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Flagg the Wanderer

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They were considered at least a marginal superbowl contender that year, yes. And just before the season the owner announced the move, and essentially everyone connected to that team was a lame duck, and the whole thing spiraled. What he did with the Browns was a very successful turnaround - that team was a total disaster when he came aboard, and there was no FA/Cap to bring parity. He built them better each year until they were a playoff team in year 4. Year 5 was a total mess for all sorts of reasons that more of a players' coach could probably have managed somewhat better, but they were pretty much exclusively non-football reasons.

I don't think anyone is belittling the impact Brady had on the organization. But you don't need to belittle the impact Belichick had in order to recognize Brady's amazing contributions. Brady was given the perfect situation and organization to succeed, and he more than took advantage of it. He absolutely became key to the culture and an exemplar of The Patriot Way, and he was a leader who had a way of making people into believers. Belichick did this, too, in his own way - through his carefully developed knack for putting players in a position for them to succeed and be better with him than they were without him. And we saw that time and time again with players coming in and outperforming what their history would suggest, then leave and not perform to that level with other teams.

Belichick did this with Brady, too. And Brady's unique personality and drive allowed him to leverage that into a culture that was Belichick's design, driven with unique talent by Brady, and yielded a period of success that is unique in professional sports.

If the Patriots come in under .500 again, maybe we have this discussion. But they went 1 game under 500 in a year when Brady and Brown were playing for Tampa but among the top hits to the Patriots' salary cap.
 

Mazz22

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They were considered at least a marginal superbowl contender that year, yes. And just before the season the owner announced the move, and essentially everyone connected to that team was a lame duck, and the whole thing spiraled. What he did with the Browns was a very successful turnaround - that team was a total disaster when he came aboard, and there was no FA/Cap to bring parity. He built them better each year until they were a playoff team in year 4. Year 5 was a total mess for all sorts of reasons that more of a players' coach could probably have managed somewhat better, but they were pretty much exclusively non-football reasons.

I don't think anyone is belittling the impact Brady had on the organization. But you don't need to belittle the impact Belichick had in order to recognize Brady's amazing contributions. Brady was given the perfect situation and organization to succeed, and he more than took advantage of it. He absolutely became key to the culture and an exemplar of The Patriot Way, and he was a leader who had a way of making people into believers. Belichick did this, too, in his own way - through his carefully developed knack for putting players in a position for them to succeed and be better with him than they were without him. And we saw that time and time again with players coming in and outperforming what their history would suggest, then leave and not perform to that level with other teams.

Belichick did this with Brady, too. And Brady's unique personality and drive allowed him to leverage that into a culture that was Belichick's design, driven with unique talent by Brady, and yielded a period of success that is unique in professional sports.

If the Patriots come in under .500 again, maybe we have this discussion. But they went 1 game under 500 in a year when Brady and Brown were playing for Tampa but among the top hits to the Patriots' salary cap.
In fairness, Inspector does not share mine or River's sentiments toward Bill.

First, I really appreciate your posts. Always thoughtful and well reasoned and pleasant.

The part bolded is what I want to address. How exactly were the Pats the perfect organization for Brady? He was 4th on the depth chart on a team that was flailing. Prior to hiring Bill, the team regressed under Carrol/Grier and hit rock bottom under Bill with a 5-13 record when Brady stepped in for injured Bledsoe. You may also remember that Terry Glenn got suspended and then was deactivated by Bill only playing 4 games total. He was the Pats best receiver and Brady did not have him as they made a run toward the chip.

Again, how was this a "perfect" situation for Brady?

Bill was considered a bust of a HC in Cleveland and on his way to be fired in NE if 2001 continued the way 2000 had UNTIL Brady came in and they went on to a 14-3 record and their first trophy.

I know we like to look back in hindsight and think Bill had this great lay out for Brady to be successful but let's be serious, we were a dumpster fire when Brady came in. And then the next season Bill releases Milloy and Glenn is traded. Again, not a great situation for Brady in his second year with a roster that was still being formed yet he led the league in TDs that year.

You can look at this as not giving Bill his due but the change was so dramatic when Brady came on. He is the one that changed the culture and mindset of the team. Players like Ty Law, Bruschi and Woody have all said this.

And then 20 years later, at age 43, he goes to another loser organization and in year one transforms them into champions. I really feel like the evidence at this point is so overwhelming that it was Brady who was the cornerstone of our dynasty.

Still though, interested in your thoughts.
 
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Mazz22

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There was no Patriot Way in Cleveland or in 2000. It only began when Brady took the field. Mangini says it best - Brady is the best force multiplier in the history of team sports.
 

John Galt

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There was no Patriot Way in Cleveland or in 2000. It only began when Brady took the field. Mangini says it best - Brady is the best force multiplier in the history of team sports.

Force multiplier presupposes a force to start with. Nice job defeating your own argument. :)
 

Mazz22

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Bill is a defensive genius. That is why he and Brady were such a great match.
 

PatsFan09

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In fairness, Inspector does not share mine or River's sentiments toward Bill.

First, I really appreciate your posts. Always thoughtful and well reasoned and pleasant.

The part bolded is what I want to address. How exactly were the Pats the perfect organization for Brady? He was 4th on the depth chart on a team that was flailing. Prior to hiring Bill, the team regressed under Carrol/Grier and hit rock bottom under Bill with a 5-13 record when Brady stepped in for injured Bledsoe. You may also remember that Terry Glenn got suspended and then was deactivated by Bill only playing 4 games total. He was the Pats best receiver and Brady did not have him as they made a run toward the chip.

Again, how was this a "perfect" situation for Brady?

Bill was considered a bust of a HC in Cleveland and on his way to be fired in NE if 2001 continued the way 2000 had UNTIL Brady came in and they went on to a 14-3 record and their first trophy.

I know we like to look back in hindsight and think Bill had this great lay out for Brady to be successful but let's be serious, we were a dumpster fire when Brady came in. And then the next season Bill releases Milloy and Glenn is traded. Again, not a great situation for Brady in his second year with a roster that was still being formed yet he led the league in TDs that year.

You can look at this as not giving Bill his due but the change was so dramatic when Brady came on. He is the one that changed the culture and mindset of the team. Players like Ty Law, Bruschi and Woody have all said this.

And then 20 years later, at age 43, he goes to another loser organization and in year one transforms them into champions. I really feel like the evidence at this point is so overwhelming that it was Brady who was the cornerstone of our dynasty.

Still though, interested in your thoughts.

HTF did BB do a bad job in Cleveland?
His owner literally sold the team. BB brought them to the playoffs and then his owner sabotaged him.

Please learn some football history.


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John Galt

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Yes Bill is a great defensive mind and he is the all-time head coach who built this organization.

What don't you get about giving props to Brady for taking full advantage of his opportunities in an organization he did not create

WTF guys?
 

Big/Sky/Fly

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Jesus Christ, Brady could not beat out Michael Bishop or Friez. He sat in the stands eating popcorn during games for most of the 2000 season.
Yet, BB took a much needed roster spot and kept Brady. BB is the one in charge of who stays and who goes.
So yes, BB saw something in Brady, enough to do what he has never done before or since.
Brady did not make that choice, BB did.
Bishop might have been a 1st round pick if he played these days.
 

Mazz22

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When the Pats are great again (they will be), will you admit that you're wrong about BB?
If he is able to win a SB with us or another team then I will. Absolutely.

Arians had zero SB wins before Brady too.
 

Mazz22

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ParanoidPatriot

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Bishop might have been a 1st round pick if he played these days.
If so, he would have been a 1st round bust. He was good when the play broke down, but not very good within the called play.
 
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ParanoidPatriot

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If he is able to win a SB with us or another team then I will. Absolutely.

Arians had zero SB wins before Brady too.
Once again I asks if you watch the games, without your Brady rose colored glasses.
Tampa had a very good team but Winston kept giving the ball to the other team. Without that, Tampa would have been a contender.
Todd Bowles put together a defensive game plan that stifled Mahomes. That was the reason they won the SB,not the Tampa offense.
 

Mazz22

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Once again I asks if you watch the games, without your Brady rose colored glasses.
Tampa had a very good team but Winston kept giving the ball to the other team. Without that, Tampa would have been a contender.
Todd Bowles put together a defensive game plan that stifled Mahomes. That was the reason they won the SB,not the Tampa offense.
I guess you missed the 31 points the offense put up by the middle of the third quarter.

And you ask me if I watch the games?
 
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