2013 UNIT REVIEWS: Secondary

MaineMan

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Messages
6,816
Reaction score
548
Points
113
CORNERBACK

DENNARD .......(404) (494) .(584) (674) (UFA)
DOWLING-IR ...(616) (857) (1098) (UFA)
TALIB ..........(2153*) (UFA)
ARRINGTON ..(2150) ..(UFA)
COLE ............(650) ..(UFA)

[* The Talib cap-hit figure is what it WOULD have been if he'd stayed in Tampa and NOT been suspended.]

DENNARD (5100/204) is officially a steal so far. Certainly not perfect, but a very good rookie performance and he can definitely play man-coverage (though I'm not sure how he is with zone assignments) and seems very comfortable at RCB (and not every good CB is). He's also been very good in run-support. So that's THREE major positives. Anyway, he's the first Pats drafted CB who's been able to actually do all that (Dowling aside, for the moment) at least since they began the transition away from primarily zone-read in 2011. If Dennard improves in 2013, he may be seeking a renegotiation for 2014.

DOWLING (6013/198), I believe, was intended to be the Pats first true "man corner", but he's appeared in only 8 games with two starts over two seasons, didn't contribute much when healthy in 2012 and has spent the rest of his time on IR. Since he's already under contract, the Pats probably keep him through OTAs just to see what, if anything, he's got. If he makes it as far as 2013 Camp, that might be a fairly positive sign. If he gets cut, though, I don't see how he could possibly be missed.

TALIB (6006/202), along with Dennard, has finally given the Pats the opportunity of playing a lot more man-coverage behind the pass-rush. His performance, IMO, wasn't consistently good, though, so it's difficult for me to gauge what his asking price might be or what the Pats' offer price might be for 2013 (and beyond). As for possible "reference comps", here are the cap-hit numbers for some current/recent UFA corners (and I'm not sure which of these guys can play man-coverage):

2013 UFAs
- Tracy Porter - $4.0M (2012 one-year deal in DEN)
- Antoine Cason - $1.81M (2012 SDG, final year of rookie deal)
- Mike Jenkins - $1.67M (2012 DAL, final year of rookie deal)
- DRC - $3.12M (2012 PHL, one-year deal)
- Leodis McKelvin - $2.69M (2012 BUF, final year of rookie deal)
- Pacman Jones - 950k (2012 CIN, one-year deal)
- Terence Newman - 825k (2012 CIN, one-year deal)
- Sheldon Brown - $5.47M (2012 CLE, last year of 2010 deal)
- Chris Houston - $4.63M (2012 DET, last year of 2011 deal)

RECENT UFA DEALS
- Brandon Flowers - (KCY, re-negotiated) $3.38M (2011), $8.0M (2012), $9.6M (2013)....
- Brandon Carr - $3.2M (2012 FA to DAL), $16.3M (2013), $9.4M (2014) ....
- Terrell Thomas - (NYG, re-negotiated) $1.2M (2012), $3.0M (2013), $6.05M (2014), $7.0M (2015)
[IIRC, Bodden got 3yrs/$22M from the Pats. He was a near-elite RCB in the zone scheme, though he failed in man-coverge (possibly due to his "secret" injury.]

ARRINGTON (5094/196). I'm still going back-and-forth on this guy. On the one hand, he has been significantly more valuable than a JAG. The Pats have had many JAGs in the secondary, guys like Molden, Lewis Sanders, etc., even Cole. Wilhite is probably the best example for me - a typical mid-round pick who was okay enough as a zone-guy in the nickel to hang around for his rookie contract, but who didn't provide much of anything else, including run-support. Arrington, in contrast, has shown some very valuable skills overall during the past three seasons, specific abilities that may be much harder to replace than most folks appear to believe. He was at least marginally competent, though dedicated and disciplined at RCB for two seasons in both man and zone (with safety help), and not all that many guys can handle the right side at all. He's been an exceptional special teamer (something Wilhite never did at all well) and is pretty consistently solid against the run (takes much better angles than Gregory). Replacing all that with another mid-rounder or FA is not really a slam-dunk (Moore, Cole, Malcolm Williams, Molden, Nathan Jones, Phillip Adams - just to name a recent few). OTOH, Arrington's kinda expensive. And he had a pretty crappy 2012 - IMO because he suddenly, inexplicably started free-lancing instead of being as disciplined in his assignments as he was before, something that is probably fixable. He's not quite that "3rd good corner" that the Pats need, but he's way better than the vast majority of #4 CBs around the league . Keeping him would be far preferable to starting over with another series of true JAGs, hoping that one of them pans out as well as Arrington has. But at what price?

COLE (5091/191) has been a very good special teamer who played more defensive snaps than pretty much any other ST guy in 2012 (and did pretty okay as a nickel/dime guy). He also contributed more than Wilhite ever did, even as a 5th CB. And he's relatively cheap. Though he might not be all that hard to replace, I'd keep him for the "known quantity" factor.

So, at the moment, the only starting-caliber MAN corner that Pats appear to be able to count on for 2013 is Dennard and all the rest of the CBs are question marks. McCourty could shift back to CB and I think he'd be okay in man-coverage going forward, but then the Pats would be missing an excellent deep safety (again), so that would seem self-defeating (I don't think Gregory has shown he can handle it anywhere near as well). Trying to replace Talib with another proven veteran man-coverage guy probably won't be any less expensive than simply re-signing Talib (and the new guy will have to get up to speed on his Pats-specific assignments, play-calls, work into the unit cohesion/communication, etc.). So, in any case, it seems likely to me that the Pats add at least one CB from the draft, very possibly out of their first three picks.


CURRENT UNIT CAP HIT for 2013 = $1.35M
- Re-sign Tailb to something like a $4.5M/$7.5M/$10.5M 3-year deal
- Resign Arrington with a slight bump (say $2.4M).
- Resign Cole with a slight bump (say $725k)
----- and the unit cap hit goes to just over $9M for 2013.
----- adding a 1st-round prospect raises the unit total to around $10.4M

---------------------------------------

SAFETY

- Martin & Nate Ebner are included with special-teamers
- Barrett and Will Allen are off my radar at this point

WILSON .........(767) .(959) (1150) (1333) (UFA)
McCOURTY ...(1735) (1845) (2115) (RFA)
GREGORY ......(1683) (2183) (3183) (UFA)
CHUNG .........(1173) ..(RFA)


McCOURTY (5106/193) is the guy I want to see as the deep coverage safety for a long time to come. He was still finding his way a bit back there for awhile this season, but he's already probably more reliable than Meriweather ever was and McCourty's a much better run-defender/tackler. McCourty, Dennard and (hopefully) Talib could form the base of a very good secondary going forward.

GREGORY (5104/185) was a Jeykll/Hyde performer this season, which is kinda the way he was in San Diego. He had some pretty good games alternating with some awful ones, but, in the end, showed only marginal improvement in many areas even when he was playing well. He wasn't in the right spot often enough for me to trust him at deep safety and his abilities against the run were pretty mediocre. IMHO, he has a lot to improve on in order to justify his 2013 cap hit, much less his place as a "starter".

WILSON (5116/205) showed a lot of promise and a lot of rookie deficiencies (and tentativeness) while starting when both Gregory and Chung were sidelined, but was still not far behind Gregory in coverage, better in run-D, and a whole bunch cheaper. If Wilson can make even a little improvement in both coverage and tackling in the off-season, he quickly could push Gregory down to #3 safety (at which point Gregory would seem very expensive for his role).

CHUNG (5112/207) wasn't able to stay healthy (again), and, when he was healthy, his coverage was still poor and his play was even less disciplined than in 2011. His RFA status (if that's even correct) seems irrelevant since there's no way the Pats are going to want to pay him even "original round tender" (2nd-round) money. Maybe the Pat make him an offer between 50% & 75% of his 2012 cap hit, but even that seems unlikely. I'm not sure I'd even want him as a #4 safety.

Because McCourty's elite range and play-diagnostics sorta lock him in as the deep-zone guy, Gregory or even a well-progressed Wilson would seem to be relegated to the intermediate-middle/in-the-box safety role by default. Unless Wilson makes a huge 2nd-year-leap in his play/route diagnostics, there's really no backup at deep-cover safety behind McCourty. As much as I'd like to see the Pats pick up a Harrison-like 6'2"/220 in-the-box thumper to help stifle RBs in run-D and blow up seam-routes and short-crosses, it may be that adding a more average-size guy with range, smarts and ball skills to develop as a reserve deep-cover guy would be more appropriate. But that perhaps expands the DB draft prospect list to include, perhaps, taller zone corners who don't post 1st-round-worthy 40 times. In any case, it seems almost inevitable to me that an any additional safeties for the 2013 roster come from the draft, because . . .

Among the more highly-rated 2013 free agent safeties, I'm not really seeing any guys who would seem worthy AND affordable AND likely to be allowed to walk by their current team. Ed Reed hit the BAL cap for $9.6M in 2012, turns 35 in September and seems almost certain to retire a Raven in another year or two, even if he's playing at a steep hometown discount at the end. Byrd and Goldson seem likely to get upwards of $6M for 2013. Kenny Phillips has played pretty well when healthy (which hasn't been all that often), but he made $2.96M with the Gints in 2012 and seems likely to get a raise, somewhere. William Moore is pretty limited to an in-the-box role and seems unlikely to be allowed to walk by the Falcons. Ronde Barber is still excellent, but ancient. LaRon Landry seems too undisciplined IMO and also seems likely to want/get a bump from the $2.6M he made with the Jets in 2012 (though probably somewhere besides New York). Leonhard (DEN), Clemons (MIA), Sanford (MIN) and the rest seem, at best, semi-JAGish with no future upside. There's always a possibility that some team will, unknowingly, let go of a young diamond-in-the-rough who hasn't seen much playing time, but . . .

CURRENT UNIT CAP HIT for 2013 = $4.99M (and Gregory accounts for more than 40% of that)
- adding a 1st/2nd-round draftee raises that to between $5.8M and $6.4M.
 
Excellent review, MM.

I'm already on record as thinking Talib won't be re-signed and that BB will go after one of the FAs who are better than him. This is a link to the post with what Aaron Schatz of FO has to say about the Pats only real need.

http://www.patriotsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1985666&postcount=123

A CB. Whether it's Talib or a FA better than Talib. Talib made the Pats better but Talib himself didn't grade out all that well. Schatz thinks the Pats can easily sign a better CB for a little more money.

Here's a post by MM of available FA CBs, size, wt, cost.

Grimes is 5092/180, will turn 30 in July and is already making more than Welker.

Toler - 5112/191, 28 as of Jan 2nd ($1.26M 2012 cap hit in last year of rookie deal with ARZ)
Shields (5106/184) is an RFA. Hard to see the Pack letting him go.
Newman - 5103/198, turns 35 on Sept 4th ($825k 2012 CIN on 1-yr deal).
Jones - 5094/187, turns 30 on Sept 30th ($950k 2012 CIN on 1-yr deal).
Brown - 5097/196, turns 34 on March 19th ($5.5M 2012 CLE, last year of 2010 deal).
Houston - 5097/185, turns 29 in October ($4.6M 2012 DET, last year of 2011 deal).
http://www.patriotsplanet.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1986071&postcount=127

These guys all graded out much better than Talib by FO. Jones graded out best of all. Alternatives for BB seem plentiful.

Grab 1 of these CBs to pair with Dennard, re-sign Arrington as nickel and hope Ras-I doesn't get hurt again. Maybe re-sign Cole or sign a similar CB.

As Schatz said it, "I'd much rather go into next year w/ Edelman at slot receiver and [a good FA] CB than Welker at slot and Arrington at CB."
 
Nice synopsis.

I'm going to say that your review of Arrington was very similar to my thoughts on him. He is a pretty good tackler and doesn't blow assignments very often, but was abused terribly in coverage this season to my eyes giving the impression that he just isn't athletic enough to stay with a quick WR in space. I wondered if he had some sort of injury that we weren't aware of because while he was never a speed burner in the past he was usually on his man. Perhaps he is miscast at corner and needs to focus on slot/short zone coverages, but he does have some value.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Ras-IR (thanks, Jerry) has more ability than is commonly believed. I thought he showed some coverage and improvement before he got hurt and also think he is a lot more physical than most observers. Generally, two straight years banged up is not a good sign for young players, but I think there is something there if he can have some better luck in the coming season. Probably not, but I'm not giving up on him just yet.

While Talib was given the lion's share of credit for backfield improvement in the 2nd half of the year I think Dennard was a just about as important and assuming we can't sign Aqib still have one solid corner and a good safety to build around in McCourty who was light-years better than last season at corner.

Still, that isn't enough. Not even close. I'd hate to see things backslide further and the team might have to spend a lot more on Talib than they'd like to not be right back where we were in coverage clown college and it is doubtful we'll pull that particular trigger.

Right now that 4th they spent on Talib looks like a very high rental fee that didn't work out like we'd hoped. I'm hoping the Pats simply think this coming draft is terrible or have something else up their sleeves. We've got little ammunition to work with to fix anything.
 
I'm hoping Logan Ryan is on NE's radar:

http://walterfootball.com/draft2013CB.php

Rutgers_logo.gif
Logan Ryan*, CB, Rutgers
Height: 6-0. Weight: 190.
Projected 40 Time: 4.49.
Projected Round (2013): 1-2.

1/31/13: Ryan had a very good season. The junior amassed 94 tackles, 17 passes broken up and four interceptions. Ryan's coverage was consistently good, and he had a presence all over the field. Rutgers put him on an island and Ryan held up well in man coverage. He has man-coverage ability for the NFL.

Ryan may have been better off returning for his senior season to have a shot at being one of the top corners in the 2014 NFL Draft class. He wasn't challenged by a pro-prospect receiver this year. Ryan didn't finish 2012 well against Louisville and Virginia Tech.

9/1/12: Ryan broke into the starting lineup and had an impressive sophomore season. He had 67 tackles with 5.5 tackles for a loss, two forced fumbles, three interceptions and 14 passes broken up last season. Ryan was third on the team in tackles. He should only get better as he gains experience.


Read somewhere he's being mentored by/training with Revis.

Safeties Daimion Stafford, Duron Harmon, and Kemal Ishmael may also be worth a look.
 
Nice synopsis.

I'm going to say that your review of Arrington was very similar to my thoughts on him. He is a pretty good tackler and doesn't blow assignments very often, but was abused terribly in coverage this season to my eyes giving the impression that he just isn't athletic enough to stay with a quick WR in space. I wondered if he had some sort of injury that we weren't aware of because while he was never a speed burner in the past he was usually on his man. Perhaps he is miscast at corner and needs to focus on slot/short zone coverages, but he does have some value.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Ras-IR (thanks, Jerry) has more ability than is commonly believed. I thought he showed some coverage and improvement before he got hurt and also think he is a lot more physical than most observers. Generally, two straight years banged up is not a good sign for young players, but I think there is something there if he can have some better luck in the coming season. Probably not, but I'm not giving up on him just yet.

While Talib was given the lion's share of credit for backfield improvement in the 2nd half of the year I think Dennard was a just about as important and assuming we can't sign Aqib still have one solid corner and a good safety to build around in McCourty who was light-years better than last season at corner.

Still, that isn't enough. Not even close. I'd hate to see things backslide further and the team might have to spend a lot more on Talib than they'd like to not be right back where we were in coverage clown college and it is doubtful we'll pull that particular trigger.

Right now that 4th they spent on Talib looks like a very high rental fee that didn't work out like we'd hoped. I'm hoping the Pats simply think this coming draft is terrible or have something else up their sleeves. We've got little ammunition to work with to fix anything.

Thanks.

Yeah, the way I saw it with Arrington wasn't a failure to keep up as much as it was mis-steps that put him behind in the first place, at which point he didn't have the speed/athleticism to catch-up. Those mis-steps could have been due to free-lancing or simply to mis-reading/biting on something, or having his eyes in the backfield when they should have been tracking elsewhere. In any case, it seemed to me like a significant departure in quality from his play at RCB in 2010/2011.

WRT Dowling, I just think that he's going to have to re-establish himself as the guy we saw for the first two weeks of 2011 - and needs to do so very quickly this off-season - or his roster spot is in imminent jeopardy.

I agree that McCourty' near-elite play at deep safety and Dennard's surprising ability in man-coverage at RCB had as much (or even more) positive impact than Talib did, but even so I think that there are a couple of assumptions being commonly made about Talib that I'm not quite willing to buy.

The first assumption is that we saw Talib's ceiling with the Pats in 2012. After sitting out for five weeks, he had to learn at least a somewhat different scheme/role/set of assignments/play calls/terminology - on the fly - while playing through injury after his first couple games. That's not exactly a recipe for exceptional success. Folks often seem more than willing to assume that a mid-season entry (e.g., a rookie coming off PUP) can be better in his 2nd season after a full Camp. I'm not sure why that doesn't apply equally to Talib.

The second assumption is that Tailb is going to be demanding more money on a new contract than what the Pats could get someone else "as good or better" for in free agency. There are actually two "sub-assumptions" integrated here:

(A) That a guy is going to be (in 2013) "as good as or better than" Talib might be in 2013 because the guy (regardless of his specific role, scheme or years of experience within those particular circumstances) rated higher than Talib did in 2012.

For example, PFF lists 62 FA cornerbacks and rates 41 of them as having performed "better" in 2012 than Talib did. However, that includes a half-dozen guys who played zero snaps (because they were on IR) and, at a 0.0 "rating", ranked higher than Talib's -2.2 (on 592 snaps between NE and TBY). This 41 also includes guys like Michael Adams, a special-teamer/dime-DB with 7 total starts in 6 seasons with ARZ whose 3.6 rating is based on a whopping 77 snaps played in 2012. Or Zack Bowman, who was cut by CHI after 21 snaps (1.7 rating), and who worked out for (and was passed on by) the Pats back in October, 2 weeks before they traded for Talib. And Cole (0.5 rating on 199 snaps) who was clearly a special-teamer/nickel-dime-slot DB/emergency fill-in for the Pats. Filtering out such guys by snap count (excepting Brent Grimes, based on his prior history), cuts that list in half.

Of that remainder, Newman, Brown and Marcus Trufant are all in their mid-30s, so I'm not sure how much/little the Pats might want to invest in them as a primary man-coverage boundary corner. Then there's Sam Shields (RFA, GBY). Then there are eight fairly obvious career JAGs - Joselio Hanson, EJ Biggers, Bradley Fletcher, DJ Moore, Captain Munnerlyn, Pat Lee, Jacob Lacey and Cedric Griffin, plus Arrington and Darius Butler (really?).

Here are the eight who are left:

Pacman, CIN (5094/187, age 30) 11.1/608 snaps
Houston, DET (5097/185, 29) 7.4/931 - VG 6-yr career ATL/DET and the only Lions DB worth a damn
Toler, ARZ (5112/191, 28) 6.8/308 - starter in 2010, IR in 2011, #3 with 2 starts in 2012
McKelvin, BUF (5102/190, 28) 3.8/354 - demoted to #3 CB the past two seasons; great returner though
Lewis, PIT (6007/195, 27) 3.2/943 - excellent 1st year starting in 2012, taking over for William Gay at LCB
Grimes, ATL (5092/177, 30) - VG starter for ATL 2009-2011 (IR'd after 52 snaps in 2012)
Williams, BAL (6011/185, 28) -1.7/1101 - VG full time starter the past two seasons
Porter, DEN (5107/188, 27) -2.1/316 - Signed as UFA w/ DEN after 4 good years in NOL; suffered a seizure in Camp, after which he couldn't beat out Chris Harris.
Talib, NE (6006/202, 27) -2.2/592 - VG starter 3 seasons in TBY

So, which of the above guys who out-rated Talib for 2012 (though maybe not prior to 2012) could be a certain upgrade over Talib and which would I trust as the full-time starting LCB for the Pats over Talib?

(B) That this "guy who would be as good as or better than Talib" are certain to be "more affordable" than what Talib (it's presumed) will demand. Here are the same guys and what they made in 2012:

Grimes - $10.2M (Franchise Tag)
Houston - $4.6M (last year of 3-yr deal)
Porter - $4.0M (1-yr deal)
McKelvin - $2.7M (rookie contract year)
Williams - $1.9M (rookie contract year) - BAL would let him walk?
Lewis - $1.3M (rookie contract year) - PIT would let him walk?
Toler - $1.3M (rookie contract year)
Pacman - $908k (1-yr deal) - CIN would let him walk?

Talib - $2.2M (rookie contract year)


IDK. I'm not saying that Talib is "THE guy", and maybe it's only me, but this just doesn't seem all that easy or simple as saying "there are lots of better guys than Talib out there who can be signed for less money."
 
IDK. I'm not saying that Talib is "THE guy", and maybe it's only me, but this just doesn't seem all that easy or simple as saying "there are lots of better guys than Talib out there who can be signed for less money."

As you stated, Talib didn't grade out very well by FO (or PFF). Other CBs you & I have named graded out better. FTR, I don't remember saying they'd cost less than Talib but I don't think they'd cost much more for a better player. I also don't remember saying there are lots of better guys but I did point out 7-8 who are UFAs who graded out better. These are good alternatives for the Pats to consider when negotiating with Talib. To me that's easy. I hope this clears up my thinking for you.
 
As you stated, Talib didn't grade out very well by FO (or PFF). Other CBs you & I have named graded out better. FTR, I don't remember saying they'd cost less than Talib but I don't think they'd cost much more for a better player. I also don't remember saying there are lots of better guys but I did point out 7-8 who are UFAs who graded out better. These are good alternatives for the Pats to consider when negotiating with Talib. To me that's easy. I hope this clears up my thinking for you.

YOU did not say these things (and I apologize if I made it seem like I was saying that), but others have at least implied as much, which what I was addressing.

I think the only place that you and I really disagree is wrt how much stock we put into 2012 grades when applying them to 2013. I don't doubt that a lot of guys performed better in their own specific circumstances in 2012 than Talib did with the Pats (in five year-end starts) in 2012. I just don't believe that those 2012 performances automatically translate to those guys being "better" or "as good" for the Pats in 2013 as Talib might be for the Pats in 2013 - as a full time starting LCB in man-coverage. There are simply too many undetermined variables for me to reach that conclusion.
 
YOU did not say these things (and I apologize if I made it seem like I was saying that), but others have at least implied as much, which what I was addressing.

I think the only place that you and I really disagree is wrt how much stock we put into 2012 grades when applying them to 2013. I don't doubt that a lot of guys performed better in their own specific circumstances in 2012 than Talib did with the Pats (in five year-end starts) in 2012. I just don't believe that those 2012 performances automatically translate to those guys being "better" or "as good" for the Pats in 2013 as Talib might be for the Pats in 2013 - as a full time starting LCB in man-coverage. There are simply too many undetermined variables for me to reach that conclusion.

Gotcha. Good thing we have Caserio & crew to sort through them to determine 'fit' and 'ability'.
 
Gotcha. Good thing we have Caserio & crew to sort through them to determine 'fit' and 'ability'.

And the Krafts to balance the budget. I'm guessing they'll try to draw the line on Talib somewhere around $4.5M for 2013 within a deal that's fairly backloaded and incentive bonus based. That would seem more than fair within the context of several recent contracts and Talib's own 2012 performance. Guys like Cary Williams and Kennan Lewis will certainly demand (and probably receive) more coming off hot seasons during the final years of their rookie deals. If Talib's agent tries to use them as his "comp" though, I'm pretty sure the Pats will be looking elsewhere.

I also agree with you that the Pats should, and likely will, try to grab Pacman as a #3 CB (and I'm not entirely sure that he wouldn't be a pretty adequate starting boundary corner), but I think there's also a good chance that Cincy goes some distance to outbid the Pats to keep him.
 
I am not sure how everyone graded out, but without Talib and arrington put in, our entire defense goes to crap. So whatever that means. I would like to have a year in which we were not in the bottom 4 in pass defense. I am not sure right now anyone could look at our secondary and say, its good to go with Talib gone. Am not seeing something with Arrington that you guys are? When he goes in teams start throwing his way. This was obvious in the afc title game, he is a flat out liability as an outside corner...a bump in pay? He should be pay us. He cost me at least a few breakable items watching him get picked on in games.
 
My mistake; they have 3 picks before #59.

Cincinnati Bengals


2013 NFL Draft Picks

1.#21, 2.#5 (from OAK), 2.#21, 3.#22, 4.#21, 5.#23, 6.#22, 6.#29 (from NE)

Whew! I had been just tracking a rough draft order on my own, intending to look it up later. Then I saw your post and thought, "Holy crap! How did I screw up that bad?!"
 
I am not sure how everyone graded out, but without Talib and arrington put in, our entire defense goes to crap. So whatever that means. I would like to have a year in which we were not in the bottom 4 in pass defense. I am not sure right now anyone could look at our secondary and say, its good to go with Talib gone. Am not seeing something with Arrington that you guys are? When he goes in teams start throwing his way. This was obvious in the afc title game, he is a flat out liability as an outside corner...a bump in pay? He should be pay us. He cost me at least a few breakable items watching him get picked on in games.

You missed the points made. Talib did improve the D play but Talib didn't grade out so well himself. There are 7-8 UFAs this year who graded out 6-12 pts better than he did. How much more would 1 of those guys cost the Pats than Talib will? That's the question for our pro scouts & Caserio to determine when considering options for Talib. No one wants to fill his spot with a worse CB; we want the best CB we can afford. It's all about value & options.

Arrington is a very good nickel CB. That's where he fits; no one wants him as a primary outside CB. Follow the program, please.
 
You missed the points made. Talib did improve the D play but Talib didn't grade out so well himself. There are 7-8 UFAs this year who graded out 6-12 pts better than he did. How much more would 1 of those guys cost the Pats than Talib will? That's the question for our pro scouts & Caserio to determine when considering options for Talib. No one wants to fill his spot with a worse CB; we want the best CB we can afford. It's all about value & options.

Arrington is a very good nickel CB. That's where he fits; no one wants him as a primary outside CB. Follow the program, please.

No I understand that, my question is if Talib did not grade well and made the defense that much better imagine if we had someone that was better. HOnestly I do follow the program, I do not trust Arrington anywhere...sorry...just my opinion.
 
The Bills just cut SS George Wilson, saving $2.9M on the last year of the contract he signed in 2011. He's 6001/213, will be 32 in mid-March. A top ten rated safety for 2012 by PFF. Still a solid coverage guy, he was also the Bills second-leading tackler last season.
 
The Bills just cut SS George Wilson, saving $2.9M on the last year of the contract he signed in 2011. He's 6001/213, will be 32 in mid-March. A top ten rated safety for 2012 by PFF. Still a solid coverage guy, he was also the Bills second-leading tackler last season.

Rather have Byrd but...
 
Rather have Byrd but...


During Byrd's rookie season (2009), QBs had a 10.2 rating throwing into his area. But they also had only a 25-something rating throwing into Wilson's area. The guy's been very good for awhile, but off the media radar.

He could be slowing down, but it seems like he was mostly a cap-casualty cut, and the Bills have the younger (cheaper) DaNorris Searcy coming up behind him.

For a likely 1-year rental, $2.9M (or possibly less) doesn't seem too bad.

Actually, IIRC, waiver rules are still in place, so the Pats would need to claim him, I think.
 
I'd been thinking about Xavier Rhodes for the Pats as a CB-to-Safety conversion and Steve Muench (Scouts, Inc.) mentions the possibility in a quote in the Reiss piece on Rhodes today. However, Muench also cautions that Rhodes' "instincts and discipline are just average" which seems like a clear red flag to me.
 
Back
Top