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aloyouis

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I realize that "the" Saudis funded Bin Laden, but which ones? Am I supposed to lump them all together and declare them all terrorists? Are PGA tour players
supposed to turn down massive amounts of cash to play based on some specious moral high ground? I guess this means that I'm responsible for slavery and dropping
atomic bombs on Japan and nobody from another country should have anything to do with me.

I have mixed feelings about the LIV tour, but I'm intrigued by the team concept. I'm also somewhat amused by the PGA Tour clutching their pearls in righteous indignation.

The whole thing is Lawyers, Guns and Money now and the shit has hit the fan, but I don't know of a single legitimate connection between the Saudi golf folks and Bin Laden
and I wonder if the PGA weasels are trying to push that ludicrous notion in order to hold onto their Goose that lays the golden eggs.

If it means more variety for televised events and some interesting innovation then I'd be curious, but so far, aside from the huge prizes, the LIV tour looks like a rudderless
ship. Their introductory press conference was a fiasco that featured a troublesome reporter getting kicked out by bouncers.

Seems like fun and I really only care about watching the 3 majors not controlled by the PGA. I feel no loyalty for them.

It is far more than just 9/11. You are a guy paying attention. You know this.

Pearl clutching? Maybe. But I like the tradition. Like Super Bowls and stuff.

Tradition destroying? Yes. Simply due to having the $.

What if the Saudis decided they wanted football? What if they started buying players off of the NFL teams - would Brady take the 140 million like Dustin Johnson? Don’t kid yourself. Unlike the AFL - because now the game will be 3 quarters long and 2 hand touch. 7 on 7 and 5 downs to maximize the number of 78 to 75 scores of games.

There will be only 1 owner of all the teams - the Saudis and every player gets paid like an all pro regardless of performance. Saudi football using the Saudi LIV golf rules.

So am I clutching pearls? I don’t think so. I don’t like the idea of the Saudis (or anyone) buying the traditions built over centuries and ripping them up just because a lot of dinosaurs died under their sand dunes.
 

Hawg73

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It is far more than just 9/11. You are a guy paying attention. You know this.

Pearl clutching? Maybe. But I like the tradition. Like Super Bowls and stuff.

Tradition destroying? Yes. Simply due to having the $.

What if the Saudis decided they wanted football? What if they started buying players off of the NFL teams - would Brady take the 140 million like Dustin Johnson? Don’t kid yourself. Unlike the AFL - because now the game will be 3 quarters long and 2 hand touch. 7 on 7 and 5 downs to maximize the number of 78 to 75 scores of games.

There will be only 1 owner of all the teams - the Saudis and every player gets paid like an all pro regardless of performance. Saudi football using the Saudi LIV golf rules.

So am I clutching pearls? I don’t think so. I don’t like the idea of the Saudis (or anyone) buying the traditions built over centuries and ripping them up just because a lot of dinosaurs died under their sand dunes.


Some solid points, and I did say I had mixed feelings for some of the same reasons.

Something about me likes to see powerful organizations squirm, but if I thought the Saudis could really pull it off and wreck the present tour
I'd have more negative feelings about all of it. I see it as a parallel to the old USFL situation. Deep pockets but ultimately it'll prove to be a shit
investment.

More likely there will be a lot of lawsuits and some sort of compromise will result and the PGA will have to pay the players more.
 

aloyouis

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Some solid points, and I did say I had mixed feelings for some of the same reasons.

Something about me likes to see powerful organizations squirm, but if I thought the Saudis could really pull it off and wreck the present tour
I'd have more negative feelings about all of it. I see it as a parallel to the old USFL situation. Deep pockets but ultimately it'll prove to be a shit
investment.

More likely there will be a lot of lawsuits and some sort of compromise will result and the PGA will have to pay the players more.
Yup. 100%.

Keep in mind though that the PGA doesn't pay the players directly. The sponsors of the tournaments do. Better compensation from the PGA would be in the form of benefits such as healthcare and retirement contributions. I DDG'd "Who owns the PGA?" and I found this response to be enlightening:

No one. “No one”, is the legal answer. That means the players do not own the PGA….

First off, the question itself does not specify which PGA, although the answer is the same. The PGA Tour? Or the PGA of America? As far as ownership goes, they both are owned by, “no one”.

How can this be??? Both organizations are non profits. They are both 501(c)(6) entities, which means they have no shareholders (owners), and they are tax exempt. It also means they can not legally operate in a manner that economically benefits any certain people (owners). So, given that both PGA entities operate with a LOT of incoming money (‘revenue’, or ‘sales’), then how does it work?

It works because both PGA entities have identified beneficiaries of their respective operations. According to non profit law, the income generated by the PGA must be distributed to beneficiaries, and not any other classification of person, such as employees or friends or shareholders, etc. Employees get a salary. The the PGA Tour exists in order to structure an environment in which professional golfers can have a decent living wage and living conditions. So, the PGA Tour’s beneficiaries are the players and suport organizations, such as tournament hosts, sponsors, and just a few others. So, PGA Tour income goes back out mostly to the players in the form of prize money, benefits, perks, Awards but some of it goes back out for affiliated organizations’ operations (tournament hosts, support organizations). The PGA of America also distributes its income to its beneficiaries, although its beneficiaries are far more numerous than THE TOUR’s. Nonetheless, both PGAs distribute substantially all of their incomes to their beneficiaries, thus maintaining non profit status.
 

Hawg73

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Yup. 100%.

Keep in mind though that the PGA doesn't pay the players directly. The sponsors of the tournaments do. Better compensation from the PGA would be in the form of benefits such as healthcare and retirement contributions. I DDG'd "Who owns the PGA?" and I found this response to be enlightening:

No one. “No one”, is the legal answer. That means the players do not own the PGA….

First off, the question itself does not specify which PGA, although the answer is the same. The PGA Tour? Or the PGA of America? As far as ownership goes, they both are owned by, “no one”.

How can this be??? Both organizations are non profits. They are both 501(c)(6) entities, which means they have no shareholders (owners), and they are tax exempt. It also means they can not legally operate in a manner that economically benefits any certain people (owners). So, given that both PGA entities operate with a LOT of incoming money (‘revenue’, or ‘sales’), then how does it work?


It works because both PGA entities have identified beneficiaries of their respective operations. According to non profit law, the income generated by the PGA must be distributed to beneficiaries, and not any other classification of person, such as employees or friends or shareholders, etc. Employees get a salary. The the PGA Tour exists in order to structure an environment in which professional golfers can have a decent living wage and living conditions. So, the PGA Tour’s beneficiaries are the players and suport organizations, such as tournament hosts, sponsors, and just a few others. So, PGA Tour income goes back out mostly to the players in the form of prize money, benefits, perks, Awards but some of it goes back out for affiliated organizations’ operations (tournament hosts, support organizations). The PGA of America also distributes its income to its beneficiaries, although its beneficiaries are far more numerous than THE TOUR’s. Nonetheless, both PGAs distribute substantially all of their incomes to their beneficiaries, thus maintaining non profit status.

Wow. Interesting stuff. I didn't know much of that and admit that I should've studied up on the entire thing before spouting off a largely uninformed opinion. I had assumed
that the PGA brass was swan-diving into bales of cash, but apparently that is incorrect on paper.

One thing I did hear is that part of the players agreement with the PGA is to play in a minimum of 14 tour events and, among other things, they are given contributions to an extremely
generous retirement account that is considered one of the better retirement deals in any industry and part of why the PGA feels like they are getting screwed by the ship-jumpers.

Anyhow, thanks for helping me be a little less ignorant of what is a fairly complex bit of business.

If you or anyone else reading is curious about the press conference given by the LIV tour, then please check out the link to an article my brother wrote on the topic:

 
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ParanoidPatriot

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I look at the LIV as the USFL in the 80s. I don't think it will last more than 3 or 4 years.
 

Darth Despot

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Regarding LIV.

First off, I don't want to hear anyone who has their own Gulfstream IV crying oppression. Phil and Greg and the rest of the boys want ALL the money. This whole thing is a cash grab. Guaranteed money for showing up, less work. OK I get what your up to but let's not make this out like it's a novel or noble way of making all golfers better off, or that it in any way improves the game. This is a quasi senior tour for a bunch of guys who are well past their prime. I'm not super interested. When's the last time Sergio Garcia contended,

I'll leave the Saudi shit aside, I have an opinion on that, but even if the money was put up by Mother Theresa I don't think this is in any way good for the game.

Like any sport, golf is built on a whole pyramid of development and LIV isn't interested in the next generation of players, at least not until they have become household names well beyond the golf world.

I see this as pretty much a replay of the European Super league the top 20 or so soccer clubs tried to get off the ground a couple of summers ago. A bunch of American owners were terrified of relegation and tried to set up a hedge around that remote risk. The fans revolted and they were forced to back off. My hope is golf fans will just ignore this and it will fade away.
 

aloyouis

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I watched about an hour of the US Open at lunch running on the tread mill. The USGA couldn't stop the LIV turkeys from playing if they qualified so the simply put them all in the same groups. I thought Lefty's reception in the first tee was better than I expected but no where near the normal raucous cheering.
 

Big/Sky/Fly

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I'm not a golfer. I tried once. I couldn't even hit the damn balls. I can swing really well though...when I whiff.
 

Alk

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Made a trip to the local golf shop over my lunch break because my friend had told me that they had a bunch of left handed clubs. I intended to just go look and see what they had but ended up walking out with a used Cobra King Speedzone driver. I'm really excited yet nervous to go get that thing for the first time on Sunday. The guy at the store was trying to explain all of the adjustments. I was like yeah just put it back the way it was. :ROFLMAO:
 
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ParanoidPatriot

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Made a trip to the local golf shop over my lunch break because my friend had told me that they had a bunch of left handed clubs. I intended to just go look and see what they had but ended up walking out with a used Cobra King Speedzone driver. I'm really excited yet nervous to go get that thing for the first time on Sunday. The guy at the store was trying to explain all of the adjustments. I was like yeah just put it back the way it was. :ROFLMAO:te
About 10 years ago I was thinking about getting a new set of clubs. A guy that I work with told me that he got a complete set of used clubs from an on line company named Global Golf. He showed me the clubs and they looked as good as new.
So, I went on the site and ordered a complete set of Taylor Made Burners, no driver or putter, which I was good with. When they arrived I was amazed by the condition. Just had to change the grips on a couple, which is nothing.
I paid a third of the cost of an identical new set.
A couple of years before, I went to Bob's and was looking at drivers. One rack had the drivers at 450. The next rack had what looked like identical clubs at 125. I asked the sales person what was the difference. He told me that the 450 clubs were this years model and the 125 was last years model. Other than that they were identical in every way. Guess which one I bought.
 

Alk

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About 10 years ago I was thinking about getting a new set of clubs. A guy that I work with told me that he got a complete set of used clubs from an on line company named Global Golf. He showed me the clubs and they looked as good as new.
So, I went on the site and ordered a complete set of Taylor Made Burners, no driver or putter, which I was good with. When they arrived I was amazed by the condition. Just had to change the grips on a couple, which is nothing.
I paid a third of the cost of an identical new set.
A couple of years before, I went to Bob's and was looking at drivers. One rack had the drivers at 450. The next rack had what looked like identical clubs at 125. I asked the sales person what was the difference. He told me that the 450 clubs were this years model and the 125 was last years model. Other than that they were identical in every way. Guess which one I bought.
I bought my set of irons years and years ago from some knockoff company. They were supposedly identical to the newest Ping irons that had come out that year. I think I paid maybe $200 for the whole set. Of course I've never been good enough to tell if they were really as good as they say they were or not.
 
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ParanoidPatriot

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I bought my set of irons years and years ago from some knockoff company. They were supposedly identical to the newest Ping irons that had come out that year. I think I paid maybe $200 for the whole set. Of course I've never been good enough to tell if they were really as good as they say they were or not.
This isn't a knockoff company. You can buy new brand name clubs. I don't know how competitive they are with other sites for new clubs.
 

Patriots44

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I'm a lefty golfer (actually right handed otherwise), and I'm also a scrub/hack, so I'm not paying for new clubs. I got lucky and found a King Cobra Radspeed XB driver used and in great shape for half (at least) off what the new drivers were going for. it too has various adjustments I'm not interested in diddling with and just had it set for 10.5 loft by guy in the store.
used at range a few time and on the course for the first time today. I like it. I'm not good enough to know the diff between various clubs and I'm just trying to be decent.
had three "legit" pars (all my shots, no mulligans) and a couple more where I took a second tee shot after first one went horribly awry. on other holes if it got out of hand I just stopped counting shots and used it as practice. two birdie chances I just missed so for me that's a good day/good time
had some great drives mixed in with the ugly ones so I'll assume that's on me and call the driver a win.

as for irons, I have this old set I bought at a mall sports chain in the late 80's or early 90's. I'm sure I didn't spend much $ and I'm now looking to start adding in some better/modern irons. being lefty the used bin is sparse, so I sprung for a good sand wedge (didn't have one) that I use in a lot of scenarios not involving sand. ordered an 8 iron in a set that reviews said was good for "high handicap" golfers (sounds like me!) just looked up my order.... Cobra LTDx irons
if I like it I'll get a 5 next. I make a few clubs work vs. picking a 6 v 7 v 8.... I just hit the 8 harder :)
 

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Didn’t realize how many lefties we have here, I love my Callaways they’re pre-owned as well. It’s hard enough to try and find lefty clubs for women to begin with sometimes I would have to go with men’s senior clubs I’ve always been happy with the choices Callaway provides for lefties. Whenever we would rent clubs they always seem to give me senior lefty Callaways so I could try them out before purchasing which I could never do otherwise, and still love them.


~Dee~
 

Hawg73

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I decided to buy myself a new set of clubs this season and asked for gift certificates for Christmas to that end. My reasoning was that I needed new grips for my entire set and that was going to cost me around 150 bucks and I wanted to go back to graphite shafts. I have never spent a lot of money on my clubs and had been playing with a decent set of used Callaway X22 irons along with an old Warbird 3 wood and a 50 buck used Taylor Made Driver (which I kill). I do own a classic old putter -- an original Scottie Cameron Newport. Mongrel clubs, but they worked OK. I just wanted more and was willing to splurge a bit.

I had never had a club fitting, but for 60 bucks I knew I'd be able to try all the clubs I was interested in and it was fun to experience the differences I felt and then see the actual results displayed graphically on a terminal. I tried a set of Pings and couldn't believe how high I hit them. Cloud scrapers, but the impact felt a little wonky. I settled on a set of Cleveland Launcher XLs PW-4 and added a 4 hybrid. I hit the 4 about the same distance as the Warbird 3 and way more consistently. They felt light and whippy and there was almost zero vibration on impact. I wasn't making real clean contact on my only live use of them so far, but it was clear that they are very forgiving on mishits and easier to get in the air. A couple of weeks, I'll have them dialed in and won't be able to
remember what it was like to not use them. Right now they feel a little strange, but I'm confident that I made the right decision.

The Launcher XLs are a little different than standard clubs, with some technical innovations (hollow core PW through 7 for feel, counterbalances at the grip end) and a lie adjustment. Turns out I'm 1 degree upright from off-the-shelf. Minor, but maybe I'll have more clean strikes. I spent around 1100 bucks, which the gift certificates cut to 750, but I just don't spend money on extravagances for myself and golf is one of my things. New bag, new clubs, new approach. Now I just have to find some time to get to a range where I can hit off grass and drain a couple of buckets.

One thing I've noticed about practicing at a range is when I'm done whatever was eating me coming in is completely gone. There is a catharsis in beating golf balls.
 

BostonTim

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I decided to buy myself a new set of clubs this season and asked for gift certificates for Christmas to that end. My reasoning was that I needed new grips for my entire set and that was going to cost me around 150 bucks and I wanted to go back to graphite shafts. I have never spent a lot of money on my clubs and had been playing with a decent set of used Callaway X22 irons along with an old Warbird 3 wood and a 50 buck used Taylor Made Driver (which I kill). I do own a classic old putter -- an original Scottie Cameron Newport. Mongrel clubs, but they worked OK. I just wanted more and was willing to splurge a bit.

I had never had a club fitting, but for 60 bucks I knew I'd be able to try all the clubs I was interested in and it was fun to experience the differences I felt and then see the actual results displayed graphically on a terminal. I tried a set of Pings and couldn't believe how high I hit them. Cloud scrapers, but the impact felt a little wonky. I settled on a set of Cleveland Launcher XLs PW-4 and added a 4 hybrid. I hit the 4 about the same distance as the Warbird 3 and way more consistently. They felt light and whippy and there was almost zero vibration on impact. I wasn't making real clean contact on my only live use of them so far, but it was clear that they are very forgiving on mishits and easier to get in the air. A couple of weeks, I'll have them dialed in and won't be able to
remember what it was like to not use them. Right now they feel a little strange, but I'm confident that I made the right decision.

The Launcher XLs are a little different than standard clubs, with some technical innovations (hollow core PW through 7 for feel, counterbalances at the grip end) and a lie adjustment. Turns out I'm 1 degree upright from off-the-shelf. Minor, but maybe I'll have more clean strikes. I spent around 1100 bucks, which the gift certificates cut to 750, but I just don't spend money on extravagances for myself and golf is one of my things. New bag, new clubs, new approach. Now I just have to find some time to get to a range where I can hit off grass and drain a couple of buckets.

One thing I've noticed about practicing at a range is when I'm done whatever was eating me coming in is completely gone. There is a catharsis in beating golf balls.


Sounds great!
But you're keeping the TM Driver, right? :coffee:

Cheer
 

aloyouis

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Didn’t realize how many lefties we have here, I love my Callaways they’re pre-owned as well. It’s hard enough to try and find lefty clubs for women to begin with sometimes I would have to go with men’s senior clubs I’ve always been happy with the choices Callaway provides for lefties. Whenever we would rent clubs they always seem to give me senior lefty Callaways so I could try them out before purchasing which I could never do otherwise, and still love them.


~Dee~
The announcers were talking yesterday on the US Open broadcast about how many professional players there are that are left-handed except for golf and that it’s a big advantage for a player to play golf on his “off“ hand.

You see this quite a bit in ice hockey as well.
 
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