilfer to sit down with me and explain to me this weird formula...I will give you 5 sets of stats here and you guess the QBR's for each.


51-77 66.2% 552 yards 3 td's 1 int

43-76 56.6% 533 yards 3 td's 3 ints

43-63 68% 494 yards 3 td's 3 ints

52-88 59% 688 yards 3td's 6 ints

43-60 71% 508 yards 4 td's 1 int


Ok here are the 5 QBR's for these QB's...without looking match them up

58
48.3
48
81.9
76.7

ok go


43-60 71% 508 yards 4 td's 1 int 81.9

51-77 66.2% 552 yards 3 td's 1 int 76.7

43-76 56.6% 533 yards 3 td's 3 ints 48.3

43-63 68% 494 yards 3 td's 3 ints 48.0

52-88 59% 688 yards 3td's 6 ints 58.0

I have them listed in the order I think they should go, but since the two in the 48 range were nearly identical, I assumed that the 6int ranking was higher due to the yardage.
 
43-60 71% 508 yards 4 td's 1 int 81.9

51-77 66.2% 552 yards 3 td's 1 int 76.7

43-76 56.6% 533 yards 3 td's 3 ints 48.3

43-63 68% 494 yards 3 td's 3 ints 48.0

52-88 59% 688 yards 3td's 6 ints 58.0

I have them listed in the order I think they should go, but since the two in the 48 range were nearly identical, I assumed that the 6int ranking was higher due to the yardage.

Good try, but incorrect...in fact, all of yours were wrong. I am not bashing you by the way, this is kind of my point.
 
Looking forward to seeing the right answer...

Ok, here you go and then maybe you explain it, because I can't....silly dilfer..


43-60 71% 508 yards 4 td's 1 int 58.0

51-77 66.2% 552 yards 3 td's 1 int 48.0

43-76 56.6% 533 yards 3 td's 3 ints 81.9

43-63 68% 494 yards 3 td's 3 ints 76.7

52-88 59% 688 yards 3td's 6 ints 48.3
 
Meh. It's a :BS: stat ESPN made up in an attempt to be relevant when it comes to the NFL. (Edit: Originally, I think it was created as a way to make Mark Sanchez look like a competent NFL QB, but he even screwed THAT up)


It's a :BS: stat, like "Ray Lewis # of tackles"

Glad that you agree with midgar. :thumb:

And I highly doubt that it was invented as a way to prop up Mark Sanchez, seeing as to how it's ranked Sanchez as #26 in 2009, #18 in 2010, and #30 in 2011. Circling the bottom is about where I'd put him.

And I'll admit that I haven't done a full analysis on the stat, but the write-up that I posted is correct in that there are MANY things that go into a QB's effectiveness that no stat covers. So the stat's heart is in the right place so to speak. Does it accurately measure what it's supposed to reflect? That's the question.
 
Glad that you agree with midgar. :thumb:

And I highly doubt that it was invented as a way to prop up Mark Sanchez, seeing as to how it's ranked Sanchez as #26 in 2009, #18 in 2010, and #30 in 2011. Circling the bottom is about where I'd put him.

And I'll admit that I haven't done a full analysis on the stat, but the write-up that I posted is correct in that there are MANY things that go into a QB's effectiveness that no stat covers. So the stat's heart is in the right place so to speak. Does it accurately measure what it's supposed to reflect? That's the question.

Sorry, but one problem is, a high amount of blame goes on the Qb for sacks in this formula, which is not always the QB's fault and it also more than usual has Qb rushing stats as a main contributor....sorry man, you throw under 60% and have as many ints as td's and you are twice as much as a guy at 66% with 3 times as many td's as ints....something is wrong.
 
Glad that you agree with midgar. :thumb:

And I highly doubt that it was invented as a way to prop up Mark Sanchez, seeing as to how it's ranked Sanchez as #26 in 2009, #18 in 2010, and #30 in 2011. Circling the bottom is about where I'd put him.

And I'll admit that I haven't done a full analysis on the stat, but the write-up that I posted is correct in that there are MANY things that go into a QB's effectiveness that no stat covers. So the stat's heart is in the right place so to speak. Does it accurately measure what it's supposed to reflect? That's the question.

There are too many subjective factors in the stat for it to be taken seriously. For example, who determines what "clutch" is? Trent Dilfer? Is there a "Clutch Determination Committee" in Bristol?

You're a stat guy. I know this about you, and I know your love for things like BABIP in baseball. So be honest and not contrarian for a second.

How many stats do you rely on; that include subjective elements like "clutch"?

I can look at a football player, and tell if they're "clutch" or not - but it's not something that can be quantifiable in a stat. That's all I'm saying, and that's what makes it "Ray Lewis # of Tackles" laugh-worthy.
 
There are too many subjective factors in the stat for it to be taken seriously. For example, who determines what "clutch" is? Trent Dilfer? Is there a "Clutch Determination Committee" in Bristol?

You're a stat guy. I know this about you, and I know your love for things like BABIP in baseball. So be honest and not contrarian for a second.

How many stats do you rely on; that include subjective elements like "clutch"?

I can look at a football player, and tell if they're "clutch" or not - but it's not something that can be quantifiable in a stat. That's all I'm saying, and that's what makes it "Ray Lewis # of Tackles" laugh-worthy.

I don't disagree with too much of any of this, really. I'd say that trying to quantify all of that seems like way too big of a task for any stat to undertake. Then again, I've been wrong before and if this stat can effectively do that, then cool.

At the end of the day, I view this stat like I view most all of them. It's flawed (I've yet to encounter a perfect stat, and you're right I'm a stats guy so I've looked at a lot of them and none has been perfect. Since you brought up baseball, there's Pythagorean record and how that relates to what the Orioles are doing this year). But yes, it's undoubtedly flawed, but is it useless? I think that it very possibly could have its place and tell part of the story and be useful in evaluating (when including other stats as well, of course).
 
Sorry, but one problem is, a high amount of blame goes on the Qb for sacks in this formula, which is not always the QB's fault and it also more than usual has Qb rushing stats as a main contributor....sorry man, you throw under 60% and have as many ints as td's and you are twice as much as a guy at 66% with 3 times as many td's as ints....something is wrong.

And TD's, INT's and completions are all (at least partially) dependent on another guy as well.

An INT or an incompletion are not "always the QB's fault", wouldn't you agree? Well, I know that you agree, seeing as to how you're in another thread arguing that some of Brady's incompletions weren't his fault and I know that you've argued that some of his INT's haven't been his fault, either.

Every stat is flawed. The rationale that you're giving for this stat being flawed, in that it takes into account what could be another person's fault is the flaw behind looking at the numbers that you cite. It's the reason that this stat was invented.
 
I don't disagree with too much of any of this, really. I'd say that trying to quantify all of that seems like way too big of a task for any stat to undertake. Then again, I've been wrong before and if this stat can effectively do that, then cool.

At the end of the day, I view this stat like I view most all of them. It's flawed (I've yet to encounter a perfect stat, and you're right I'm a stats guy so I've looked at a lot of them and none has been perfect. Since you brought up baseball, there's Pythagorean record and how that relates to what the Orioles are doing this year). But yes, it's undoubtedly flawed, but is it useless? I think that it very possibly could have its place and tell part of the story and be useful in evaluating (when including other stats as well, of course).

Thing is, QB rating accomplishes this just as well.

The only difference is that it's based on a scale from 0 to 158.3 instead of 100. So ESPN calls it "confusing". It's only "confusing" if you can't wrap your head around a number bigger than 100.

I mean, QBR includes things like QB runs; which, IMO, if your main asset as a QB is that you can run - chances are, you're a relatively shitty QB.

And "clutch". I can't get past that one. Who determines it? Does Berman sit in the studio, and determine something's clutch by the amount of unfunny phrases he can say about it?
 
And TD's, INT's and completions are all (at least partially) dependent on another guy as well.

An INT or an incompletion are not "always the QB's fault", wouldn't you agree? Well, I know that you agree, seeing as to how you're in another thread arguing that some of Brady's incompletions weren't his fault and I know that you've argued that some of his INT's haven't been his fault, either.

Every stat is flawed. The rationale that you're giving for this stat being flawed, in that it takes into account what could be another person's fault is the flaw behind looking at the numbers that you cite. It's the reason that this stat was invented.

I never said in another thread that Brady's incompletions were not his fault? I never said that even once? Look man I do not like the formula, I think its pretty flawed from what I can see...sorry but you do not need to make up things I say in order to try and make your point. This stat is based too much on what Dilfer thinks is clutch or not the Qb's fault, or not the receivers fault...how the hell would he know? Its based more on his opinion than actual facts and stats....they are guessing and from the looks of it, guessing wrong...I know that you like it because it says luck is the 3rd best Qb in the NFL....I get it...
 
Thing is, QB rating accomplishes this just as well.

The only difference is that it's based on a scale from 0 to 158.3 instead of 100. So ESPN calls it "confusing". It's only "confusing" if you can't wrap your head around a number bigger than 100.

I mean, QBR includes things like QB runs; which, IMO, if your main asset as a QB is that you can run - chances are, you're a relatively shitty QB.

And "clutch". I can't get past that one. Who determines it? Does Berman sit in the studio, and determine something's clutch by the amount of unfunny phrases he can say about it?

Well, the biggest difference between this stat, and regular QB Rating is (in theory, of course):

QBR looks at every facet of quarterback play, from passing and rushing to fumbling and taking sacks, and allocates credit or blame to QBs according to how each and every play they make contributes to their team's success.

and that the flaw being with regular QB Rating is that:

It takes completions, passing yards, touchdown passes and interceptions, all on a per-attempt basis, compares each to a league-average figure, and mashes them into one number. But passer rating doesn't attempt to weight its categories by their importance to winning football games. It just averages them together, which tends to bias scores heavily in favor of QBs who complete a lot of short passes, driving up completion percentage without necessarily generating more yards or points. It's even possible, absurdly enough, to improve your rating by throwing passes for negative yards.

Another issue: the league averages that passer rating uses to grade QBs come from the Paleozoic 1970s, when a special NFL committee put the stat together, and when football's rules and strategies were both far less friendly to passers than today. How much has the game changed since then? Well, in 1973, the year passer rating became an official stat, Roman Gabriel, then with the Eagles, led the league with 3,219 passing yards, a total that would have ranked 18th in the NFL last year. A QB's passer rating is partly, often largely, a product of the time in which he played, rendering era-to-era comparisons nearly useless.

Both stats are undoubtedly flawed. Standard QB rating for the reasons listed above. Total QB Rating for the fact, that as you list, it's probably impossible (and entirely subjective) to try to quantify clutch (and there's the fact that Romo somehow checks in highly last year on a stat allegedly weighs clutch into consideration so much).
 
Well, the biggest difference between this stat, and regular QB Rating is (in theory, of course):



and that the flaw being with regular QB Rating is that:



Both stats are undoubtedly flawed. Standard QB rating for the reasons listed above. Total QB Rating for the fact, that as you list, it's probably impossible (and entirely subjective) to try to quantify clutch (and there's the fact that Romo somehow checks in highly last year on a stat allegedly weighs clutch into consideration so much).

I am not saying Qb rating is great....but at least it takes raw numbers and throws them in a formula, this is taking the opinion on what they think equals a play that contributes to the teams success......wha?? Oh...did you see that trent, that was clutch....5 points....they do not know if a receiver ran the wrong route, they do not know if the Qb made a bad read, they are assuming too much and basing it on their opinion....yet they do not do that for sacks...all sacks are against the Qb, no matter what....as I said, its just flawed in too many ways. I think they designed it to help guys like Vick more than anything....but after watching Vick for the past two weeks if you can say that he is playing better Qb than brady or Rodgers, then I am not sure what to say.
 
I am not saying Qb rating is great....but at least it takes raw numbers and throws them in a formula, this is taking the opinion on what they think equals a play that contributes to the teams success......wha?? Oh...did you see that trent, that was clutch....5 points....they do not know if a receiver ran the wrong route, they do not know if the Qb made a bad read, they are assuming too much and basing it on their opinion....yet they do not do that for sacks...all sacks are against the Qb, no matter what....as I said, its just flawed in too many ways. I think they designed it to help guys like Vick more than anything....but after watching Vick for the past two weeks if you can say that he is playing better Qb than brady or Rodgers, then I am not sure what to say.

And I've never said that this Total QB Rating statistic is some gold standard in quarterback evaluation. While I'm sure it does fall short in some of the evaluating that you point out, standard QB rating doesn't even try to quantify that. The end result is that way too much of what goes into being a QB is left not evaluated.

There's also the fact that standard QB rating currently has this as the top QB's in the NFL:

1. Matt Ryan
2. Alex Smith
3. Sam Bradford
4. Robert Griffin
5. Philip Rivers
6. Christian Ponder

(Mark Sanchez is #10, ahead of Brady, both Manning brothers, Rodgers, and Brees)


So is regular QB rating a useless stat? I mean, if you want to tell me that Ponder, Sanchez and Alex Smith are better than Rodgers and Brady, then I don't know what to tell you.

At the end of the day, all of these stats have their role.
 
And I've never said that this Total QB Rating statistic is some gold standard in quarterback evaluation. While I'm sure it does fall short in some of the evaluating that you point out, standard QB rating doesn't even try to quantify that. The end result is that way too much of what goes into being a QB is left not evaluated.

There's also the fact that standard QB rating currently has this as the top QB's in the NFL:

1. Matt Ryan
2. Alex Smith
3. Sam Bradford
4. Robert Griffin
5. Philip Rivers
6. Christian Ponder

So is regular QB rating a useless stat? I mean, if you want to tell me that Ponder and Alex Smith are better than Rodgers and Brady, then I don't know what to tell you.

At the end of the day, all of these stats have their role.


Well they have played better, but again as I said....a player who is completing under 60% of his passes and has as many ints as TD's is not twice as good as a guy with 67% completion and 3 times as many td's as int...thats just off....I guess it all works out in the end, but thats just off.
 
Well they have played better, but again as I said....a player who is completing under 60% of his passes and has as many ints as TD's is not twice as good as a guy with 67% completion and 3 times as many td's as int...thats just off....I guess it all works out in the end, but thats just off.

Quick question: what stat is an infallible stat that can be used as a universal indicator of QB performance? Or does one not exist? That's sort of my point, that there is no one stat that can be used to gauge a QB's performance. The evaluation of a QB is an amalgamation of stats and first-hand accounts. I'm simply adding one more stat that can be a piece of the pie. I'm not arguing that Total QB Rating is the sole criteria for the MVP award.

Then again...it actually does perfectly coincide with the MVP winners of the past few years.

In 2011, Rodgers finished with the best Total QB Rating and won the MVP.

In 2010, Brady finished with the best Total QB Rating and won the MVP.

In 2009, Manning finished with the best and won the MVP

In 2008, Manning finished with the best and won the MVP.

So it must be doing something right? :shrug:
 
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