Would BB Be Elite If TB Had Not Been a Patriot?

Would BB have the same reputation as one of the best coaches of all time if he had not had TB?

  • 1- Yes. Belichick would have had the same success without Brady

    Votes: 1 4.3%

  • 2 - No Brady made Belichick, not the other way around. TB made Brady; BB did not make Brady

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • 3 - It was the perfect storm: combo of coach and QB lead to all those championships

    Votes: 19 82.6%

  • 4- Brady would have all those championships with any other coach.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • 5- BB having a losing record post-TB proves it was the player, not the coach who needs the credit

    Votes: 1 4.3%

  • 6- They would both have been elite.

    Votes: 2 8.7%
  • Total voters
    23

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oldbagfan

oldbagfan

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Would BB have the same reputation as one of the best coaches of all time if he had not had TB as his quarterback all those years?
 
I answered number 5. Bill has said this himself. It is a players game. When you have the most transcendent, greatest quarterback of all time you are going to win a lot of games and championships. Bill has also said players win games and coaches lose them. I think we have seen that plenty this season.
 
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Without Brady Belichick would have been a defensive coordinator by somewhere by 2004.
 
1. TB12 is the GOAT QB. and what he did in Tampa is straight out of a movie.
2. But the TB12 of 2007 and 2011 etc was not the same TB12 in 2000. Who taught TB12 how to be a pro? If a player improves 2X from where he started, does the HC not get any credit?
3. In an alternate universe, without BB, does TB12 even get drafted, and if he does get drafted, what other HC would have the balls to make a split-starter college-QB the starting NFL QB so soon?
4. BB was more than a defensive wizard who won Giants rings and turned around the Jets and Browns. The Patriots offense has reinvented itself multiple times (2007 option-routes, 2011 2TE, etc), that’s been via BB.
5. That 2003-2004 defense was so dominant, what are the chances BB still wins a ring by finding a different ball-control game-manager QB who doesn’t turn the ball over? (pretty high). BB showed in 2008 he could take a never-starter QB from college and turn that player into an eventual pro bowl attendee.

One tangential analogy for me is I’m a big Celtics fan of Bill Russell-Auerbach history. Russell was a transcendent talent. At the same time Russell probably doesn’t have the same success without the full support and organizational dynamics of Auerbach, especially in that historical societal climate/context. Similarly Auerbach doesn’t have the career he has without the centerpiece of the ultimate GOAT winner.
 
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Mazz22 said:
No. The evidence is just undeniable at this point.
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Correct, BB has the better record this year.
So how long are we going to beat a dead horse.
I never figured OBF to be a groupie like you. Yet every thread she has started lately is turd stirring like what you post.
Hope that I don't have to pull 2 triggers soon.
 
ParanoidPatriot said:
Correct, BB has the better record this year.
So how long are we going to beat a dead horse.
I never figured OBF to be a groupie like you. Yet every thread she has started lately is turd stirring like what you post.
Hope that I don't have to pull 2 triggers soon.
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She's not the only one.
 
This definitely should be moved to the Brady forum. Nothing new to see here that has not been beaten to death over and over again.
In fact now that I've said my piece, I'm going to go with the ignore thread option for the first time.
 
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I feel like this was a well intended thread that can easily derail since people love to chime in on the subject.

All I can say it keep it within the thread and play nice.
 
SkiptoMyLou said:
I feel like this was a well intended thread that can easily derail since people love to chime in on the subject.

All I can say it keep it within the thread and play nice.
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It was perfect combo . NFL history is filled with successful HOF QB & Coaches duos. Just look at Montana / walsh or Lombabli /star being the most successful.
If it's just the player . Manning & Rodgers the 2 best QBs in last 20 years won a combined 3 SBs.
 
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Its about the triumvirate

Owner
Coach/GM
QB

First the owner- I think most fans are either too young, of have forgotten what it was like to be a Patriots fan in the seasons P.K. (pre-Kraft). We were an irrelevant clown show of a franchise, the laughing stock of the league. We were the Jets, but with less bubbles of success. Kraft changed that. It took him a few years to figure out the proper role of an owner, but he was self-aware and could learn from his mistakes. He's the catalyst.

The Coach/GM - I could go on for a long time here, but I'll start with this... Without BB, the Big Tuna has 0 Super Bowl wins. Bill is a great defensive tactician. More importantly, he built a culture of accountability where performance was what mattered, not draft order or contract size. He was right about Kosar all those years ago and he was right about Brady in 2001. During Dynasty Part I (2001-2005) Brady was a young QB who didn't lose games, took coaching (the main difference between him and Bledsoe) and was capable of stepping up in big moments. In Part II, as Brady developed into "Tom Fricken Brady (2007-2014) Bill put great weapons around him and he put up astronomical numbers, but didn't win a Super Bowl. DynastyPart III (2015-2020) was about Bills restructuring the budget so the defense was good enough to win the big ones while relying on Brady to carry the offense.

The QB - If I hear one more time "What has Belichick accomplished without Brady" I might become violent. Without Belichick, if Tom Brady was drafted at all, he never gets a legit chance to start anywhere. Tom MAYBE sticks as a backup for a few years (recall he was the 4th QB in 2000 - he gets cut elsewhere) but he never becomes the household name he is today, he never dates actresses and super models, and he's living a life of quiet anonymity (but suspect success) somewhere in the Bay Area although I can imagine an alternate universe where Tom Brady is lining up support to be Speaker of the House right now instead of Kevin McCarthy.


Belichick made the most of the opportunity that Kraft provided. Brady made the most of the opportunity Belichick offered. Any one, without the other, is not the success he is today. The alchemy requires 3 ingredients.
 
Babooshka was the perfect owner for this dynasty. BB was the perfect coach for this dynasty. TB12 was the perfect QB for this dynasty. All of the very important key players were perfect for this dynasty.

6 rings. All of the noise doesn't matter. It's just noise.
 
oldbagfan said:
Would BB have the same reputation as one of the best coaches of all time if he had not had TB as his quarterback all those years?
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What a mindlessly stoopid list of poll options

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.

AND the only and obvious answer:

7. It was the perfect storm: combo of the undeniably greatest coach of all time and undeniably greatest QB of all time that lead to an absolutely incomparable twenty year dynasty that buried every other perfect storm coach/qb combo dynasty forever in the dust.

J, M, J, this shit pisses me off no end.
 
king of kings said:
A poll created by Brady Era Fans. They didn't know anything besides dominance, championships & Wins. So they built their fandom & loyalty around Brady.
Brady now a control freak . BB is struck in his old ways. Needs to fix issues on coaching staff & team performance.
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There's no need, and it really doesn't matter at this point who gets what portion of credit or blame. What matters to me as a Patriots fan is that the team is not headed in the right direction, and things need to change. I believe Bill can lead that change if he himself is willing to change. Will he? That's the question we are going to find out over the rest of the season and into the offseason. The one thing I'm willing to bet right now is that the Krafts will not let Bill bring back Patricia and Judge to run the offense next season and I would go as far as to bet that if he tries to, we will be looking at a new head coach come spring.
 
oldbagfan said:
You guys need to quit beating up the old woman. I'm just trying to keep myself occupied while I watch game after game of the Pats losing. :confusion:
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Lazar's article about the Bills game should keep anyone busy for about 2 hours.
 
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