Wynn signs for only 2.3M and draft lookback

[DropKickFlutie]

1. Isiah Wynn just joined the Dolphins for only 2.3M, less than we are paying Anderson to be a backup. Good riddance to Wynn, who was always hurt and also a penalty turnstile as a Patriot. The Wynn, NKeal Harry, Michel drafts really set the franchise back and have led to talent mediocrity that is being fixed now.

2. The Patriot drafts from 2009-2012 with Floyd Reese and Bill O’Brien were stellar and produced the championship core including Gronk, McCourty, Hightower, Chung, Chandler Jones, Slater, Edelman, and many others.

3. The Patriot drafts from 2013-2019 were flat out bad and with a lot of wasted picks in earlier rounds. Good riddance to the 3 Stooges college roommates from John Carroll (Nick Caserio, Josh McDaniels, Dave Ziegler) who have since gone on to destroy other franchises. Good riddance. I will tentatively say the ship is slowly being righted with Groh and Wolf, but a lot hinges on whether Strange and Thornton become more than mediocre players this upcoming season.

Recent top picks post-Reese:
Dominique Easley
Malcolm Brown
Isaiah Wynn
Sony Michel
N'Keal Harry
——- (new regime)
Mac Jones
Cole Strange
Christian Gonzalez

 

[foobahl]

1. Isiah Wynn just joined the Dolphins for only 2.3M, less than we are paying Anderson to be a backup. Good riddance to Wynn, who was always hurt and also a penalty turnstile as a Patriot. The Wynn, NKeal Harry, Michel drafts really set the franchise back and have led to talent mediocrity that is being fixed now.

2. The Patriot drafts from 2009-2012 with Floyd Reese and Bill O’Brien were stellar and produced the championship core including Gronk, McCourty, Hightower, Chung, Chandler Jones, Slater, Edelman, and many others.

3. The Patriot drafts from 2013-2019 were flat out bad and with a lot of wasted picks in earlier rounds. Good riddance to the 3 Stooges college roommates from John Carroll (Nick Caserio, Josh McDaniels, Dave Ziegler) who have since gone on to destroy other franchises. Good riddance. I will tentatively say the ship is slowly being righted with Groh and Wolf, but a lot hinges on whether Strange and Thornton become more than mediocre players this upcoming season.

Recent top picks post-Reese:
Dominique Easley
Malcolm Brown
Isaiah Wynn
Sony Michel
N'Keal Harry
——- (new regime)
Mac Jones
Cole Strange
Christian Gonzalez

	NAME	DATE	ROUND	TM		OPP	RUSH YDS	ATT	YPC	RUSH TD	REC YDS	REC	TRG	AVG	REC TD
	Sony Michel	2/3/2019	Super Bowl	NE	@	LAR	94	18	5.2	1	0	0	2		0

 

[chevss454]

1. Isiah Wynn just joined the Dolphins for only 2.3M, less than we are paying Anderson to be a backup. Good riddance to Wynn, who was always hurt and also a penalty turnstile as a Patriot. The Wynn, NKeal Harry, Michel drafts really set the franchise back and have led to talent mediocrity that is being fixed now.

2. The Patriot drafts from 2009-2012 with Floyd Reese and Bill O’Brien were stellar and produced the championship core including Gronk, McCourty, Hightower, Chung, Chandler Jones, Slater, Edelman, and many others.

3. The Patriot drafts from 2013-2019 were flat out bad and with a lot of wasted picks in earlier rounds. Good riddance to the 3 Stooges college roommates from John Carroll (Nick Caserio, Josh McDaniels, Dave Ziegler) who have since gone on to destroy other franchises. Good riddance. I will tentatively say the ship is slowly being righted with Groh and Wolf, but a lot hinges on whether Strange and Thornton become more than mediocre players this upcoming season.

Recent top picks post-Reese:
Dominique Easley
Malcolm Brown
Isaiah Wynn
Sony Michel
N'Keal Harry
——- (new regime)
Mac Jones
Cole Strange
Christian Gonzalez

Looking at those names gives me heartburn. Easley and Brown seemed to have so much potential. Some draftees just don't work out very well. That's an NFL fact but they were surely busts.

Yeah, Wynn was an outlier for BB at OT because of his height, 6'2", and weight, 310, even though he had a great career at GA. His calling card was athleticism and quick feet.
Injuries largely derailed Wynn's career when he was with the Pats.

• 2018. Missed the entire year with an Achilles rupture
• 2019. Missed 6 games with a toe injury after starting the year on PUP due to the Achilles
• 2020. Knee injury week 11 --> IR again. He was moved to LG early in the year.
• 2021. Foot injury week 11 again --> IR again. He played RT in '21.
• 2022. Hip, shoulder and finally foot (wk 11! again) --> missed 4 games.

Including postseason, Wynn's injuries caused him to miss a total of 41 games; he played in only 43 games over 5 years.

Harry was a bust from the day he was drafted. Like Wynn, he was another outlier for the Patriots, satisfying only 2 of their 5 athletic requirements for a WR. Caserio lauded his contested catch ability saying "Wide receivers don't get open in this NFL". Man, was he wrong about that. I hated that pick. Now, he's a FA and his career is likely over.

I disagree about Michel, although he may have been drafted too high at 31 overall. He was a good back for us and he was instrumental in the Rams SB victory. But since RBs have been devalued by BB for many years and now the entire NFL devalues RBs, he was never going to get a 2nd contract. RBs are largely viewed as replaceable parts with a short shelf life that you don’t need to overpay for. RBBC has long been BB's mantra and now it's been adopted by the NFL with few exceptions. He also had multiple quad strains in the same leg which means more to come.

In '22 only 1 team paid over 8% of their cap to the RB room and that was Dallas. The Chiefs used just 1.57 percent of their cap space on running backs. The Eagles used 2.34 percent.
The Pats used 1.77% last year and it is currently 2.3% for '23 with the addition of Robinson until any of Kevin Harris, JJ Taylor or Pierre Strong are cut. Each of those 3 accounts for approximately 0.4% of the cap. At least one of those will be cut with a chance to make the PS.

 

[Grogan]

1. Isiah Wynn just joined the Dolphins for only 2.3M, less than we are paying Anderson to be a backup. Good riddance to Wynn, who was always hurt and also a penalty turnstile as a Patriot. The Wynn, NKeal Harry, Michel drafts really set the franchise back and have led to talent mediocrity that is being fixed now.

2. The Patriot drafts from 2009-2012 with Floyd Reese and Bill O’Brien were stellar and produced the championship core including Gronk, McCourty, Hightower, Chung, Chandler Jones, Slater, Edelman, and many others.

3. The Patriot drafts from 2013-2019 were flat out bad and with a lot of wasted picks in earlier rounds. Good riddance to the 3 Stooges college roommates from John Carroll (Nick Caserio, Josh McDaniels, Dave Ziegler) who have since gone on to destroy other franchises. Good riddance. I will tentatively say the ship is slowly being righted with Groh and Wolf, but a lot hinges on whether Strange and Thornton become more than mediocre players this upcoming season.

Recent top picks post-Reese:
Dominique Easley
Malcolm Brown
Isaiah Wynn
Sony Michel
N'Keal Harry
——- (new regime)
Mac Jones
Cole Strange
Christian Gonzalez

While I can't argue your general theory, I think it's a bit premature to pat anyone on the back for the most recent drafts. Let's see it on the field before we go crazy.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Looking at those names gives me heartburn. Easley and Brown seemed to have so much potential. Some draftees just don't work out very well. That's an NFL fact but they were surely busts.

Yeah, Wynn was an outlier for BB at OT because of his height, 6'2", and weight, 310, even though he had a great career at GA. His calling card was athleticism and quick feet.
Injuries largely derailed Wynn's career when he was with the Pats.

• 2018. Missed the entire year with an Achilles rupture
• 2019. Missed 6 games with a toe injury after starting the year on PUP due to the Achilles
• 2020. Knee injury week 11 --> IR again. He was moved to LG early in the year.
• 2021. Foot injury week 11 again --> IR again. He played RT in '21.
• 2022. Hip, shoulder and finally foot (wk 11! again) --> missed 4 games.

Including postseason, Wynn's injuries caused him to miss a total of 41 games; he played in only 43 games over 5 years.

Harry was a bust from the day he was drafted. Like Wynn, he was another outlier for the Patriots, satisfying only 2 of their 5 athletic requirements for a WR. Caserio lauded his contested catch ability saying "Wide receivers don't get open in this NFL". Man, was he wrong about that. I hated that pick. Now, he's a FA and his career is likely over.

I disagree about Michel, although he may have been drafted too high at 31 overall. He was a good back for us and he was instrumental in the Rams SB victory. But since RBs have been devalued by BB for many years and now the entire NFL devalues RBs, he was never going to get a 2nd contract. RBs are largely viewed as replaceable parts with a short shelf life that you don’t need to overpay for. RBBC has long been BB's mantra and now it's been adopted by the NFL with few exceptions. He also had multiple quad strains in the same leg which means more to come.

In '22 only 1 team paid over 8% of their cap to the RB room and that was Dallas. The Chiefs used just 1.57 percent of their cap space on running backs. The Eagles used 2.34 percent.
The Pats used 1.77% last year and it is currently 2.3% for '23 with the addition of Robinson until any of Kevin Harris, JJ Taylor or Pierre Strong are cut. Each of those 3 accounts for approximately 0.4% of the cap. At least one of those will be cut with a chance to make the PS.

That 2018 Patriots OLine + Gronk was excellent at creating huge running lanes. Blount or 15 other NFL backs could have easily had the same production. While Michel wasn’t bad, it was a waste to spend a 1st on a player who isn’t in the league anymore.

And the cumulative whiffs for almost 8 years after Reese led to a depleted talent cupboard that the Pats are now trying to replenish.
.

 

[foobahl]

I would trade 1 1st round pick that only lasted 1 year, for one super bowl win every year.

 

[chevss454]

That 2018 Patriots OLine + Gronk was excellent at creating huge running lanes. Blount or 15 other NFL backs could have easily had the same production. While Michel wasn’t bad, it was a waste to spend a 1st on a player who isn’t in the league anymore.

And the cumulative whiffs for almost 8 years after Reese led to a depleted talent cupboard that the Pats are now trying to replenish.
.

"A waste" is too strong imo.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Cajuste was just cut. Never panned out.

The recent Patriots draft revamp is much needed to get out from under all the crappy john carroll drafts. The draft whiffs pre Wolf/Groh reek way too much like the same eyes that pushed for Chad Jackson, Maroney, Tim Tebow etc.

View: https://twitter.com/_MLFootball/status/1659301804037795840?s=20

 

[chevss454]

Cajuste was just cut. Never panned out.

The recent Patriots draft revamp is much needed to get out from under all the crappy john carroll drafts. The draft whiffs pre Wolf/Groh reek way too much like the same eyes that pushed for Chad Jackson, Maroney, Tim Tebow etc.

View: https://twitter.com/_MLFootball/status/1659301804037795840?s=20

2019 was pitiful. Then came Covid and the 2020 virtual draft. BB had seen enough and Caserio and his cohorts would soon be gone.
Harry is a FA now that the Bears didn't invite him back. His career, if you can call it that, is likely over.
Stidham and Harris are the best of that draft.

RD1: N'Keal Harry, FA
RD2: Joejuan Williams, #Vikings
RD3: Chase Winovich, #Texans
RD3: Damien Harris, #Bills
RD3: Yodny Cajuste was waived today by NE
RD4: Halte Froholdt, #Cardinals
RD4: Jarrett Stidham, #Broncos
RD5: Byron Cowart, #Texans
RD5: Jake Bailey, #Dolphins
RD7: Ken Webster, CFL Roughriders

 

[Grogan]

I would trade 1 1st round pick that only lasted 1 year, for one super bowl win every year.

So would anyone, but I also doubt without him we wouldn't have won. He wasn't the difference, if was good enough to have been the difference he'd still be on the roster.

 

[rivshark86]

So would anyone, but I also doubt without him we wouldn't have won. He wasn't the difference, if was good enough to have been the difference he'd still be on the roster.

Spot on.

The Oline that playoff run was opening holes you could drive a truck through. At that point Sony did have the burst to take advantage once he got past the Oline.
But jeez, starting his rookie year I can’t count the times he would run straight into the back of a Tackle or Guard. I remember posting about it. He just could not see the hole unless it was gaping.
But talent aside, first round picks need to be spent on QBs, Offensive Tackles, defensive linemen, or true prototypical blue chip cornerbacks or receivers. I used to include LB, but the game is changing and now I think they should be left for later rounds as well.
RBs, Safeties, Guards, Centers need to be left to later rounds. Especially RBs who are often spent by the end of their rookie contract.
All that said, I absolutely love the draft the Pats had this year. This has been my favorite offseason in years.

 

[Flagg the Wanderer]

So would anyone, but I also doubt without him we wouldn't have won. He wasn't the difference, if was good enough to have been the difference he'd still be on the roster.

Spot on.

The Oline that playoff run was opening holes you could drive a truck through. At that point Sony did have the burst to take advantage once he got past the Oline.

Disagree. If you're going to argue that he didn't make the difference, you need to lay out what the team would have done without him. The bloody 3rd down (White) back had the same average ypc (4.5) as Sony in 2018. A 3rd down back by nature of the position and defenses they're facing should be exceeding the workhorse back's ypc.

No one else on the team except Corderelle Patterson (who had 5+ ypc doing Patterson types of things) came even remotely close to that. Burkhead had 3.3. Barner had 3.7.

But jeez, starting his rookie year I can’t count the times he would run straight into the back of a Tackle or Guard. I remember posting about it. He just could not see the hole unless it was gaping.

Yes, Michel was a rookie and played like one. He would absolutely run up the backs of his blockers, anticipating them succeeding and the hole opening at the last moment.

But no other options on the team had the success that he had, and that playoff run was defined by the shift to the ground game. In the win streak ending the season through the SB, they averaged well over 160 ypg on the ground vs in the 275 ypg range passing. They won the SB 13-3, with the defense getting a huge assist from the ball control and field position made possible by the pounding ground game. The morphed persona they needed to get that Lombardi was made possible by Michel's ability to take advantage of the OL run blocking dominance, and the respect defenses had to pay him. It is demonstrably the case that the Patriots didn't have another player who could do that.

So, no, I don't think Lombardi #6 is in the case without Michel on the team that year. From a macro perspective I don't like the pick, but I'd trade it for the Lombardi we don't get without him. Long term/short term is often a trade off, but it is also true that the long run is just a compilation of short runs, stacked together.

 

[foobahl]

And also on Sony, we got Chasen Hines (incomplete) and Jake Andrews (R) in the trade.

 

[aloyouis]

And also on Sony, we got Chasen Hines (incomplete) and Jake Andrews (R) in the trade.

A SB and two more on the current roster 6 seasons later? Only a few people on PP could Hate that and there is no way to talk sense into them.

 

[rivshark86]

Sony was great that Super Bowl run.

But let’s be real. Nick Chubb was taken after him right?

Either way drafting an RB in the first is bad policy.
It’s like saying well I bought 10 ten dollar scratch lottery tickets and won 70 bucks.
And that Super Bowl was contingent on a lot more than Sony.

 

[rivshark86]

Lol but I swear I am trying to look forward!!!

Despite 6 years or so if me hating personal moves by the Pats, I’m thrilled about this offseason.
I don’t think it bears fruit this year, but one more offseason like this and we will almost be out of the hole that was dug.

 

[Grogan]

Disagree. If you're going to argue that he didn't make the difference, you need to lay out what the team would have done without him. The bloody 3rd down (White) back had the same average ypc (4.5) as Sony in 2018. A 3rd down back by nature of the position and defenses they're facing should be exceeding the workhorse back's ypc.

No one else on the team except Corderelle Patterson (who had 5+ ypc doing Patterson types of things) came even remotely close to that. Burkhead had 3.3. Barner had 3.7.

Yes, Michel was a rookie and played like one. He would absolutely run up the backs of his blockers, anticipating them succeeding and the hole opening at the last moment.

But no other options on the team had the success that he had, and that playoff run was defined by the shift to the ground game. In the win streak ending the season through the SB, they averaged well over 160 ypg on the ground vs in the 275 ypg range passing. They won the SB 13-3, with the defense getting a huge assist from the ball control and field position made possible by the pounding ground game. The morphed persona they needed to get that Lombardi was made possible by Michel's ability to take advantage of the OL run blocking dominance, and the respect defenses had to pay him. It is demonstrably the case that the Patriots didn't have another player who could do that.

So, no, I don't think Lombardi #6 is in the case without Michel on the team that year. From a macro perspective I don't like the pick, but I'd trade it for the Lombardi we don't get without him. Long term/short term is often a trade off, but it is also true that the long run is just a compilation of short runs, stacked together.

True, but without having a crystal ball we will never really know. It is what it is.

 

[Flagg the Wanderer]

Sony was great that Super Bowl run.

But let’s be real. Nick Chubb was taken after him right?

Can't do that. You can do that for pretty much every pick ever except 2000 #199. And you're not arguing for Chubb, are you, because:

Either way drafting an RB in the first is bad policy.
It’s like saying well I bought 10 ten dollar scratch lottery tickets and won 70 bucks.
And that Super Bowl was contingent on a lot more than Sony.

It's a lower value position, at least in terms of long term payoff. But the average career is, what, 2 to 3 years? It's only the big hits that the second contract matters much. And more than ever the positions are getting fuzzy. What about Gibbs, who isn't worth it as an RB, but what about as a premier slot WR who also plays RB and looks to be elite as a passing down back?

You don't want to draft RBs in the first or whatever, so you can't suggest that they would have won with Chubb instead. You have to look at the RB corps they would have had if Michel was not on the team, and would they have won with that. Or some low-value FA they could have afforded.

Of course it was contingent on more than Sony. A lot of things have to go right to win a SB under any circumstances, and that was a very marginal SB team. But I don't think they win it with what was on the roster or a replacement level FA. They had a glaring hole at RB. Say what you want about long term value, I don't think they win if they take, say, a random DE or CB ranked in that range and fill in an RB off the scrap heap.

 

[rivshark86]

Well touché……

Your right nick chubb is an RB and even though he’s been arguably the best pure runner in the NFL for years he’s done nothing to get the browns closer to a playoff win.

Would you have rather had Sony or Chubb though?
I briefly scanned through the 18 draft though, and it wasn’t a great class offensively.
Mike Gesicki made his way here this offseason. He was a second round pick that year. I’m very happy he’s a Patriot.
I’ve had my gripes on patriots personal moves for years….
That said I love what was done this offseason, I’m trying to be positive. Im
Excited again because I believe in the moves that have been made.
It’s going to take another good offseason like this to get back into contention.

 

[aloyouis]

True, but without having a crystal ball we will never really know. It is what it is.

Yes. A Super Bowl win is what it is.