TB12 and Elixir Guerrero - how comfortable are you with his honesty?

[mikiemo83]

Yeah there is that.

It seems, the more "connected" we've become the more isolated we start to feel. Opiates are a drug of dispair. They're painkillers in every sense of the word. They treat physical pain, but they also suppress emotional pain.

Why are suicide rates skyrocketting? Why are more and more people choosing to spend their days zoning out on opiates. Why are rates of depression through the roof?

There's no single smoking gun answer (there rarely is) but human beings are social animals. The worst thing you can do to us is isolate us from other people. That's why even in prison, surrounded by rapists and murderers, solitary is considered one of the harshest punishments you can hand out.

More and more the interactions we have with other humans are done through screens. We're interacting with each other but we're not connecting with each other. That breeds lonliness and dispair.

And opiates take that away. Temporarily at least.

It can be as simple as people are now loners, remotely working from home in isolation.

Followed up with getting on-line and seeing others pretending to be living the life you want.

Next playing on-line games with someone in Guam and not making any sense to each other based on a language barrier.

you wake up and realize if I didn't go get a coffee every day I could go weeks without talking to a person face to face.

 

[PatsFan09]

Just justify to me why when there is such a pandemic spread of opioid addiction your friends and relatives are so prone to keep prescribing, add jet fuel to the problem.



You do acknowledge there is a massive prescription opioid problem in this country I presume?

You still haven’t answered the question.
Where’s the evidence?

And in case this is needed, post hoc propter hoc fallacy.


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[Dwight Schrute]

You still haven’t answered the question.
Where’s the evidence?

And in case this is needed, post hoc propter hoc fallacy.


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I don’t have evidence.

I don’t have access to their legit books or fake books.

But knowing how ruthlessly addictive the products are and how bad the epidemic is why do they not only continue to prescribe but in my case twice and mikies multiple times encourage/push? Even in a situation like mikies where his wife would’ve suffered major consequences?

 

[chevss454]

Yeah, this is a pretty big one here chev.

The stories are COUNTLESS of people who had completely normal lives, get a minor injury or surgery or back pain, and get a script or 2 of Oxy. Once the script runs out and the Dr won’t prescribe they do some digging, maybe buy some on the street, and then find heroin.

The family is then deciding between coffin or cremation.

My sister is a nurse pretty high up the food chain for a prominent substance abuse facility on the South Shore. I don’t know if statistics still hold but for quite a long time SE MA was the heroin overdose/addiction capital of the US. Not some slum urban blight metro crap hole you’d say yeah that figures, Boston South including picturesque Cape Cod and the Islands.

Just a pure coincidence this same area happens to have some of the best medical facilities and a countless number of practices and offices. People nation wide and well to do in other countries come to this neck of the wood for treatment.

The proliferation of product is OBSCENE. The problems are known by laypeople. And yet the dispensary’s continue to pump them out.

If they knew the “treatment” caused cancer would they continue to pump them out?

They DO KNOW the “solution” is the expressway to addiction. Why do they continue to support the problem?


The government and big pharma are the lead culprits in the problem. Quite simply there should be mandates in place for how much product is allowed to be produced.

.

Hey Dwight, you're blaming the wrong people if you're blaming doctors. Go ask your sister if it's doctors getting these young people addicted or if it's the drug seller on the street. I gave you 4 links to where the drugs come from for the street but you still want to blame doctors. Bull shit.



If your sister is so high on the food chain of substance abuse facilities, ask her why these licensed facilities are still feeding methadone to addicts for years and years instead of weaning them off the drug slowly as they are mandated to do. I know why and I have first hand knowledge about it. It's guaranteed government $$$$$ and it's a goldmine for these substance abuse facilities.



I already answered why physicians write narcotic prescriptions - opioids control pain like NO OTHER DRUG available. Plain and simple. Doctors know how long it takes for the most sensitive of us to become addicted. Again, it's risk vs reward. For severe pain, no matter what kind, nothing takes the place of opioids. I'm not saying mistakes aren't made by doctors who don't read patient histories closely enough. That happens but it's not as often as you make it out to be. Read some of those links I gave you. Educate yourself bc you sound ignorant on the subject.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Hey Dwight, you're blaming the wrong people if you're blaming doctors. Go ask your sister if it's doctors getting these young people addicted or if it's the drug seller on the street. I gave you 4 links to where the drugs come from for the street but you still want to blame doctors. Bull shit.



If your sister is so high on the food chain of substance abuse facilities, ask her why these licensed facilities are still feeding methadone to addicts for years and years instead of weaning them off the drug slowly as they are mandated to do. I know why and I have first hand knowledge about it. It's guaranteed government $$$$$ and it's a goldmine for these substance abuse facilities.



I already answered why physicians write narcotic prescriptions - opioids control pain like NO OTHER DRUG available. Plain and simple. Doctors know how long it takes for the most sensitive of us to become addicted. Again, it's risk vs reward. For severe pain, no matter what kind, nothing takes the place of opioids. I'm not saying mistakes aren't made by doctors who don't read patient histories closely enough. That happens but it's not as often as you make it out to be. Read some of those links I gave you. Educate yourself bc you sound ignorant on the subject.

No shit it ends up from the street. And usually migrated to heroin.
Because the price of Oxy becomes unbearable but the monkey gets too big to stop. So it’s on to cheaper, stronger street heroin coupled with the even more dangerous fentonol.

But the introduction comes from the all too willing Drs.

There’s other alternatives.

Most patients are far too trusting and just go with what’s recommended.

The bottom line is there’s a MASSIVE problem. There are many guilty parties. To let one sect off because you have a friend or relative is ridiculous imo.

And to have regular back and forth discussion with different thoughts and takes was what I thought an awesome internet forum was precisely existent for, not to put on you teaching shoes and Mr Rogers sweater and come off like some pretentious prick.

I’m out.

 

[Big/Sky/Fly]

My mom, dad, a brother and 2 sisters are all physicians in private practice who have never been offered a kickback. There are a lot of problems with Big Pharma but I can't agree with you on this one, BSF. It's unethical for a physician to accept a kickback from a drug company and doing so will get a physician's license to practice revoked.

Those of you who take 800 mg of acetaminophen at a time might want to brush up on the side effects of the drug. I would never. Tylenol is not the innocent drug many think it to be. The safest course would be to start with a low dose (200 mg) and titrate upward from there until it works for you.

All drugs have an ugly side; the doctor's responsibility is to weigh the good against the bad to get the desired effect.

Narcotics control pain better than any other known drug with the fewest side effects OTHER THAN addiction. That's why doctors script them. They work. It's irresponsible to blame ethical doctors for getting people addicted. They are careful about the amount of drug prescribed ALWAYS.

Narcotics leak into the wrong hands a lot of different ways & while there are plenty of unethical doctors who write too many scripts too easily, they can't possibly fulfill the huge demand.

Drug diversion is huge business for the underworld. It's the drug wholesalers/distributors/pharmacies who should get the blame for the narcotics problem we have. If you want to know how the opioid epidemic got so out of control, it’s hard to do better than this statistic: Between 2006 and 2016, out-of-state drug companies shipped nearly 21 million opioid painkillers to two pharmacies in Williamson, West Virginia, population 2,900. That comes from a report by Eric Eyre at the Charleston Gazette-Mail, citing a new congressional investigation into massive shipments of the opioid painkillers oxycodone and hydrocodone in West Virginia by drug wholesalers Miami-Luken and H.D. Smith. In addition, the small town of Kermit, WVirginia has a population of 392, but a single pharmacy there received 9 million hydrocodone pills over two years from out-of-state drug companies. Now you can see where the narcotics come from.


Blaming doctors for the narcotics problem is just plain WRONG.



The opioid epidemic: America's deadliest drug overdose crisis

• A new study shows stigma is hurting our response to the opioid epidemic
• Drug companies shipped nearly 21 million opioid painkillers to a town with 2,900 people
• This is how easy it is to order deadly opioids over the internet

View all 197 stories

The blame goes way beyond the bad doctors...I agree.

The "war on drugs" is a vast swath.

America is in Afghanistan for a reason...

 

[Big/Sky/Fly]

https://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/is-your-doctor-getting-drug-kickbacks/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/...or-is-being-paid-by-pharmaceutical-companies/

https://clark.com/insurance/doctor-being-paid-steer-you-certain-drugs/

http://www.iflscience.com/health-an...pharma-drug-companies-are-paying-your-doctor/

https://www.propublica.org/article/...-cash-tend-to-prescribe-more-brand-name-drugs

https://www.whistleblowerattorneys.com/blog/big-pharma-greed/

...and a bazillion more if you want.

 

[Big/Sky/Fly]

No shit it ends up from the street. And usually migrated to heroin.
Because the price of Oxy becomes unbearable but the monkey gets too big to stop. So it’s on to cheaper, stronger street heroin coupled with the even more dangerous fentonol.

But the introduction comes from the all too willing Drs.

There’s other alternatives.

Most patients are far too trusting and just go with what’s recommended.

The bottom line is there’s a MASSIVE problem. There are many guilty parties. To let one sect off because you have a friend or relative is ridiculous imo.

And to have regular back and forth discussion with different thoughts and takes was what I thought an awesome internet forum was precisely existent for, not to put on you teaching shoes and Mr Rogers sweater and come off like some pretentious prick.

I’m out.

There are morally corrupt doctors out there. But, you're right that big pharma corporations are the much bigger problem.

Big pharma is a much bigger threat to us than guns ever will be.

The whole system sucks. It will never be fixed either.

 

[Big/Sky/Fly]

I mean, I'm not totalling blaming doctors, but if you write a bunch of prescriptions for very addictive drugs you can't act surprised when a bunch of people become addicted. Especially when there are very effective non addictive alternatives readilly available.

It's like saying that all cops are ethical...lmao. Nope.

I went to one doctor, and he asked me if I wanted this, that or something brand new (opiate wise).

I went to a different one, and he asked me if I wanted to get a green card for medical mary.

So, not all doctors are good. Not all doctors are bad. It's probably somewhere in the middle. They did swear to an oath though.

 

[bideau]

If your sister is so high on the food chain of substance abuse facilities, ask her why these licensed facilities are still feeding methadone to addicts for years and years instead of weaning them off the drug slowly as they are mandated to do. I know why and I have first hand knowledge about it. It's guaranteed government $$$$$ and it's a goldmine for these substance abuse facilities.

You hit a big hot button with my wife. She started a substance abuse counseling agency 25 years ago and she's still keeping the place running. If you want to set her off, mention methadone. She hates it and that's putting it nicely. Early in her career, she took a job at a methadone facility and lasted just a few months. She was disgusted by how the place was run, exactly as you describe. Ironically, there's a methadone clinic directly across the street from her office. It's quite a sight to see the addicts line up while the drug dealers stand off to the side waiting to convince them to buy the stronger stuff. Many of them end up at her agency either voluntarily or court mandated.

She has seen many things from deeply sad to just pathetic. And every morning she gets back in the car to do it all over again. But every success story makes it worthwhile for her.

Keep preaching chevss.

 

[mikiemo83]

You hit a big hot button with my wife. She started a substance abuse counseling agency 25 years ago and she's still keeping the place running. If you want to set her off, mention methadone. She hates it and that's putting it nicely. Early in her career, she took a job at a methadone facility and lasted just a few months. She was disgusted by how the place was run, exactly as you describe. Ironically, there's a methadone clinic directly across the street from her office. It's quite a sight to see the addicts line up while the drug dealers stand off to the side waiting to convince them to buy the stronger stuff. Many of them end up at her agency either voluntarily or court mandated.

She has seen many things from deeply sad to just pathetic. And every morning she gets back in the car to do it all over again. But every success story makes it worthwhile for her.

Keep preaching chevss.

Methadone, cheeked and sold

imagine buying something someone hid under their tongue.

 

[PatsFan09]

I don’t have evidence.



I don’t have access to their legit books or fake books.



But knowing how ruthlessly addictive the products are and how bad the epidemic is why do they not only continue to prescribe but in my case twice and mikies multiple times encourage/push? Even in a situation like mikies where his wife would’ve suffered major consequences?

So you’re making up lies then. Fair enough.

If you have no evidence , why make such claims? Besides urban legend and other such fallacies.


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[PatsFan09]

No shit it ends up from the street. And usually migrated to heroin.

Because the price of Oxy becomes unbearable but the monkey gets too big to stop. So it’s on to cheaper, stronger street heroin coupled with the even more dangerous fentonol.



But the introduction comes from the all too willing Drs.



There’s other alternatives.



Most patients are far too trusting and just go with what’s recommended.



The bottom line is there’s a MASSIVE problem. There are many guilty parties. To let one sect off because you have a friend or relative is ridiculous imo.



And to have regular back and forth discussion with different thoughts and takes was what I thought an awesome internet forum was precisely existent for, not to put on you teaching shoes and Mr Rogers sweater and come off like some pretentious prick.



I’m out.

No, the issue is that you made claims that you can’t/won’t back up. That’s BS. Most doctors are very ethical people; show us these alternatives when people are having surgeries and need intense pain killers.


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[Jaric]

No, the issue is that you made claims that you can’t/won’t back up. That’s BS. Most doctors are very ethical people; show us these alternatives when people are having surgeries and need intense pain killers.


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Three words. See. Bee. Dee.

wuv

 

[PatsFan09]

Three words. See. Bee. Dee.



wuv

Uh, no. CBD definitely has its uses, but as a post-surgery painkiller? Not yet.


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[Jaric]

Uh, no. CBD definitely has its uses, but as a post-surgery painkiller? Not yet.


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I'll concede that for only the most severe operations and burn victims. Everything else is probably way better served with CBD over an opiate.

I know you're skeptical about the utility of weed but I'm telling you, CBD is a much better way to deal with all but the most extreme pain.

 

[chevss454]

No shit it ends up from the street. And usually migrated to heroin.
Because the price of Oxy becomes unbearable but the monkey gets too big to stop. So it’s on to cheaper, stronger street heroin coupled with the even more dangerous fentonol.

But the introduction comes from the all too willing Drs.

There’s other alternatives.

Most patients are far too trusting and just go with what’s recommended.

The bottom line is there’s a MASSIVE problem. There are many guilty parties. To let one sect off because you have a friend or relative is ridiculous imo.

And to have regular back and forth discussion with different thoughts and takes was what I thought an awesome internet forum was precisely existent for, not to put on you teaching shoes and Mr Rogers sweater and come off like some pretentious prick.

I’m out.

The problem isn't doctors. A few bad eggs can't supply the huge demand narcotics have become. These drugs are going straight to the street and that's how the overwhelming number of new addicts are born. Doctors get no extra money from prescribing narcotics. There's no incentive. Pharmacists on the other hand can order 1000 tablets of 20mg oxy for $75 and sell them to a street urchin for $30/tablet cash. That pharmacist just made $30K cash tax free and has any number of ways to explain the inventory reduction until it gets way out of hand.



I had someone use my DEA number to open an account with a wholesaler. She ordered over 20k tabs in a 10 month period. She used her credit card in her name to pay for the drugs. That's how easy it is to do. The 2 wholesalers she used didn't give a shit bc they had a DEA that made it legal but they knew. After 10 months of this I got paid a visit by the DEA and the State Police who never suspected me but they did next to nothing to find out the culprit. Finally I called the wholesalers who shipped the drug and found out her name. I passed that info along to the DEA agent who didn't have a clue bc she was still waiting for a court order to make the wholesaler tell all. This girl got caught but was never tried in court so she got off scott free after pocketing over $250K. The wholesalers got off too bc they had a valid DEA number to protect them.



That's how drugs get on the street. It's the street urchins who make new addicts. They give away pills and within 3-4 weeks they have a new customer. Doctors are small potatoes compared to the drug diversion market.



"There’s other alternatives."
No there aren't. Ask somebody with terminal cancer if ibuprofen does it for them. Ask someone who just had a major surgical procedure if tylenol touches their pain. Ditto joint replacement, ACL, fracture repair or burn victims. There are NO other alternatives when the pain is severe. A doc writing a script for a 10 day supply of hydrocodone is doing his/her sworn obligation to control pain & that 10 day supply is NOT creating an addict.



"To let one sect off because you have a friend or relative is ridiculous imo."
It has nothing to do with defending my parents or siblings. But I do know how it works and for anyone to say doctors are the cause of the narc epidemic is irresponsible and ignorant of the real cause. Doctors risk everything by prescribing illegally and they make far too much money for the risk to be worthwhile. Prescriptions are monitored and tracked for controlled substances - it's automatically logged at the Drug Enforcement Agency. Those few who do it are busted quickly and get their license revoked in short order by the state board of medicine - no court trial needed. Doctors can't order narcs from wholesalers like pharmacists can. You're wrong, DS. Read and learn.

 

[mikiemo83]

I am seeing both sides in this.

I see Dwight’s point that a lot of the people we know, white guy about 40-50 in age, start with an injury. The doctor doesn’t make the addict, the addict is within the person lurking - I believe it is 75% your genes. Patients are given the meds because what alternative is there for pain? My issue is there should be a database of who is getting what.

I know of people who travel a lot to Florida, pick up a boat load of them, by script, and ring them up. If we want a national data base for guns, why not pain meds?


At the same time it is the big pharma out of control. They don’t give two shits who gets what. Like chef posted a lot of crap is traveling to certain areas yet it is not stopped. Big pharma knew Chev was not buying 20k pills a month, it they didn’t care. It was “legal” according to the paperwork despite common sense telling you otherwise.

Yes drugs are out of control and kids are deep into them, it is scary but a lot of adults are too. And they have multiple doctors to hit up for the stuff,

 

[Patriots71]

Dan Lifshatz
‏


@DanLifshatz
Jun 11

More
Well well well.....

@tomecurran on @adamjones985 just said Bill send clients to Alex Guerrero, especially for soft tissue issues

This is uhh...kinda major news

 

[PatsFan09]

I'll concede that for only the most severe operations and burn victims. Everything else is probably way better served with CBD over an opiate.



I know you're skeptical about the utility of weed but I'm telling you, CBD is a much better way to deal with all but the most extreme pain.

I’m 100% on board. I’m just referring to extreme pain post-op.


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