Just something to remind any naysayers

[BuckWild]

I found this on another BB that I go to. This has nothing to do with football, so if you choose to ignore it in this forum I will not be upset. Be advised it is a large download (7 mb?) but it is well worth it. Also be advised it can be graphic.



http://www.politicsandprotest.org/

BuckWild!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[pookie]

'Nuff said Buck. Thank you. That is awesome.

 

[Ottawapatty]

With only 24 years experience on this planet I don't pretend to know what is right or wrong and that is why I don't try to contest or back this movement in Iraq. However, I have two questions that I need answers to:

The First: Does anyone else find it funny the GWB keeps saying he is afraid that he is trying to prevent another 9/11 by stopping Saddam from selling "Weapons of Mass Destruction" to terrorists. I mean first of all the most "dangerous" terrorists of late are the Osama and the gang whom are mortal enemies on polar oppostie sides of the polictal, religious and military spectrum. They would never collaborate regardless of the appeal it would have to hurt the US because then their victory would not be a moral one for either side. Also, the sale of WMDs hasn't hurt the US at all as of yet.

I took these clips from "the holy grail" (sarcasim) that is CNN's website;

19 April 1995: At 0902 a van packed with home-made explosives and parked outside the Alfred P Murrah federal building in downtown Oklahoma city explodes.

Home-made explosives. These two terrorists took products purchased from a store in the US to do the damage they did.

This was the same with the bomb used to kill Aussies in the Bali bombing. Home-made explosives.

Finally in regards to the 9/11 tragedy (once again I stress tragedy because I honour those who were murdered, I am merely pointing out how their deaths are being exploited in the media) it was done using American planes taken over with American-purchased weapons, box openers and letter openers.

I am just curious if people are tired of hearing about these WND (which would be nearly impossible to use on the US or Canada) when all of these other threats still exist.


My second Question

Number 2: When did it be come Iraq (prncd - "eYe-RACK") when during the first campaign it was Iraq (prncd - "AYE-RACK"). I just think it is funny how it just changed so quickly. I mean EVERYONE says it eYe-RACK now. Did anyone esle notice that?

Just some weird random thoughts,

Matt

A couple more random quotes, here are a few obscure things that for no real reason remind me of how I love America.

Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hangin' curveball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent over-rated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days.
-- Crash Davis

Also, don't forget that Baseball season is RIGHT around the corner and, Walt Whitman once said, "I see great things in Baseball. It's our game, the American game. It will repair our losses and be a blessing to us."

 

[Ottawapatty]

I mean first of all the most "dangerous" terrorists of late are the Osama and the gang whom are mortal enemies on polar opposite sides of the political, religious and military spectrum.

One thing that truly helps is when a person finishes their sentences eh!

I mean first of all the most "dangerous" terrorists of late are the Osama and the gang whom are mortal enemies on polar opposite sides of the political, religious and military spectrum -- AS SADDAM.

Sorry,

Matt

 

[Guest]

Very compelling, I'll agree.

You do realize, though, don't you, that we are the ones who originally trained Osama Bin Laden and Al-Qaida in Afghanistan? And that we are also the ones who originally helped arm Hussein in his war against Iran? We are also the original developers and producers of 90 percent of those biological agents that may be used against our own troops.

Violence begets violence. And our actions come back to haunt us -- with a vengeance -- as this web-video attests. This war isn't going to stop terrorism.

In five-ten years it will be some Turk or a Kuwaiti or an Egyptian. Hell, the Saudi's are already clandestine supporters of Al-Qaida. Anyone who believes otherwise is a fool.

What will we do then? Take over the entire middle-east? All on the pretext that they might be a threat?

God bless America. We need it.

Well said Alice.

Your comments open up the whole issue of pre-emptive foreign policy that is becoming a form of "Bush Doctrine" (It should be called the Cheney Doctrine....)

Isn't it funny how quickly a "good" US foreign policy full of moral conviction and imperative can have unforeseen (by some) consequences? Training Islamic extremists to fight our "Cold War" for us seemed like a great idea back in 1979.

My problem is the illogical linkage between Bin Laden and Hussein. Where does that come from? The Bush Administration throws Bin Laden and Hussein into the Axis of Evil "box" together, shakes it and then uses the actions of one to impugn the other. They convince themselves that whatever means are justified by the one are also applicable to the other. It is a convenient over-simplification.

No one argues -- liberal or otherwise -- that Hussein isn't a complete pig. We get it. There truly is no debate on that issue. That doesn't mean we can simply change every regime that doesn't suit us. How moral was the decision to train Bin Laden to fight the Russians for us? Did we LIKE him then or did he serve a political purpose? Stop using morality as the reason to engage in an unprovoked military action -- that is so fraught with irony it defines it.

There are many despicable human beings that go completely unnoticed by the Bush administration because to replace them does not serve a political purpose. Who gains the right to purchase Iraqi oil once a US supported regime is in place? Who gains political leverage with the other oil producing nations such as Saudi Arabia as a result of not being as dependent on their oil. The justification for fighting terrorism through Iraq is that it removes the OIL from the negotiating table -- that much I actually agree with. I just wish they would not insult people by suggesting otherwise. Instead they try to coalesce support through fear.

Motives are never as pure as so many people would like to believe. It wouldn't be politics without politics now would it? It would be "Moralitics." I am not saying that there aren't political reasons to fight this war. Just don't confuse politics with morality. One man's morality is another man's atrocity.

 

[dropKickMurphy]

Violence begets violence.

Maybe. But it is weakness that invites violence.

And our actions come back to haunt us -- with a vengeance -- as this web-video attests.

Our actions brought on 9-11? That is the standard, tired rhetoric of the "blame America first" crowd. In fact, the goal of Bin Laden is to establish radical fundamentalist Islamic regimes throughout the Middle East, and throughout the world. Look at Afghanistan under the Taliban, and picture the whole world looking like that. That is what Bin Laden dreams of, and anything that stands in the way of his vision must be destroyed. We most certainly will be the target of future terrorist attacks. This would be the case regardless of the war against Iraq. They hate us for what we are, and for what we will always continue to be....at least, Alice, until you are ready to trade your goalie mask for a burkha.

 

[BuckWild]

Very compelling, I'll agree.

You do realize, though, don't you, that we are the ones who originally trained Osama Bin Laden and Al-Qaida in Afghanistan? And that we are also the ones who originally helped arm Hussein in his war against Iran? We are also the original developers and producers of 90 percent of those biological agents that may be used against our own troops.

Violence begets violence. And our actions come back to haunt us -- with a vengeance -- as this web-video attests. This war isn't going to stop terrorism.

In five-ten years it will be some Turk or a Kuwaiti or an Egyptian. Hell, the Saudi's are already clandestine supporters of Al-Qaida. Anyone who believes otherwise is a fool.

What will we do then? Take over the entire middle-east? All on the pretext that they might be a threat?

God bless America. We need it.

Let me pretext my response by saying that I am not a blind supporter of our governments foreign policy. We have demonstrated numerous times in the past that we have made some really bad decisions.

That being said, our past support of certain people or regimes must be taking in the context of their time.

At the time of our support of Saddam, it could be argued that Iran posed a larger threat to the world then did Iraq. In hindsight, it probably would have been much smarter to leave them both to their own devices and allow them to destroy each other.

In our support of bin Laden, at that time bin Laden was actively engaged with the removal of Russia from Afghanistan. It can be argued that the goal of freeing Afghanistan from Russia was a noble cause even if the means where questionable at best.

On our development of most of the chemical and biological weapons that exist in the world, this seems to be an idea of much argument. While I will allow that we most certainly perfected many of these weapons, it can be argued that with out the research we would not be able to find antidotes to many of these same weapons. But to say blindly that certain factions around the world where not pursuing these weapons and that they would not have eventually perfected them is a little naive.

While it is true that "violence begets violence," it is also true that lack of action does not guaranty safety. It is very much true that there are some people that simply hate because they choose to hate, see Nazi Germany.

Regardless of what we do, there will be persons and groups that will continue to think we must die. I, for one, would much rather take the fight to these people then to simply wait for them to figure out a new way to get us.

Let's not forget that the US is the biggest single contributor of aid to Muslim countries. This fact is quietly being left unmentioned by those who say that we are only doing this for reasons of greed and conquest.

As far as what the future will hold, I can only hope that our actions in Iraq and Afghanistan will serve as notice to those countries that support terrorists that we will no longer stand around and wait for them to strike us first, and that they will cease and desist their support of those who hate only to hate. If they choose to continue there ways, then I hope we treat them with the same objectivity that we have given to Iraq, disarm or be disarmed.

BuckWild!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[dropKickMurphy]

My problem is the illogical linkage between Bin Laden and Hussein. Where does that come from? The Bush Administration throws Bin Laden and Hussein into the Axis of Evil "box" together, shakes it and then uses the actions of one to impugn the other

I hope you're sitting right now, NR, beacause this next statement could come as a major shock: I agree with you on this. It was a poor move to play the Bin Laden/Saddam card the way the administration did.
This does not change my opinion of the overall justification of the war. The way I see it, the administration ended up being caught off guard by the security council's unwillingness to enforece its resolution. It was probably somewhat of a desparation move to try to draw the Bin Laden/Saddam link without being willing to back it up with conclusive evidence. Whether the evidence exists, and our government was unwilling to compromise its sources, neither of us knows.
In any event, it should not have been neccessary to bring this to the table. There is plenty of justification as it is. For example, we know that Saddam directly supports terrorism by paying $$$ to the families of Hamas suicide murderers. As the president has stated (and the sentiment is shared by the overwhelming majority of Americans): We do not distinguish between the terrorists and those who support them. And, it is not only Al-Quaeda with whom we are at war, but all terrorist groups.
Obviously, I have significantly more trust in the integrity and honesty of Bush and his advisors than you have. I recognize that it is human nature to trust those whose political philosophies are close to your own, and distrust those whose philosophies differ. I generally assumed that Clinton was lying, and always doubted his motives. You seem to feel the same way about Bush. Every...EVERY word that you have written about him has been antagonistic. You constantly pick apart his shortcomings and seem to believe that they indicate that he is a moron. I'll be brutally frank...it sometimes smacks of petty jealosy that a man of your intellect and wit is running a message board while George W. Bush is running the most powerful nation on earth.

 

[Guest]

...here are a few obscure things that for no real reason remind me of how I love America.

Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hangin' curveball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent over-rated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days.
-- Crash Davis

When did it be come Iraq (prncd - "eYe-RACK") when during the first campaign it was Iraq (prncd - "AYE-RACK").

I'm not only NOT going to "sanitize" that (as one local idiot claims) I'm going to quote it. One of the great lines in baseball-movie lore. There are not a lot of great lines in that lore but that is another matter....


Regarding EYE-RACK, that is one of the most annoying and persistent adulterations of the English language. I think it is an Irish/Scottish thing. EYE-ER-Land. Arrrrrrhhhh matey!

I am part Italien (SHORT "i" everybody please) and part Irish (long EYE). The interesting thing is that when combined they make one person capable of saying BOTH correctly.

IH-Rack: That girl, she-has-a-nice-IH-Rack, as they say in It-AH-lee.

 

[dropKickMurphy]

IH-Rack: That girl, she-has-a-nice-IH-Rack, as they say in It-AH-lee.

"Aye, that lass is as pretty as a nice six-pack", as the say in EYE-rland!

 

[freak]

You do realize, though, don't you, that we are the ones who originally trained Osama Bin Laden and Al-Qaida in Afghanistan?

To combat Soviet aggression.

And that we are also the ones who originally helped arm Hussein in his war against Iran?

You mind telling me what we armed Hussein with?

The vast majority of the Iraqi military is SOVIET equipment, including many of the chemical agents they have. What little isn't Soviet in origin, is a mishmosh of French and Chinese equipment, the latter which is generally Soviet knockoffs.

Violence begets violence.

That's right, we deserved it. We had it coming. It was our fault.

 

[BuckWild]

That's right, we deserved it. We had it coming. It was our fault.

That should raise the temp in here a bit.

Very well placed sarcasm freak.

BuckWild!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[pookie]

But I'm sure you'll like that because it will justify yet another war and more military action. More flag waving. A bigger military budget. After all. We're American. We tell the world what to do. And if the world doesn't like it -- f*ck 'em.

Now, you're talking girl......

Anybody for a game of ping pong? How 'bout them Bruins?

 

[dropKickMurphy]

What an intriguing argument. Does it really? Do you go around bashing people who you think are weaker than you

No, I don't. But, the history books are full of examples of people who do.

Why are you even talking about Osama bin Laden

Ummm, maybe because I was responding to your contention that US policies were to blame for 9-11.

Oh, puuuhhhhleeease. I think it has a little more to do with decades upon decades of poorly thought out, unprincipled, manipulative foreign policy with regard to middle east affairs than feminism

I didn't mention feminism. My reference to burkas was in reference to the general oppression of human dignity in the fundamentalist Islamic world that OBL and his henchmen envision. The fact is, it is this vision that motivated the attacks on us. Your continued assertion (yes the old and tired rhetoric) that the attacks were some kind of response to our foreign policy indicates that you have not taken the time and effort to understand what drives Bin Laden.

If you really want to get at why this war is being fought, then just ask Dick Cheney's friends at Halliburton. I'm sure they have plenty of information. Halliburton stands to make a pretty penny rebuiliding Iraq.

My hope is that there will be plenty of US companies operating in Iraq in the future. And, making lots of money doing so. Isn't that just so evil...so greedy...to actually want to see all these greedy corporations make a profit? I almost forgot...these profits are reflected in my own 401k and investments...making it possible to house, feed, and educate my family and to hope to be able to retire someday without being a financial burden to my own family and fellow citizens. And you know, just maybe, someday the people of Iraq just may get the opportunity to make the same statement.
Perhaps that is naive on my part. I'd rather be naive than to be a prisoner to the tired old leftist dogma that my country is responsible for all the ills of this world. I know we have our problems, we make our mistakes, we sometimes act upon our darker motives. To my dying day, however, I will hold firm to my belief that the overall impact of the US on the world has been overwhelmingly positive. And the fact that some of the nations standing against us are the nations who have benefitted the most by our presence in the world....now there's a pretty good example of irony, wouldn't you agree?
By the way, Alice...I really did miss you while you were away. (It was getting so dull around here that for a few days, we were actually discussing the Patriots.) I hope your hockey team met with great success. I fear, though, that your surly demeanor may be indicative of a somewhat less than stellar showing. Regardless, you will always be the #1 star of my game.

 

[Ottawapatty]

Hey, I just came across this letter, which most of you probably already read, but I am sorry I thought it was interesting. I never knew much about past American/French history. However, I draw issue with two points.

1. The Pope says the war . . . - Sorry, but not everything the Pope says is that important. I am Catholic, but the Pope is just another guy with a hat to some people, it is just a fact.

2. "And let's see every member of Congress with a child of military age also sacrifice their kids for this war effort." I simply think this is the stupidest sentance ever. It is used in EVERY anti-war speach and it just gets dumber with time. I mean if I had a nickle for every time I have heard, "If the leaders would fight on the front lines these wars would never happen." since Grade 2 I'd be able to have lifetime tickets to every sporting event in Boston (slight exaggeration) I mean if the owners and sportscasters had to play on the O-line football would be played differently too, plus I wouldn't watch. Some things are the way they are, don't insult my intellegence with that unrealistic pacifist-dribble.

I digress, this is an interesting read.

Enjoy.


Monday, March 17, 2003
A Letter from Michael Moore to George W. Bush on the Eve of War


George W. Bush
1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
Washington, DC


Dear Governor Bush:

So today is what you call "the moment of truth," the day that "France and the rest of world have to show their cards on the table." I'm glad to hear that this day has finally arrived. Because, I gotta tell ya, having survived 440 days of your lying and conniving, I wasn't sure if I could take much more. So I'm glad to hear that today is Truth Day, 'cause I got a few truths I would like to share with you:

1. There is virtually NO ONE in America (talk radio nutters and Fox News aside) who is gung-ho to go to war. Trust me on this one. Walk out of the White House and on to any street in America and try to find five people who are PASSIONATE about wanting to kill Iraqis. YOU WON'T FIND THEM! Why? 'Cause NO Iraqis have ever come here and killed any of us! No Iraqi has even threatened to do that. You see, this is how we average Americans think: If a certain so-and-so is not perceived as a threat to our lives, then, believe it or not, we don't want to kill him! Funny how that works!

2. The majority of Americans -- the ones who never elected you -- are not fooled by your weapons of mass distraction. We know what the real issues are that affect our daily lives -- and none of them begin with I or end in Q. Here's what threatens us: two and a half million jobs lost since you took office, the stock market having become a cruel joke, no one knowing if their retirement funds are going to be there, gas now costs almost two dollars -- the list goes on and on. Bombing Iraq will not make any of this go away. Only you need to go away for things to improve.

3. As Bill Maher said last week, how bad do you have to suck to lose a popularity contest with Saddam Hussein? The whole world is against you, Mr. Bush. Count your fellow Americans among them.

4. The Pope has said this war is wrong, that it is a SIN. The Pope! But even worse, the Dixie Chicks have now come out against you! How bad does it have to get before you realize that you are an army of one on this war? Of course, this is a war you personally won't have to fight. Just like when you went AWOL while the poor were shipped to Vietnam in your place.

5. Of the 535 members of Congress, only ONE (Sen. Johnson of South Dakota) has an enlisted son or daughter in the armed forces! If you really want to stand up for America, please send your twin daughters over to Kuwait right now and let them don their chemical warfare suits. And let's see every member of Congress with a child of military age also sacrifice their kids for this war effort. What's that you say? You don't THINK so? Well, hey, guess what -- we don't think so either!

6. Finally, we love France. Yes, they have pulled some royal screw-ups.
Yes, some of them can be pretty damn annoying. But have you forgotten we wouldn't even have this country known as America if it weren't for the French? That it was their help in the Revolutionary War that won it for us? That our greatest thinkers and founding fathers -- Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, etc. -- spent many years in Paris where they refined the concepts that lead to our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution? That it was France who gave us our Statue of Liberty, a Frenchman who built the Chevrolet, and a pair of French brothers who invented the movies? And now they are doing what only a good friend can do -- tell you the truth about yourself, straight, no b.s. Quit pissing on the French and thank them for getting it right for once. You know, you really should have traveled more (like once) before you took over. Your ignorance of the world has not only made you look stupid, it has painted you into a corner you can't get out of.
Well, cheer up -- there IS good news. If you do go through with this war, more than likely it will be over soon because I'm guessing there aren't a lot of Iraqis willing to lay down their lives to protect Saddam Hussein.
After you "win" the war, you will enjoy a huge bump in the popularity polls as everyone loves a winner -- and who doesn't like to see a good ass-whoopin' every now and then (especially when it 's some third world ass!). So try your best to ride this victory all the way to next year's election. Of course, that's still a long ways away, so we'll all get to have a good hardy-har-har while we watch the economy sink even further down the toilet!
But, hey, who knows -- maybe you'll find Osama a few days before the election! See, start thinking like THAT! Keep hope alive! Kill Iraqis -- they got our oil!!

Yours,

Michael Moore
www.michaelmoore.com

 

[pookie]

It seems that many of the poor Iraqi citizens that have been opressed for umpteen years appreciate America more than many Americans do....



SAFWAN, Iraq - U.S. Marines tore down Saddam Hussein in a screeching pop of metal and bolts Friday, rigging winch chains to the giant street portraits in newly taken southern Iraq.

Crowds of men and boys watched, briefly joining Maj. David "Bull" Gurfein in a new cheer. "Iraqis, Iraqis, Iraqis!" Gurfein yelled, pumping his fist in the air.

"We wanted to send a message that Saddam is done," said Gurfein, a New York native in the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force.

"People are scared to show a lot of emotion. That's why we wanted to show them this time we're here, and Saddam is done," he said.

Marines next to him attached metal ropes on the front of their Jeeps to one metal portrait of Saddam, backing up to peel the Iraqi leader's black and white image off the metal frame.

The Marines arrived in Safwan, just across the Kuwait border, after Cobra attack helicopters, attack jets, tanks, 155 mm howitzers and sharpshooters cleared the way along Route 80, the main road into Iraq.

Safwan, 375 miles south of Baghdad, is a poor, dirty, wrecked town pocked by shrapnel from the last Gulf War. Reminders of the first war abound, among them a leftover missile that detonated inside a soccer field a year ago, killing eight children.

Iraqi forces in the area sporadically fired mortars and guns for hours Thursday and Friday. Most townspeople hid, although residents brought forth a wounded little girl, her palm bleeding after the new fighting. Another man said his wife was shot in the leg by the Americans.

A few men and boys ventured out, putting makeshift white flags on their pickup trucks or waving white T-shirts out truck windows.

"Americans very good," Ali Khemy said. "Iraq wants to be free."

Some chanted, "Ameriki! Ameriki!"

Many others in the starving town just patted their stomachs and raised their hands, begging for food.

A man identifying himself only as Abdullah welcomed the arrival of the U.S. troops: "Saddam Hussein is no good. Saddam Hussein a butcher."

An old woman shrouded in black -- one of the few women outside -- knelt toward the feet of Americans, embracing an American woman. A younger man with her pulled her away, giving her a warning sign by sliding his finger across his throat.

In 1991, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died after prematurely celebrating what they believed was their liberation from Saddam after the Gulf War. Some even pulled down a few pictures of Saddam then -- only to be killed by Iraqi forces.

Gurfein playfully traded pats with a disabled man and turned down a dinner invitation from townspeople.

"Friend, friend," he told them in Arabic learned in the first Gulf War.

"We stopped in Kuwait that time," he said. "We were all ready to come up there then, and we never did."

The townspeople seemed grateful this time.

"No Saddam Hussein!" one young man in headscarf told Gurfein. "Bush!"

 

[pookie]

I hope the love-fest continues. We'll see in a few years.

I hope so too Alice..... I hope so too.

 

[dropKickMurphy]

Well, it's refreshing to see your honesty, I'll give you that. It's nice to hear an American finally stand up and say, "It's about my standard of living, goddamnit. What's a few more war widows and civilian casualties when that's at stake??"

Oh, is that what I said? Sorry, I must have missed that.
The purpose of the war is not to benefit our companies, and I did not imply that.
What I said was that the presence of US companies in Iraq after the war will benefit citizens of both countries. Would you care to ask the people of South Korea, China, Japan, Germany, and so many others, what it meant to their economic development to have US companies bringing jobs to their countries? Oh, wait, let me save you the effort of replying with the standard bits about the "exploitation,"sweat shops", "pollution". Those are always convenient devices the left uses to cover the fact that the evil multi-national corporations can contribute to a dramatic improvement in the standard of living in these countries. Is it a perfect system? Hell, no. Feel free to provide me with a nice long list of all the systems that work better.
I just don't get you. You imply that people who work hard to provide for their families are greedy and the root of evil. That somehow, flying a plane into a building full of these greedy capitalists, or blowing yourself up on a bus full of people on their way to work is in some sick way justified. Your words strongly imply that it is more noble to crap on the American flag at a public event than it is to work hard, try to lead a decent life, and hope to be able to provide for your family. Funny, I always thought of this as "The American Dream". I also thought this was our #1 contribution to the world.
Alice, I do not dispute that the world is full of hate, injustice, and suffering. I know that our nation has caused some of it, but I believe that we are far more often the ones that take a stand to conquer these evils. Sometimes the willingness to take strong action in this cause antagonizes those nations who don't see things our way....particularly those nations whose leaders gain and hold power by imposing those evils on its citizens. Our actions may even result in further attacks on our country. That never has stopped us from pursuing the course of action which we believe to be right and just. And make no mistake about it. The overwhelming majority of American citizens believe that we are doing the right thing in Iraq.
Finally, I realize that the emotions on both sides of the issue are flaring right now. Some of us have gotten dangerously close (or even gone over...I may be guilty in that regard) to the line of making it personal. I hope we can agree that that is totally counterproductive to our debate. I disagree with almost everything that you and NR say in rgards to politics. Nevertheless, I respect the opinions and intelligence of both of you, as well as almost every other member of Patriots Planet. We are all very lucky to have the freedom to openly discuss our disagreements. The best way to safeguard that freedom is to treat opposing opinions (no matter how ridiculous they seem) with a modicum of respect. I pledge to try to do better in this regard from here on.

 

[Hawg73]

You know - as good as the technology of this board is, I'm starting to be convinced that you can't really conduct a really good debate or argument in text.

It just isn't the same as a good first person vitriol-fest with no time to think and all the screaming and yelling and implied threats of a goalie stick across the achilles tendon.

Not that you folks aren't giving it a good go. Some real nice use of sarcasm and very impassioned prose, really some top notch writing on both sides, and you are all to be commended for the elevated thinking - but I think I am going to stick with my original plan and have my war debates in first person.

Call me a wimp if you want, the medium is just too frustrating for a topic this deep and involved. If the war threads get as long as the Girlie Pic Thread we still won't cover a fraction of it.

Have at it kids, just try to play nice.

 

[dropKickMurphy]

You know - as good as the technology of this board is, I'm starting to be convinced that you can't really conduct a really good debate or argument in text.

Yeah, it would be so much better to carry on this discussion over Mai Tais while listening to Commander Cody live. See you at 7!