Bill Simmons : Pats never a dynasty.

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By Bill Simmons
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Editor's note: This article appears in the January 30 issue of ESPN The Magazine.

When my beloved Pats squandered a chance in Denver to win three straight Super Bowls, all the talk centered on one theme: So long to the Patriots' dynasty. Of course, if they capture next season's Super Bowl, giving them four in six years, everyone will call them a dynasty again, but that's not the point.

This isn't the Bulls imploding after MJ and Pippen left, or even "The Brady Bunch" falling apart after Oliver joined the cast. The Patriots have as much talent as anyone, as well as the best coach and a franchise QB, and you can argue that this year's team endured too many injuries and played one god-awful game at the worst possible time.

Here's the bigger issue: Why were we calling them a dynasty in the first place? Bill Russell's Celtics won 11 titles in 13 seasons -- now that was a dynasty. We live in a sports world where hyperbole rules, so it's easy to forget that Webster's defines a dynasty as "a powerful group or family that maintains its position for a considerable time." Four years is not a considerable time. This Patriots run seemed significant because they were aiming to control the NFL for a considerable time and because the league has been carefully constructed to prevent this from happening. They weren't a dynasty. Not yet.

Still, something happened in Denver. When great teams lose their invincibility, it rarely happens because they self-destruct in every possible way. There's usually a finality to it. For instance, I've rooted for two truly great teams -- the Brady-Belichick Pats and Larry Bird's Celtics. The Celtics' day of reckoning came in 1988 at the hands of a younger, hungrier Pistons team. The torch was passed in Game 6 at the Silverdome, and I can still see Kevin McHale seeking out Isiah Thomas afterward, offering words of encouragement and wishing him well. It was vaguely reminiscent of Duke's "When Apollo died, part of me died, but now you're the one" speech in Rocky IV.

There was no moment like that in the Pats-Broncos game. Looking back, it wasn't just the turnovers as much as the players who screwed up. Did you ever imagine Brady forcing third-and-goal passes like, say, Jake Plummer, or missing wide-open receivers? What about Troy Brown muffing a punt, or Adam Vinatieri missing a crucial field goal, or even the great Willie McGinest getting duped by a play-action handoff for a killer first down? Since when has Willie ever fallen for that crap? It was downright startling for Pats fans to watch our usually unflappable boys collapse like that, kind of like Springsteen diehards watching the "Dancing in the Dark" video for the first time.

I think we need a word that helps us describe the moment when it all changes. When Buster Douglas knocked out Mike Tyson, it was momentous not just because Tyson lost, but because Douglas introduced the possibility that Tyson could lose. When Mariano Rivera blew Game 7 of the 2001 World Series ... well, in retrospect, it's clear the Yankees have never been the same. From that point on, any Yankee opponent remained alive in the ninth. When Clint Eastwood cried in "Million Dollar Baby," it might have had the desired dramatic effect, but he sold out a carefully crafted persona as the unflinching movie hero who always kept his cool.

On the flip side, MJ and the Bulls remained dominant until the end, heroically fending off the Pacers in the 1998 playoffs, and following that with Jordan's famous jumper to clinch No. 6. They kept their swagger through the last moment. That's what made them special.

Because no word exists to cover these scenarios, I'm tapping into my inner Don King and proposing "swaggerability," a cross between swagger and invincibility. Over the past three seasons, the beautiful thing about the Patriots wasn't how they kept winning, but how their fans remained absolutely convinced they would win. No matter what the circumstances, no matter how many injuries piled up, we believed Belichick would unearth the perfect plan, Brady would come through, and so would Willie, Brown, Vinatieri and everyone else. The reason we believed this was because it kept happening. In other words, they gave us no reason not to believe it.

More important, they believed it, and carried themselves like they did ... right up until the Broncos game, when their swaggerability disappeared into thin air. I find this infinitely more depressing than the thought of losing a dynasty that didn't really exist in the first place. Even if the Patriots win easily and often again next season, there will always be a small part of me that wonders if the wheels might come off. It happened in Denver, which means it could happen again.

That's the thing about swaggerability: You can lose it only once.
 
I like Bill Simmons. He's articulate and funny ... but he's also been in LA for a few years. LA does weird things to people's heads ... he isn't the same guy he was when he lived in/around Boston.
 
Geez, people get all hung up over 'dynasty'. If the Pats aren't a dynasty, then neither are the Packers, Steelers, Niners, Cowboys. Only the Celtics, Yankees, and Canadians can take that title. According to the all the naysayers.

Since when is modern sports accurate about anything? I'm willing to stretch the definition and call those teams and my Pats 'dynasties'. In this society they want us to wait for generations to pass before the hyperbole fits? Fat chance! We can't even acknowledge what happened last year as relevant! This is a culture that popularized "That is *so* five minutes ago!" as a rallying cry, for cryin' out loud. Dynasty fits in our culture. Pats are a dynasty. End of story! :patriots: :thumb:
 
He's right. There hasn't ever been a real football dynasty, nothing like what the Celtics, Canadiens and Yankees had going at various points of the last century.
The closest would probably be the '81-'98 Niners since they were Super Bowl contenders every year for 15+ seasons. But they don't have enough championships to qualify as one.

What ever happened to just calling someone "team of the decade"?
 
I've always liked Bill Simmons. From the first time I'd ever heard of him (when somebody on this board posted a link to one of his Page 2 columns) I've read his stuff and thought "Wow. That's exactly how I feel...only funnier and more well said."

I've even learned to overlook the repititious references to such arcana as "Teen Wolf" and "Real World/Road Rules" because he spoke so well for all Boston sports fans.

But this piece achieves never-before-reached heights of missing the point. The Pats were never a dynasty, but their dynasty is over because they made mistakes in Denver? Why kind of convoluted crap is that? How can anyone compare the NFL and NBA and conclude that you have to win 11 of 13 to be a dynasty? Some sports are easier to dominate. In the history of say, tennis, lots of people have won multiple Grand Slam events in the same year. But in golf, it happens once in a generation.

By the grueling standards of the NFL, 3 of 4 is a dynasty. And as I argued in the other thread, the Pats' is far from over. What the hell's gotten into The Sports Guy?
 
You know... Whats it matter??

I dont care what title you give or what title fans of other teams give it. It is what it is..

What I do know is this..

The Patriots Run since Tom Brady stepped under center is remarkable.. Its not done yet its still very early in the run.
and that said its already the top 3 or 4 if not higher runs in the history of the NFL.

Dynasty??? You call it what you will , but No other NFL team can call themselves a Dynasty if the Patriots Cant..
 
The Patriots were a dynasty in football terms. They're a very good team, well coached, and they dominated a parity driven NFL. Though, they werent nearly as dominant as my 90s Cowboys were. Dallas has won a Super Bowl in the single digits, the 10s, two in the 20s, and one in the 30s. Thats about as close any NFL team can claiming dynastic success.

God, I love football.
 
AikmantoIrvin said:
Though, they werent nearly as dominant as my 90s Cowboys were.

Uhhh, the Pats since 2001 achieved the longest winning streak in the history of the NFL, and are 11 games (currently at 49) away from having the longest streak without losing two games in a row in NFL history. Brady is 10-1 all-time in the playoffs.

If the Pats can muster 12 wins (certainly not impossible given they've got a much easier 2006 schedule, have a bunch of injured starters returning, and that they still won 10 regular season games in 2005) next season, they will have the same number of regular season victories as the '91-'96 Cowboys :cool: . If they win the SB next year, the Pats will certainly be a greater team than those 'Boys, perhaps with only the 70s Steelers sharing the mantle with these Pats.

I think the recognition of who was the more dominant team will have to wait at least a year to see how the 2006 Pats play out. Right now, I'd say they're about even as far as historical perspective.

Dallas has won a Super Bowl in the single digits, the 10s, two in the 20s, and one in the 30s. Thats about as close any NFL team can claiming dynastic success.

Flat out wrong :rolleyes: . The 81-98 Niners are the NFL's greatest dynasty, winning 5 Super Bowls in 14 years, and winning 10 games or more in every year (18) but the strike-shortened '82 season.


Welcome to the board.
 
I'm not sure if I disliked that article because Simmons dissed the Pats or because, for once, he wasn't acting like one of us.

Simmons was always the guy next to you at Gillette, the TD BankNorth Kotex Roto-rooter Garden, the bleachers at Fenway, the line of people at Dunkin' Donuts waiting for a Lahge regulah.

He pimped his Boston teams and how much he missed the Masshole lifestyle. The people that inhabited his new world in LA were somehow not as cool as us, despite the pretention-- they could never understand what it is like to be.....one of US, never care or suffer like we cared and suffered.

He was our voice to the rest of the country and despite his over-reliance on uncool pop culture references (he's still talking about Beverly Hills 90210) and his unwavering support for the vast wasteland that is the NBA, he was an idol of sorts-- the guy that made a good living by hanging around on his couch watching sports with his buddies and being a wiseass.

And now he goes and blows the whole thing up, the damn dirty ape.

That was some weak-assed stuff. Comparing the modern NFL to Russell and Auerbach's Celtics???? That's like comparing a barnswallow to a wildebeest.

I think that Simmons has been getting some pressure from his latte-drinking west coast posse to knock off talking about Boston sports and this is his little love letter to them.

Fine, Simmons -- it was nice to know you while it lasted. Don't let the door of the bandwagon hit you in the ass on your way out.
 
Don't roll your eyes at me, Wandering Athol, what are you? 13?

Jk...actually, none of what I posted is incorrect Dallas is the closest thing the NFL has to a dynasty. If you're talking strictly Lombardi Trophies, then its more up for debate. But if you're talking overall excellence over an extended period of time, it's Dallas, hands down.

20 consecutive winning seasons. TWENTY.

Most wins in postseason history.

20+ division titles.

8 NFC Championships.

8 Super Bowl appearances.

5 Super Bowl wins.

Thats pretty impressive. Not many, if any franchises can match that. Not the Niners, the Steelers, not even the Packers.
 
AikmantoIrvin said:
Don't roll your eyes at me, Wandering Athol, what are you? 13?


Son, you seem like a reasonable man-- despite that blue star tattooed on your forehead, so I'm going to put it to you politely.

Don't walk into a forum of people that post here frequently and start tossing insults around on your second post.

You want to debate the whole dynasty thing or anything else, then fine, but do it without getting nasty until you have some skins on the wall.

From what I've seen Wandering Athol could probably make you swallow your own tongue and doesn't need any help. I'm just being neighborly and giving you a few pointers.

Don't force us to bring up Bledsoe.

:fire:
 
AikmantoIrvin said:
Don't roll your eyes at me, Wandering Athol, what are you? 13?

Jk...actually, none of what I posted is incorrect Dallas is the closest thing the NFL has to a dynasty. If you're talking strictly Lombardi Trophies, then its more up for debate. But if you're talking overall excellence over an extended period of time, it's Dallas, hands down.

20 consecutive winning seasons. TWENTY.

Most wins in postseason history.

20+ division titles.

8 NFC Championships.

8 Super Bowl appearances.

5 Super Bowl wins.

Thats pretty impressive. Not many, if any franchises can match that. Not the Niners, the Steelers, not even the Packers.

STOLE THIS FROM SAME DEBATE ON ANOTHER SITE:
Originally Posted by BostonIrish
Perhaps the quality of playoff opponents has something to do with margin of victory. For the sake of argument, the teams that are spoken of as being a "dynasty" in the NFL are the Steelers, Cowboys, 49ers and Pats. Here's some comparisons of opponents in each of their SB years:

'74 Steelers (playoff opponents were combined 31-11 for .738 winning %)
'75 Steelers (31-11, .738%)
'78 Steelers (32-16, .667)
'79 Steelers (30-18, .625)

Opponents combined record of 124-56 for .689 winning percentage.
Best: .738
Worst: .625


'92 Cowboys (36-12, .750)
'93 Cowboys (31-17, .646)
'95 Cowboys (32-16, .750)

Opponenst combined record of 99-45 for .688 winning percentage.
Best: .750
Worst: .646


'81 Niners (33-15, .688)
'84 Niners (33-15, .688)
'88 Niners (35-13, .729)
'89 Niners (32-16, .667)
'94 Niners (32-16, .667)

Opponenst combined record of 165-75 for .688 winning percentage.
Best: .729
Worst: .667


'01 Patriots (37-11, .771)
'03 Patriots (35-13, .729)
'04 Patriots (40-8, .833)

Opponenst combined record of 112-32 for .778 winning percentage.
Best: .833
Worst: .729

Let's rank the 15 SB seasons represented above from toughest strength of opponents to weakest and see how the Patriots compare to the other dynasties:

1) '04 Patriots (40-8, .833)
2) '01 Patriots (37-11, .771)
3) '92 Cowboys (36-12, .750)
3) '95 Cowboys (36-12, .750)
5) '74 Steelers (31-11, .738)
5) '75 Steelers (31-11, .738)
7) '03 Patriots (35-13, .729)
7) '88 Niners (35-13, .729)
9) '81 Niners (33-15, .688)
9) '84 Niners (33-15, .688)
11) '94 Niners (32-16, .667)
11) '89 Niners (32-16, .667)
11) '78 Steelers (32-16, .667)
14) '94 Cowboys (31-17, .646)
15) '79 Steelers (30-18, .625)

I'd have to say the Patriots have had MUCH tougher competition in their SB seasons than any of the other dynasty teams. I'm just wondering if playing tougher teams makes it tougher to "blow them out."



On top of that... These teams are slam packed with HOF players or Future HOF players and had No Salary Cap to deal with or Free Agency... While NE dealt with the Cap / FA and loads of Injuries... and will have what 1 maybe 2 HOFers???

Its more Impressive to do it now than when the Boys / Niners / Steelers done it ,,, they had the tougher road and less to work with a still came out as good..
 
Hey Hawg? Who's hurling insults? Who's getting nasty?

I called Wandering Athol a 3rd grader and that offends you?

What are you? A 2nd grader?

Again....JK....just like the JK you conviently missed in regards to me calling Wandering a 3rd grader. So settle down, its cool..

Im not a troll.. I love football chat.


Patriot Ron....wow, look at those numbers go. I've has this same debate with other Patriots fans. And they always bring up winning perentage of the Patriots and Cowboys and other great teams. Winning percentage, while an important number, doesnt tell nearly the entire story. Not even close. One day, when im not feeling lazy, I'll happily dismantle your argument.

Finally, Im really not here to ruffle feathers, only to talk smack to you guys. Football smack.
 
I guess I'm in the minority. :shrug:

I never considered the Pats a dynasty.

Sure, okay... So the Pats won 3 of 4, but what if they now don't make it back to the playoffs for another 5 years? ( not that there's a chance in hell of that happening with my boy at the helm, but just for argument's sake )

So a good run of five years, one of those in which they failed to make the playoffs, is a dynasty?

Even in football terms I wouldn't rule that a dynasty.

Teams like the Steelers and Niners were dominant over an extended period of time ( no, five years is not extended IMO )

Teams like the Pats and Cowboys had a good run of 5 or 6 years, but that's all I consider it.

Now... If the Pats come back and even just make it to the playoffs for say, the next 3 years, then I'll say they are a dynasty.

Course, that's just my opinion. :shrug:
 
I beg to differ with little boy cowboy blue, but, there has been a more impressive record posted for excellence in the NFL and it was not by a team from Dallas. Go back and do your research youngun and look up the record of the Cleveland Browns from 1946 to 1970. (Note: I am not a Brown's fan either.)
In the old AAFC the Browns were league champions for 4 straight years. In 1950 they hoined the NFL and participated in 7 of the next 8 championship games, winning 3 times. The only year during that stretch the Browns weren't in the title game was in 1956, also the only year they had a losing record from 1946-1970. They won the league championship in 1950, their first year in the NFL.
I do believe that this is a record of dominance that does rival the Celtics in basketball, albeit without as many trophys. The Niners and th Boys have put some excellent stretches together, but neither were as dominant as the Browns in the 50's.
Do your homework son, before spouting off.:4321:
 
mgoblue101415 said:
I guess I'm in the minority. :shrug:

I never considered the Pats a dynasty.

Sure, okay... So the Pats won 3 of 4, but what if they now don't make it back to the playoffs for another 5 years? ( not that there's a chance in hell of that happening with my boy at the helm, but just for argument's sake )

So a good run of five years, one of those in which they failed to make the playoffs, is a dynasty?

Even in football terms I wouldn't rule that a dynasty.

Teams like the Steelers and Niners were dominant over an extended period of time ( no, five years is not extended IMO )

Teams like the Pats and Cowboys had a good run of 5 or 6 years, but that's all I consider it.

Now... If the Pats come back and even just make it to the playoffs for say, the next 3 years, then I'll say they are a dynasty.

Course, that's just my opinion. :shrug:

I'm totally with you on this one, MGo. I never considered them a dynasty either.. CLOSE to one, but not yet. They need to win one more title this decade (or more, thats fine too!!) and be competetive through the next 5 years in order for me to consider them a true dynasty. I strongly feel they can do it.

Our team is special. There's no reason not to have high expectations.

But what ever happens, the run of 3 in 4 years is simply amazing. :thumb:
 
It has been a nice run. Hey Cowboys fan, your team had some great years too. But to say they are bteer than the Patriots today is like saying that a snail will out run a corevette. There is no comparison to what your team did fifteen years ago and what our team is doing today. Comparing two teams after a game makes more sense, but after ten years is a stretch.

I hope every team thinks we are done. Just so we can prove them wrong. Its been this way for the past 30 years that I can remember.

Even winning two out of three World Championships is not going to change what the League or other teams fans think of our Patriots. Thats why we are average. But average is much better than your cowboys.
 
AikmantoIrvin said:
Don't roll your eyes at me, Wandering Athol, what are you? 13?

I only rolled my eyes b/c I was being friendly. If your name happened to be Yapperslap or NeverSayDiePats, the smilie probably would've been, :4321: , followed by something like: "Thanks for that last post. I haven't seen a festering discharge from a leper's rectum put into words like that in some time. Brighten the lives of your long-suffering parents: douse yourself in oil and run into a burning building, you worthless cum-spitting runt," or "Shut up before I wire your eyeballs to a defibrillator; set the voltage to Kill, and smile as you go flying around your shit-ridden coop like a beheaded multicolored, fire-farting chicken before collapsing conveniently at my feet so I can piss-out the flames and feed the remains of your fried gimp carcass to the pigs...."

...But I happen to like one-post yahoos who write half-witted boasts ;) . And besides, my football soul is so empty since the Pats retched up the Denver game, I could use a little friendly football banter. Thank you, and once again, welcome.

If you're talking strictly Lombardi Trophies, then its more up for debate. But if you're talking overall excellence over an extended period of time, it's Dallas, hands down.

See, this is exactly why I hope these Colts never win a damn Championship. Even if they get one f-in Lombardi, when I'm an old(er) fart I'm going to have to hear all about how their "overall excellence over an extended period of time" trumped "strictly Lombardi trophies" and how that makes them the BEST EVER DYNASTY.

First of all, my definition of "dynastic success" doesn't involve any losing stretches (aka "rebuilding"). That means you can choose between the '66-'85 'Pokes or the '91-'98 'Pokes if you want to argue against the '81-'98 Niners. Dynasties fall, and sometimes are rebuilt; you can't pretend '86-'90 didn't happen - sorry :shake: , you can't have it both ways. The word "dynasty" denotes "succession" - look it up. Advantage: still the Niners.

Instead, you'd be better off arguing that perhaps Dallas has been the most consistently successful team of all time, but then that would be a stretch as well, wouldn't it? The Dolphins have only 3 losing seasons (Vikings have 7, the Broncos have 8) since the merger in 1970; the 'Boys have 10. The Fins also have the highest winning percentage as well. Advantage: Dolphins.

Instead, the Cowboys are something else. They are not the winningest team nor the greatest dynasty of the modern era. Close, but no cigar (perhaps you should think of your team as the Larry Holmes of Heavyweight Boxing). They were a great franchise under Tom Landry that managed to lose more SBs than it won, and had a moderate period of dominance in the early 90s in-no-small-part caused by suckering idiot-non-savant Mike Lynn (Vikings GM) into handing over Emmitt Smith, Russell Maryland, Kevin Smith, and Darren Woodson for what amounted to a 3-yr rental of Herschel Walker, Jake Reed and a box of chocolates. Of course, the bumbling management :dith: of the Patsies of that period had quite a hand in the proceedings as well...thank you very much.

Subsequent and deservingly so, under the careful eye of Jerry Jones, the 'Boys have amassed a rather humdrum 48-64 record since 1999....how's the Parcells-as-savior era measuring up to your liking? Hope y'all got another Herschel Walker trade left in you (oh wait a second, that kind of stupidity has been banned; I'll guess you'll just have to wait until Jones sells the team then ROFL ). Thanks for the memories, Dallas Cowboys. :thumb: 2nd or 3rd-best is still OK.
 
FWIW, I tend to agree with mgo.....

When I think of dynasty, I think of consistent, sustained achievements for an extended period of time. And while 3 out of 4 SBs is most certainly impressive, I'm not quite ready to call it a dynasty... yet. Although I do think in a few more years, the term will apply.

When I think of NFL teams being a dynasty, I think of the 49ers (Montana's reign) and Cowboys (of the 90s), just off the top of my head. Further back, the Packers. And the Steel Curtain days.

Perhaps it's unfair to judge today's teams against them, due to the cap/free agency/etc. situations being different today, but I still think 5 years is a bit too short... give it a few more, and we'll see.

Just my .02.
 
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