Religion

TipRoast

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Where’s the outrage... right here in the US

~Dee~
I have posted on this subject several times on this board - you could do a search of "mutilation" using my name and get a few hits.

No one should be surprised by this - this is what religions do. Religions want to exert complete control over their adherents, mind and body. Submission is the key word here - if a person is a member of a religion/cult, then that person must submit to the edicts of that religion/cult.

And if the person submitting is a child, then decisions are made for the child that the child has no power to overcome, or in the case of FGM, to reverse.
 

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I have posted on this subject several times on this board - you could do a search of "mutilation" using my name and get a few hits.

No one should be surprised by this - this is what religions do. Religions want to exert complete control over their adherents, mind and body. Submission is the key word here - if a person is a member of a religion/cult, then that person must submit to the edicts of that religion/cult.

And if the person submitting is a child, then decisions are made for the child that the child has no power to overcome, or in the case of FGM, to reverse.
I agree. I haven’t been around much so sorry I missed it. It wasn’t directed at anyone in particular but I appreciate your response.

As for submission I really don’t agree it’s just a religious thing..... Truth be told I find it equally as horrendous when parents, family members, teachers, coaches, and any other person of authority in a child’s life, is abusive in any way. Even if the parents, teachers, etc, think their doing the right thing for said child because of the dogma being perched by anyone, but this is a religion thread so I was sticking to religion.

~Dee~
 

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I agree. I haven’t been around much so sorry I missed it. It wasn’t directed at anyone in particular but I appreciate your response.

As for submission I really don’t agree it’s just a religious thing..... Truth be told I find it equally as horrendous when parents, family members, teachers, coaches, and any other person of authority in a child’s life, is abusive in any way. Even if the parents, teachers, etc, think their doing the right thing for said child because of the dogma being perched by anyone, but this is a religion thread so I was sticking to religion.

~Dee~

“Give me a child for the first seven years,” says a famous maxim attributed to the Jesuits, “and you may do what you like with him afterwards.”

You are absolutely right about those in a childs environment who exert pressure to contort children into monstrosities based on their own deeply held beliefs whether rational or not.

A perfect example of this is my long-ago ex-girlfriend's wonderful 18-year-old son. She, her family, and everyone around him are deeply Christian. Luke is gay. You can just imagine the difficulties he's having as everyone he knows is either sad about it, mad about it, or want him to go to church and get fixed. Not to mention that he is an atheist.

They are breaking this beautiful and independent mind that made it out of public school almost intellectually unscathed.

He has retreated into his own world and rarely goes out. He's depressed and in need of some sanity in his life. I have taken him under my wing. We spend as much time together talking at my favorite rest spot on the river. My ex asked me if he could move in with me for college in the fall and I excitedly accepted. He has the potential to set the world on fire in glory.

The key is to give children the operating manual for their minds. Teach them the art of reasoning and set them on their path of self-discovery. They will find truth and reality on their own. This was how I was raised. Most of the world has been indoctrinated in some form or fashion through the familial unit, authorities such as church, the public education system, and implicity from the culture. Very few escape it and create an independent mind for themselves but it can be done.

I highly recommend this phenomenal essay by Ayn Rand on just this topic. The historical imagery she uses to illustrate her points are horrifying and accurate.


An excerpt:

The comprachicos, or comprapequeños, were a strange and hideous nomadic association, famous in the seventeenth century, forgotten in the eighteenth, unknown today …

Comprachicos, as well as comprapequeños, is a compound Spanish word that means “child-buyers.” The comprachicos traded in children. They bought them and sold them. They did not steal them. The kidnapping of children is a different industry.

And what did they make of these children?

Monsters.

Why monsters?

To laugh.

The people need laughter; so do the kings. Cities require side-show freaks or clowns; palaces require jesters …

To succeed in producing a freak, one must get hold of him early. A dwarf must be started when he is small …

Hence, an art. There were educators. They took a man and turned him into a miscarriage; they took a face and made a muzzle. They stunted growth; they mangled features. This artificial production of teratological cases had its own rules. It was a whole science. Imagine an inverted orthopedics. Where God had put a straight glance, this art put a squint. Where God had put harmony, they put deformity. Where God had put perfection, they brought back a botched attempt. And, in the eyes of connoisseurs, it is the botched that was perfect …

The practice of degrading man leads one to the practice of deforming him. Deformity completes the task of political suppression …

The comprachicos had a talent, to disfigure, that made them valuable in politics. To disfigure is better than to kill. There was the iron mask, but that is an awkward means. One cannot populate Europe with iron masks; deformed mountebanks, however, run through the streets without appearing implausible; besides, an iron mask can be torn off, a mask of flesh cannot. To mask you forever by means of your own face, nothing can be more ingenious …

The comprachicos did not merely remove a child’s face, they removed his memory. At least, they removed as much of it as they could. The child was not aware of the mutilation he had suffered. This horrible surgery left traces on his face, not in his mind. He could remember at most that one day he had been seized by some men, then had fallen asleep, and later they had cured him. Cured him of what? He did not know. Of the burning by sulphur and the incisions by iron, he remembered nothing. During the operation, the comprachicos made the little 2 patient unconscious by means of a stupefying powder that passed for magic and suppressed pain …

In China, since time immemorial, they have achieved refinement in a special art and industry: the molding of a living man. One takes a child two or three years old, one puts him into a porcelain vase, more or less grotesque in shape, without cover or bottom, so that the head and feet protrude. In the daytime, one keeps this vase standing upright; at night, one lays it down, so that the child can sleep. Thus the child expands without growing, slowly filling the contours of the vase with his compressed flesh and twisted bones. This bottled development continues for several years. At a certain point, it becomes irreparable. When one judges that this has occurred and that the monster is made, one breaks the vase, the child comes out, and one has a man in the shape of a pot. (Victor Hugo, The Man Who Laughs, translation mine.)

Victor Hugo wrote this in the nineteenth century. His exalted mind could not conceive that so unspeakable a form of inhumanity would ever be possible again. The twentieth century proved him wrong.

The production of monsters—helpless, twisted monsters whose normal development has been stunted—goes on all around us. But the modern heirs of the comprachicos are smarter and subtler than their predecessors: they do not hide, they practice their trade in the open; they do not buy children, the children are delivered to them; they do not use sulphur or iron, they achieve their goal without ever laying a finger on their little victims.

The ancient comprachicos hid the operation, but displayed its results; their heirs have reversed the process: the operation is open, the results are invisible. In the past, this horrible surgery left traces on a child’s face, not in his mind. Today, it leaves traces in his mind, not on his face. In both cases, the child is not aware of the mutilation he has suffered. But today’s comprachicos do not use narcotic powders: they take a child before he is fully aware of reality and never let him develop that awareness. Where nature had put a normal brain, they put mental retardation. To make you unconscious for life by means of your own brain, nothing can be more ingenious. This is the ingenuity practiced by most of today’s educators.

They are the comprachicos of the mind.
 

deec77

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“Give me a child for the first seven years,” says a famous maxim attributed to the Jesuits, “and you may do what you like with him afterwards.”

You are absolutely right about those in a childs environment who exert pressure to contort children into monstrosities based on their own deeply held beliefs whether rational or not.

A perfect example of this is my long-ago ex-girlfriend's wonderful 18-year-old son. She, her family, and everyone around him are deeply Christian. Luke is gay. You can just imagine the difficulties he's having as everyone he knows is either sad about it, mad about it, or want him to go to church and get fixed. Not to mention that he is an atheist.

They are breaking this beautiful and independent mind that made it out of public school almost intellectually unscathed.

He has retreated into his own world and rarely goes out. He's depressed and in need of some sanity in his life. I have taken him under my wing. We spend as much time together talking at my favorite rest spot on the river. My ex asked me if he could move in with me for college in the fall and I excitedly accepted. He has the potential to set the world on fire in glory.

The key is to give children the operating manual for their minds. Teach them the art of reasoning and set them on their path of self-discovery. They will find truth and reality on their own. This was how I was raised. Most of the world has been indoctrinated in some form or fashion through the familial unit, authorities such as church, the public education system, and implicity from the culture. Very few escape it and create an independent mind for themselves but it can be done.

I highly recommend this phenomenal essay by Ayn Rand on just this topic. The historical imagery she uses to illustrate her points are horrifying and accurate.


An excerpt:

The comprachicos, or comprapequeños, were a strange and hideous nomadic association, famous in the seventeenth century, forgotten in the eighteenth, unknown today …

Comprachicos, as well as comprapequeños, is a compound Spanish word that means “child-buyers.” The comprachicos traded in children. They bought them and sold them. They did not steal them. The kidnapping of children is a different industry.

And what did they make of these children?

Monsters.

Why monsters?

To laugh.

The people need laughter; so do the kings. Cities require side-show freaks or clowns; palaces require jesters …

To succeed in producing a freak, one must get hold of him early. A dwarf must be started when he is small …

Hence, an art. There were educators. They took a man and turned him into a miscarriage; they took a face and made a muzzle. They stunted growth; they mangled features. This artificial production of teratological cases had its own rules. It was a whole science. Imagine an inverted orthopedics. Where God had put a straight glance, this art put a squint. Where God had put harmony, they put deformity. Where God had put perfection, they brought back a botched attempt. And, in the eyes of connoisseurs, it is the botched that was perfect …

The practice of degrading man leads one to the practice of deforming him. Deformity completes the task of political suppression …

The comprachicos had a talent, to disfigure, that made them valuable in politics. To disfigure is better than to kill. There was the iron mask, but that is an awkward means. One cannot populate Europe with iron masks; deformed mountebanks, however, run through the streets without appearing implausible; besides, an iron mask can be torn off, a mask of flesh cannot. To mask you forever by means of your own face, nothing can be more ingenious …

The comprachicos did not merely remove a child’s face, they removed his memory. At least, they removed as much of it as they could. The child was not aware of the mutilation he had suffered. This horrible surgery left traces on his face, not in his mind. He could remember at most that one day he had been seized by some men, then had fallen asleep, and later they had cured him. Cured him of what? He did not know. Of the burning by sulphur and the incisions by iron, he remembered nothing. During the operation, the comprachicos made the little 2 patient unconscious by means of a stupefying powder that passed for magic and suppressed pain …

In China, since time immemorial, they have achieved refinement in a special art and industry: the molding of a living man. One takes a child two or three years old, one puts him into a porcelain vase, more or less grotesque in shape, without cover or bottom, so that the head and feet protrude. In the daytime, one keeps this vase standing upright; at night, one lays it down, so that the child can sleep. Thus the child expands without growing, slowly filling the contours of the vase with his compressed flesh and twisted bones. This bottled development continues for several years. At a certain point, it becomes irreparable. When one judges that this has occurred and that the monster is made, one breaks the vase, the child comes out, and one has a man in the shape of a pot. (Victor Hugo, The Man Who Laughs, translation mine.)

Victor Hugo wrote this in the nineteenth century. His exalted mind could not conceive that so unspeakable a form of inhumanity would ever be possible again. The twentieth century proved him wrong.

The production of monsters—helpless, twisted monsters whose normal development has been stunted—goes on all around us. But the modern heirs of the comprachicos are smarter and subtler than their predecessors: they do not hide, they practice their trade in the open; they do not buy children, the children are delivered to them; they do not use sulphur or iron, they achieve their goal without ever laying a finger on their little victims.

The ancient comprachicos hid the operation, but displayed its results; their heirs have reversed the process: the operation is open, the results are invisible. In the past, this horrible surgery left traces on a child’s face, not in his mind. Today, it leaves traces in his mind, not on his face. In both cases, the child is not aware of the mutilation he has suffered. But today’s comprachicos do not use narcotic powders: they take a child before he is fully aware of reality and never let him develop that awareness. Where nature had put a normal brain, they put mental retardation. To make you unconscious for life by means of your own brain, nothing can be more ingenious. This is the ingenuity practiced by most of today’s educators.

They are the comprachicos of the mind.
There millions of examples of this throughout history all around the world, and in every country, religious or non religious...but I agree the Jesuits are an evil lot, the harm they’ve caused throughout the world....

Children should be taught to reason at home not by any educators they should only teach academics. The sooner parents realize they hold all the keys, the better off all our children would be.

~Dee~
 

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There millions of examples of this throughout history all around the world, and in every country, religious or non religious...but I agree the Jesuits are an evil lot, the harm they’ve caused throughout the world....

Children should be taught to reason at home not by any educators they should only teach academics. The sooner parents realize they hold all the keys, the better off all our children would be.

~Dee~

Absolutely 100% correct.
 

tehmackdaddy

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No one should be surprised by this - this is what religions do. Religions want to exert complete control over their adherents, mind and body. Submission is the key word here - if a person is a member of a religion/cult, then that person must submit to the edicts of that religion/cult.
Christianity is about freedom, not control.

I fully disagree.
 

TipRoast

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I was raised roman catholic and was of the impression that christianity is all about free will. There are afterlife consequences for your actions, whether good or bad, but you are free to choose.
 

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I was raised roman catholic and was of the impression that christianity is all about free will. There are afterlife consequences for your actions, whether good or bad, but you are free to choose.

That was my understanding growing up as well. However, over the years I read and heard arguments from theologians and life-long devoted Christians that we do not. Interesting.

As my signature states contradictions do not exist, if you find one check your premises, at least one is wrong.

I think I have found a contradiction in the pro-free-will biblical argument that no one I have asked has had a satisfactory answer to including pastors, theologians, and priests.

God is said to be omniscient, all-knowing, so God knows what actions you are going to take, if God knows what actions you are going your future is predetermined and therefore not free and falls under the category of determinism and not free will.

The error in the premise is there is no possibility in reality for omniscience, the infinite is unreal, but these types of inner contradictions cause me little consternation as my argument against region, all religion is far more fundamental. I reject wholesale the epistemological view that faith is a valid form of knowledge.
 

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That's a 40 minute video - could you perhaps summarize it in a sentence or two for those of us who regard prayer as ineffectual and a waste of time? TIA.
The dude is a philosopher, check out some of his books and his journey. He is actually a very good speaker. Found more youtubes also.
But you know me and words...
One sentence? Relationship with Christ is personal and an inner sanctom. One that once you make an effort to access and visit constantly, you just know.
 
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deec77

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Here’s my view .... I believe something greater then me exists... I have no animosity towards those who find religion as a moral compass or those who don’t. Just my feelings and I don’t judge those who look at life differently. I truly don’t understand the hate, as a psychologist it’s mind boggling live and let live is my philosophy people are both good and bad.....regardless of their views on either subject. I understand both arguments and neither is inherently awful. I’m just fine with marrying whomever your like it has little to do with me. I draw the line with teaching “transgender” philosophy to children and allowing sexual mutilation on children or giving them hormones before puberty. I understand transsexuals and I’m perfectly fine with their choices. Gender is a social norm....ie feminine or masculine qualities nothing more nothing less... Nothing to do with religion..

~Dee~
 

tehmackdaddy

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Do Christians believe a person should have the freedom to marry anyone they choose?
That's a bigger question than I think you realize.

However, I fail to see how Christianity's stance on marriage is evidence of "exert[ing] complete control over their adherents, mind and body."

Christianity having rules is not exerting control anymore than the government having laws stating you can't murder your neighbor, as an example (which Christianity also says is wrong).

I mean, other than the government will arrest you and take away your freedoms for breaking its rules whereas "Christianity" will do...?
 

TipRoast

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That's a bigger question than I think you realize.

However, I fail to see how Christianity's stance on marriage is evidence of "exert[ing] complete control over their adherents, mind and body."

Christianity having rules is not exerting control anymore than the government having laws stating you can't murder your neighbor, as an example (which Christianity also says is wrong).

I mean, other than the government will arrest you and take away your freedoms for breaking its rules whereas "Christianity" will do...?
It may be a bigger question than I realize, but how would you know that?

Apparently it's also a question you don't want to address.
 

tehmackdaddy

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It may be a bigger question than I realize, but how would you know that?

Apparently it's also a question you don't want to address.
I am happy to address the question, as I already did, in part.

And I admit I don't know what you know. I made a supposition, as you did about Christianity.

What I will not do, however, is be told what Christianity is by someone who doesn't understand Christianity or the nature of Christian freedom.

If you'd like to have a discussion about Christianity, then at least have the decency to read up on the matter.

Maybe start with Galatians. It's a short letter.

Read that, then we can start.
 

TipRoast

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I am happy to address the question, as I already did, in part.

And I admit I don't know what you know. I made a supposition, as you did about Christianity.

What I will not do, however, is be told what Christianity is by someone who doesn't understand Christianity or the nature of Christian freedom.

If you'd like to have a discussion about Christianity, then at least have the decency to read up on the matter.

Maybe start with Galatians. It's a short letter.

Read that, then we can start.
I was expecting a yes or no response to my question. I went back and looked at what you provided for a reply, and I still can't discern anything that looks like either a yes or a no.
 

tehmackdaddy

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I was expecting a yes or no response to my question. I went back and looked at what you provided for a reply, and I still can't discern anything that looks like either a yes or a no.
That's because the question you asked has an answer that is larger than "yes" or "no."

For example, your question was, "Do Christians believe a person should have the freedom to marry anyone they choose?"

Do you mean men marrying men and women marrying women?

Do you mean a person currently of legal age to make such a decision marrying someone who is not of age to make the same decision?

Do you mean marrying a goat?

When you ask what you think is a simple question, you are asking more than you think and supposing your current view of social norms is not only accepted by all, but fundamentally correct.

Hence my response that it is a bigger question than you realize.

I will stop with the suppositions and allow you to speak for yourself.

Read that letter to the Galatians, though. It's a good starting point.
 
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