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johnlocke

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I am happy to address the question, as I already did, in part.

And I admit I don't know what you know. I made a supposition, as you did about Christianity.

What I will not do, however, is be told what Christianity is by someone who doesn't understand Christianity or the nature of Christian freedom.

If you'd like to have a discussion about Christianity, then at least have the decency to read up on the matter.

Maybe start with Galatians. It's a short letter.

Read that, then we can start.

This has piqued my interest. :)

Could you lay out what you mean by Christian freedom and a solid defense of the principles involved?

I only ask because I have never heard that argument put forth, I don't think. And I fully think just about all religions by their nature are instruments of control.

I'd be very interested in this topic.
 

TipRoast

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That's because the question you asked has an answer that is larger than "yes" or "no."

For example, your question was, "Do Christians believe a person should have the freedom to marry anyone they choose?"

Do you mean men marrying men and women marrying women?

Do you mean a person currently of legal age to make such a decision marrying someone who is not of age to make the same decision?

Do you mean marrying a goat?

When you ask what you think is a simple question, you are asking more than you think and supposing your current view of social norms is not only accepted by all, but fundamentally correct.

Hence my response that it is a bigger question than you realize.

I will stop with the suppositions and allow you to speak for yourself.

Read that letter to the Galatians, though. It's a good starting point.

Interesting use of language there: "allow you to speak for yourself." Even in our informal discourse, you're using the vocabulary of control.

And please stop with the condescension - I was aware of the marriage permutations you pointed out, and some that you didn't (polygyny, polyandry, and other forms of group marriage).

Although I must admit I hadn't considered beastiality, perhaps because I'm not a Christian. :)
 

foobahl

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Interesting use of language there: "allow you to speak for yourself." Even in our informal discourse, you're using the vocabulary of control.

And please stop with the condescension - I was aware of the marriage permutations you pointed out, and some that you didn't (polygyny, polyandry, and other forms of group marriage).

Although I must admit I hadn't considered beastiality, perhaps because I'm not a Christian. :)
View: https://youtu.be/gyshr1hhv3E
 

tehmackdaddy

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Interesting use of language there: "allow you to speak for yourself." Even in our informal discourse, you're using the vocabulary of control.

And please stop with the condescension - I was aware of the marriage permutations you pointed out, and some that you didn't (polygyny, polyandry, and other forms of group marriage).

Although I must admit I hadn't considered beastiality, perhaps because I'm not a Christian. :)
My apologies as there was no condescension intended. I was simply responding to your question and pointing out I wouldn't infer any more information.

Please don't tell me there's a goat you fancy. :evil:
 

TipRoast

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My apologies as there was no condescension intended. I was simply responding to your question and pointing out I wouldn't infer any more information.

Please don't tell me there's a goat you fancy. :evil:

I don't have a belief in any supernatural entities, so if there's anyone involved in the discussion who thinks there's an immortal being who takes on the aspect of the aforementioned creature, it's likely to be someone of the Christian persuasion.

Oh, and thank you for the apology - it's been a long, rainy, miserable day here, and sometimes things that shouldn't rankle get the best of me.
 

tehmackdaddy

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This has piqued my interest. :)

Could you lay out what you mean by Christian freedom and a solid defense of the principles involved?

I only ask because I have never heard that argument put forth, I don't think. And I fully think just about all religions by their nature are instruments of control.

I'd be very interested in this topic.
Are you interested enough to read the book of Galatians first?

(It isn't a magical string of words I am attempting to trick you into reading.)

I will say: I don't answer to a person or a people or a Pope. There is no person lording over me nor is there any organization of people benefiting from any form of submission to them.

It used very un-cult-like in that regard.
 

tehmackdaddy

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I don't have a belief in any supernatural entities, so if there's anyone involved in the discussion who thinks there's an immortal being who takes on the aspect of the aforementioned creature, it's likely to be someone of the Christian persuasion.
If there's an immortal being who takes on the aspect of the aforementioned creature, he wouldn't be looking to marry any of us. :thumb:
 

johnlocke

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Are you interested enough to read the book of Galatians first?

(It isn't a magical string of words I am attempting to trick you into reading.)

I will say: I don't answer to a person or a people or a Pope. There is no person lording over me nor is there any organization of people benefiting from any form of submission to them.

It used very un-cult-like in that regard.

I am quite well versed in the bible. Have read it cover to cover 4 times. Researched and studied it in-depth and its history. First time for a book report in 9th grade as I had already read everything on the HS reading list and was given my choice on what to work on.

I have theologian friends, pastors, priests, and epically devoted Christians in my life. I have had deep level conservations with them for all my life because I think the concept of faith and therefore any religion is the destruction of the mind and if implemented politically the death of rights and will be the downfall of this nation after the left has weakened it with there anti-value nihilism.

I respect you a great deal but I found that comment a bit condescending to begin a fascinating conversation. I hope that is not indicative of how this goes. :)
 

tehmackdaddy

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Oh, and thank you for the apology - it's been a long, rainy, miserable day here, and sometimes things that shouldn't rankle get the best of me.
Thank you.

I have to get a friggin COVID test later this morning or I'm not allowed to go back to the office.

Although, with all the phone calls and emails I sent, they may just let me back to get rid of the annoyance.

Fever, chills, body-aches, and coughing be damned! These people know I will work even even if I'm sick, but there are new procedures! :rolleyes1:
 

tehmackdaddy

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I am quite well versed in the bible. Have read it cover to cover 4 times. Researched and studied it in-depth and its history. First time for a book report in 9th grade as I had already read everything on the HS reading list and was given my choice on what to work on.

I have theologian friends, pastors, priests, and epically devoted Christians in my life. I have had deep level conservations with them for all my life because I think the concept of faith and therefore any religion is the destruction of the mind and if implemented politically the death of rights and will be the downfall of this nation after the left has weakened it with there anti-value nihilism.

I respect you a great deal but I found that comment a bit condescending to begin a fascinating conversation. I hope that is not indicative of how this goes. :)
Again, I don't mean to sound condescending.

(I deleted what I wrote. Those responsible for sacking the people who have just been sacked, have been sacked.)

It may be circumstantial, but did the topic of Christian freedom ever come up with the theologians, pastors, priests, and Christian friends you spoke with?
 

johnlocke

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Again, I don't mean to sound condescending.

(I deleted what I wrote. Those responsible for sacking the people who have just been sacked, have been sacked.)

It may be circumstantial, but did the topic of Christian freedom ever come up with the theologians, pastors, priests, and Christian friends you spoke with?


All good, my friend. :)

Not really, not at least in those terms.

I don't think I even understand the concept as I find it to be a contraction in terms.

Any chance you could lay out the principles that support the assertion that Christianity is about freedom? Christian freedom means what? (metaphysics) How do you know it? (epistemology) Given these conclusions how ought one act? (Ethics) And what form of government is conssistent with these underlying principles? (politics, which is the 4th level in the philosophical hierarchy)

I really am fascinated with this topic.
 
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Again, I don't mean to sound condescending.

(I deleted what I wrote. Those responsible for sacking the people who have just been sacked, have been sacked.)

It may be circumstantial, but did the topic of Christian freedom ever come up with the theologians, pastors, priests, and Christian friends you spoke with?
In case you missed, a thread for you from yesterday:

 

tehmackdaddy

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All good, my friend. :)

Not really, not at least in those terms.

I don't think I even understand the concept as I find it to be a contraction in terms.

Any chance you could lay out the principles that support the assertion that Christianity is about freedom? Christian freedom means what? (metaphysics) How do you know it? (epistemology) Given these conclusions how ought one act? (Ethics) And what form of government is conssistent with these underlying principles? (politics, which is the 4th level in the philosophical hierarchy)

I really am fascinated with this topic.
The summarized version is freedom FROM sin, not freedom TO sin.

That freedom comes with responsibility, similar to how it does in a political framework.

Churches certainly have rules that are Biblically-based (don't murder, commit adultery, etc.) and there are Biblically-based procedures on how to handle those situations.

However, many churches have made rules that explicitly defy The Bible. As examples, churches that say drinking alcohol is forbidden or the "Footloose" church that banned dancing.

This is called "legalism" and is sternly warned against in Scripture. It is the thought that a person can EARN their way into heaven by how pious they act. Jesus scolded the Pharisees for this and spoke about it in the parable of the lost son.

(The flip side of that is called "license," but that is not currently at issue...yet.)

While I understand the slippery slope of alcohol and horny teenagers dancing closely together, a church outright banning these activities is explicitly un-Biblical and un-Christian.

The responsibility part comes in the following example: you may have no problem with drinking alcohol and it is therefore not sinful for you to do so. But if you are out at a restaurant eating with a friend who is an alcoholic, it would be problematic to drink in their company, for if you love that person, why would you engage in behavior that might tempt them and cause them to stumble?

As to what Christians can and cannot do, Christ summed it up as, "'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Paul scolded the Galatians in his letter to them for their unnecessary rules, which is why I asked you (and anyone else) to read it. No matter how many times a person has read that book, it is specifically germane to this discussion, is a short read, and the refresher would serve as a common starting ground for expounding on this topic.
 

johnlocke

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The summarized version is freedom FROM sin, not freedom TO sin.

That freedom comes with responsibility, similar to how it does in a political framework.

Churches certainly have rules that are Biblically-based (don't murder, commit adultery, etc.) and there are Biblically-based procedures on how to handle those situations.

However, many churches have made rules that explicitly defy The Bible. As examples, churches that say drinking alcohol is forbidden or the "Footloose" church that banned dancing.

This is called "legalism" and is sternly warned against in Scripture. It is the thought that a person can EARN their way into heaven by how pious they act. Jesus scolded the Pharisees for this and spoke about it in the parable of the lost son.

(The flip side of that is called "license," but that is not currently at issue...yet.)

While I understand the slippery slope of alcohol and horny teenagers dancing closely together, a church outright banning these activities is explicitly un-Biblical and un-Christian.

The responsibility part comes in the following example: you may have no problem with drinking alcohol and it is therefore not sinful for you to do so. But if you are out at a restaurant eating with a friend who is an alcoholic, it would be problematic to drink in their company, for if you love that person, why would you engage in behavior that might tempt them and cause them to stumble?

As to what Christians can and cannot do, Christ summed it up as, "'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Paul scolded the Galatians in his letter to them for their unnecessary rules, which is why I asked you (and anyone else) to read it. No matter how many times a person has read that book, it is specifically germane to this discussion, is a short read, and the refresher would serve as a common starting ground for expounding on this topic.

Thank you very much. That was quite well stated.

I take issue with the base, in that I don't think the Bible is word of God and that faith is wholly destructive among other things but I will think on this.

Headed down to river for some r&r so I will let it germinate and get back later.

Than you again.
 

deec77

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Quite frankly there are no yes or no answers in life’s toughest questions just saying.....
Wish it was that simple but it’s not. I’m not really religious my mother asked why I was marring a heathen lol


~Dee~
 
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deec77

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What are life's toughest questions?

What’s for dinner? :coffee:

Since no 2 of us are completely alike and everyone’s life experience is different then everyone’s toughest questions would differ.

I spent most of may adult life working on understanding how could and why would people do what they do to others . So my question is why?

If there weren’t tough questions in life, we’d have all the answers wouldn’t we?

~Dee~
 
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