Paradox of Patriots Greatness

[crew1954]

http://www.footballnation.com/content/the-paradox-patriots-greatness/11708/?ref=email

 

[dchester]

Those draft numbers from the Steelers were an eye opener, as I've always considered them to be one of the best at the draft.

 

[Beaglebay]

Level-headed amalgamation of facts and opinion.

Sure would like a few more SB victories, though

 

[Oswlek]

Good article. Here is the biggest point:

One of the local scribes snidely tweeted that Pats only have 8 players on their roster who were drafted in rounds 1-3 from 2006-2010 after the cut of Price, and that this was further evidence that Belichick the GM has failed his club badly. Sounds damning until one realizes such a statement is completely lacking in context. How does that compare to other teams?

-- Patriots have 8 left and have gone 72-20 over that time
-- Steelers have 9 left and have gone 60-32 and won a Super Bowl
-- Saints have 7 left and have gone 58-34 and won a Super Bowl
-- Packers have 10 left and have gone 60-32 and won a Super Bowl
-- Lions have 15 left and have gone 25-67

All these supposedly great drafting teams haven't done significantly better than NE even during their worst period.

I posted GB and Balt's draft both here and an ESPN to little more than crickets, yet people still roll with the baseless rhetoric.

 

[Beaglebay]

hTe clotesEss aRe nowEArs to bEE foundeZ...BURR!N!!

 

[midgar8784]

Good article. Here is the biggest point:



All these supposedly great drafting teams haven't done significantly better than NE even during their worst period.

I posted GB and Balt's draft both here and an ESPN to little more than crickets, yet people still roll with the baseless rhetoric.

I think the thing about GB is though, if you look at their entire offense, its almost completely drafted by GB players....nelson, jennings, jones, clifton, cobb, finley, buluga, driver, Rodgers, Grant, lang...these are all starters....

 

[Beaglebay]

I think the thing about GB is though, if you look at their entire offense, its almost completely drafted by GB players....nelson, jennings, jones, clifton, cobb, finley, buluga, driver, Rodgers, Grant, lang...these are all starters....

Clean up in aisle 5

 

[midgar8784]

Clean up in aisle 5

Wait what? Not sure I get your slam on me this time.

 

[Beaglebay]

Wait what? Not sure I get your slam on me this time.

Your post makes no sense, that's all

EDIT: You mean the players on GB's offense were GB drafts...OK, got it.

 

[Skellington]

I wonder what the stats look like for teams who have the most starters from the later rounds. Especially those teams who have a QB that was drafted before round 6 compared to the Pats who have played with a lowly 6th round pick as their QB for years.

 

[chevss454]

Good article. Here is the biggest point:



All these supposedly great drafting teams haven't done significantly better than NE even during their worst period.

I posted GB and Balt's draft both here and an ESPN to little more than crickets, yet people still roll with the baseless rhetoric.

That is a valid point for sure. Taken out of context, our drafts don't look so good but compared to other good teams etc...

For me, (this is from a link at the bottom of the page) this is the biggest point.

So basically, in terms of yards, the Patriots defense is on pace to allow more yards than Marino threw for in one of the most prolific passing seasons in NFL history (before this year, of course).

What may be even more unprecedented than the Patriots being on pace to give up the most passing yards in NFL history? The Green Bay Packers being on pace to give up the second-most with a so-far-unblemished record. In fact, the three teams that are on pace to end up in the top 10 most pass yards ever allowed -- the Packers, Patriots and Saints -- are a combined 30-6. Stats are for losers.

If the Packers finish their run at 19-0, not only will they have become the first team to do so in league history, but they will also be the worst pass defense to win the Super Bowl.

Proving what we already knew about yards

Yards are the conch of statistical information: an empty shell that may appear dangerous, but lacks substance.

We all know the NFL is about efficiency. Efficiency is why the 2009 Saints, with the league's 26th-ranked total pass defense, were able to beat the Colts in Super Bowl XLIV. They had the third-ranked defense in Defensive Passer Rating that season. It's also why the 2001 Patriots, who were wild underdogs due to their 23rd-ranked total pass defense, were able to beat the Greatest Show on Turf in Super Bowl XXXVI. They, too, had the third-best Defensive Passer Rating that season.

These are just two examples that high yardage totals don't necessarily doom a defense in the postseason. In fact, four of the five worst pass defenses in gross yards (including the projected totals for the Patriots and Packers) have made the playoffs. You can't say the same for the top five worst defenses in Defensive Passer Rating. None of them have seen the other side of January.

<table style="width: 400px; height: 123px;" border="1" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="1"> <tbody> <tr> <td> Team</td> <td> Year</td> <td> Defensive Passer Rating</td> </tr> <tr> <td> Detroit Lions</td> <td> 2008</td> <td> 110.9</td> </tr> <tr> <td> Indianapolis Colts*</td> <td> 2011*</td> <td> 109.3*</td> </tr> <tr> <td> Houston Oilers</td> <td> 1982</td> <td> 107.3</td> </tr> <tr> <td> Detroit Lions</td> <td> 2009</td> <td> 107</td> </tr> <tr> <td> Minnesota Vikings</td> <td> 1984</td> <td> 104.4</td> </tr> </tbody> </table>
The Patriots defense currently boasts a Defensive Passer Rating of 86.62 -- far from the worst in history. That's because while New England gives up yards at an historic rate, they do two things very well: Make stops in the red zone, and intercept passes. Those two factors have helped the Patriots hold opponents to 18 touchdown passes, which ranks 17th. Just like 2010, this defense is one of the best in the league in interceptions with 17 of them through 11 games.

Who do the Patriots trail in interceptions? You guessed it: the Packers, who have 23 and a Defensive Passer Rating of 79.92, the 10th-best DPR in the NFL.

So let me get this straight: the same two defenses which are on pace to give up the most and second-most passing yards in NFL history are the same defenses which lead the league in interceptions?

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.co..._pace_for_records_of_dominance,_futility.html

 

[dchester]

I guess after thinking about it a little more. Draft picks would have a more difficult time making a good team, like the Pats or Steelers. Maybe a better number would be, how many of their pick (over the same period) are still in the league on any team.

The Lions sucked more many years, so it would be easier for a draft pick to make that team.

 

[Dman]

I guess after thinking about it a little more. Draft picks would have a more difficult time making a good team, like the Pats or Steelers. Maybe a better number would be, how many of their pick (over the same period) are still in the league on any team.

The Lions sucked more many years, so it would be easier for a draft pick to make that team.

the best way to look at it would be the % still in the league......Pats had a lot of 2nd round picks compared to some teams.....

 

[The Gr8est]

That is a valid point for sure. Taken out of context, our drafts don't look so good but compared to other good teams etc...

For me, (this is from a link at the bottom of the page) this is the biggest point.


http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.co..._pace_for_records_of_dominance,_futility.html

Interesting. So it seems that three teams with prolific offenses, GB, NO and NE, who can score early and often, have defenses who have to defend opponents playing from behind who have a lot of time of possession to try and make up the deficit by throwing, and racking up yards.

Wow, who woulda thunk it?


As for draft performance, I agree that good teams who draft lower than poor teams, and have a stronger roster to begin with, will have fewer draftees make their teams.

I always have to scratch my head when fans of other teams like to point at the Pats 2007 draft as exhibit "A" on how BB drafts poorly. Not only did BB trade for Wes Welker, Randy Moss, and a future #1 who became Jerod Mayo with picks from that draft, he also drafted Brandon Meriwether who, for better or worse, played for the Pats for 5 years, and is still in the league. The Pats also had several picks in the 6th and 7th round that year that BB couldn't trade or were untradeable picks in a horrible draft year; and then point to those failed picks as just more evidence of BB's poor drafting.

Unbelievable.

For a team who so many "fans" seem to think draft poorly, the Pats sure do get a lot of teams lining up to claim their "busts" when they cut them.

 

[BostonTim]

Interesting. So it seems that three teams with prolific offenses, GB, NO and NE, who can score early and often, have defenses who have to defend opponents playing from behind who have a lot of time of possession to try and make up the deficit by throwing, and racking up yards.

Wow, who woulda thunk it?


As for draft performance, I agree that good teams who draft lower than poor teams, and have a stronger roster to begin with, will have fewer draftees make their teams.

I always have to scratch my head when fans of other teams like to point at the Pats 2007 draft as exhibit "A" on how BB drafts poorly. Not only did BB trade for Wes Welker, Randy Moss, and a future #1 who became Jerod Mayo with picks from that draft, he also drafted Brandon Meriwether who, for better or worse, played for the Pats for 5 years, and is still in the league. The Pats also had several picks in the 6th and 7th round that year that BB couldn't trade or were untradeable picks in a horrible draft year; and then point to those failed picks as just more evidence of BB's poor drafting.

Unbelievable.

For a team who so many "fans" seem to think draft poorly, the Pats sure do get a lot of teams lining up to claim their "busts" when they cut them.

Good stuff. Even those who usually show the Pats at least a modicum of respect manage to constantly annoy me. For example here's what Don Banks has to say in this weeks SI Power Rankings where he has the Pats at 6 behind GB, NO, Balt, SF & Pitt:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...07/week.13/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t11_a2

New England Patriots (9-3)
If the playoffs opened today, the Patriots would be the AFC's No. 1 seed. Once upon a time that would have meant the road to the Super Bowl definitely wound through Foxboro. But once upon a time, New England didn't lose at home in the playoffs, like it's done in its postseason home opener in each of the past two years (against Baltimore in 2009 and the Jets in 2010). So, as we've said all along this year, nothing matters but January in New England this season.

What other team is held to this standard: Go ahead, go 13-3, get a 1 seed.
You suck until you win 1, and maybe then you'll still suck until you win the AFC, but even if you do we'll sneer at you and LOL if you "CHOKE" in the SB.

BTW the team MUST have the attitude of "It's a failure if we don't advance."

And the media is hiding in the shadow of that notion, just waiting for a chance to pounce. F*** the media.

Cheers, BostonTim

 

[dchester]

Good stuff. Even those who usually show the Pats at least a modicum of respect manage to constantly annoy me. For example here's what Don Banks has to say in this weeks SI Powe4r Rankings where he has the Pats at 6 behind GB, NO, Balt, SF & Pitt:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...07/week.13/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t11_a2

[/SIZE]

What other team is held to this standard: Go ahead, go 13-3, get a 1 seed.
You suck until you win 1, and maybe then you'll still suck until you win the AFC, but even if you do we'll sneer at you and LOL if you "CHOKE" in the SB.

BTW the team MUST have the attitude of "It's a failure if we don't advance."

And the media is hiding in the sahdow of that notion, just waiting for a chance to pounce. F*** the media.

Cheers, BostonTim

Basically, they understand that the standards are higher for the Pats. It's superbowl or bust.

 

[gomezcat]

I think the thing about GB is though, if you look at their entire offense, its almost completely drafted by GB players....nelson, jennings, jones, clifton, cobb, finley, buluga, driver, Rodgers, Grant, lang...these are all starters....

Messrs Brady, Hernandez, Gronkowski, Light, Mankins, Koppen, Vollmer, Solder, Branch...

We haven't done badly on the offensive side of the ball.

Defensive is a different matter so far. Good drafted players would be (at this point) Wilfork, Mayo, Spikes, Mc Courty and Chung. Others may turn out that way- we'll see.

 

[midgar8784]

Messrs Brady, Hernandez, Gronkowski, Light, Mankins, Koppen, Vollmer, Solder, Branch...

We haven't done badly on the offensive side of the ball.

Defensive is a different matter so far. Good drafted players would be (at this point) Wilfork, Mayo, Spikes, Mc Courty and Chung. Others may turn out that way- we'll see.

We have one receiver on this team that was drafted on the team, GB, all of their receivers were drafted. We have done well with Olineman though. It just seems like every player on GB was drafted by GB.

 

[BostonTim]

Basically, they understand that the standards are higher for the Pats. It's superbowl or bust.

That's 100% true. But I just think there's more to it. The media in general (and of course this is a very broad generalization with large exceptions all over the place) TENDS to PRESUME they will bust and TENDS to root for them to bust. They are sitting there waiting (and maybe even praying for the opportunity) to go HA HA. PATS one and done again.

And just because I'm paranoid doesn't meant they aren't out to get the Pats.

Cheers, BostonTim

 

[Beaglebay]

I tend to agree with you on this, Tim, and I think the biggest reason for the gloating from the media when NE falters is BB's "F you" attitude towards them. If he sucked up to them like Ryan, or gave terrific soundbites and scathing comments about opponents, they'd be happy with NE winning, because they'd have their dancing puppet around all the time.


As long as the media continues to hate NE, you can be assured BB is getting under their skin. Isn't it worth it?