UNIT REVIEW: Wide Receiver

MaineMan

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HERNANDEZ ......(3290) (4073) (4200) (5800) ... contracted thru 2017
LLOYD .............(2000) (4500) (5500) (UFA)
WELKER ...........(9515) (UFA)
EDELMAN-IR .......(615) (UFA)
EBERT ...............(405) .(495) (ERFA)
HOLMES ............(555) .(645) (UFA)
AIKEN ...............(480) (ERFA)

BRANCH ............(925) (UFA)
STALLWORTH-IR .(825) (UFA)

(No, Slater is NOT a WR.)


HERNANDEZ (6023/250) As a between-the-numbers possession guy, his receiving skills are very good. But, his blocking is also only "okay" - for a WR. For a TE, his blocking is mediocre and has been since forever. And he's not really a lead blocker out of the FB spot (even Hooman was probably a bit better). So, IMHO, this TE/H-back "title" for Hernandez is slightly overdone, and I think of him simply as a very big, versatile WR. In a sense, Hernandez is the Pats' version of Anquan Boldin (6005/220). He hasn't been quite as physical as Boldin and isn't quite as accomplished (Hernandez is 23 with 3 years experience; Boldin is 32 with 11 years experience), but he hasn't hit his ceiling yet.

LLOYD (6001/184) posted receiving stats (74/911, 4TD) that ended up surpassing the first year receiving stats of all 39 of the WRs acquired by BB (draftee and FA) except for two - Welker and Moss. So, the Pats got their money out of him in 2012. That said, Lloyd is a prototypical #2/#3 outside possession guy who was, unfortunately, thrust into #1 type expectations. Also, Lloyd will turn 32 in July and is slated to pull down over twice as much $$ in 2013.

WELKER (5086/185) has averaged #1 WR stats for five years with a somewhat lower YPC (that is mostly supported by YAC) but a higher catch rate (almost 70%, vs. the typical 60%-65% for "true #1s". Welker has been a perfect match for what Brady has done better than any other QB (quick reads and quick throws to the short middle). No "new guy", by himself, is going to come close to matching Welker's production in that role ("80% of Welker" is still about 100 catches for 1000 yards and 5 TDs). Welker is also 2 months older than Lloyd, relies a lot more on elite quickness and takes a lot more punishment. Welker's Franchise Tag number is $11.4M but it might as well be $50M because any new contract will likely not allow him to hit the 2013 cap for much more than about $7.5M and still be playing for the Pats. So, it's not realistic, IMO, to expect that any replacement slot WR would provide "80% of Welker" (see above) for "30% of Welker's salary" (IOW, around $2.5M). OTOH, the Pats aren't likely to simply let him walk. If the Pats and Welker can't come to terms, I'd guess, instead, Welker ends up in a tag-and-trade scenario that returns the Pats a 3rd rounder in exchange.

EDELMAN (5103/195) is already among the most accomplished punt returners in franchise history - not, really. He's first in average per return at 13.2 (among guys who've returned at least six punts), he's already 7th in career punt return yardage (he passed Faulk with his second punt return in wk-12 vs MIA), and he's tied with Fryar and Brown for career PR TDs at 3. That alone would almost give him a new contract. However, he's also been a more than adequate #4 WR in an offense that rarely deploys 3 WR anymore, much less 4. Since 2000, only 8 (of 39) Pats' WRs acquired by BB have caught for more yards than Edelman and only 6 of those WRs have caught more TDs. All those ahead of him have been #1/#2/#3 guys. Though Edelman is generally viewed as primarily a slot guy, he's NOT going to be anything close to a 1-to-1 replacement for Welker. However, he has proven that he's capable of contributing something worthwhile there and certainly seems worthy of another contract (say, $1.5M-$2.0M for 2012), especially considering that the odds of finding a brand new guy who will be immediately as successful in making a connection with Brady are, historically, about 1 in 5.

EBERT (5106/211) was brought back from NFL Limbo, but it was over two months after spending just a week with Philly, so he may be merely scout team filler at this point.

HOLMES (6043/223) WAS only late-season scout team filler in 2012 (and has yet to become the "next big thing" that Jerrah predicted in Dallas).

AIKEN (6011/213) was promoted for 3 snaps & some KR blocking duty v. JAX (wk-16) and then sent back to PS and then re-promoted at the end.

BRANCH seems likely done after this season.

STALLWORTH seems may be slightly less "done" than Branch. He seemed to have a bit more speed and separation ability left than Branch did. And he's doing his ankle rehab in Foxboro instead of at home in FL, which might be viewed as an indication that he's serious about being on the roster for the Pats next year, at least part of the time. There's a possibility that he's re-signed at vet minimum for Camp.

Overall, it's hard to be definitive about what the 2013 WR corps might look like until the Welker situation is resolved one way or the other. If Welker stays, he's THE slot guy and the rest of the corps is built around him. If he goes, it seems like there are plenty of pieces already in place to form a fairly reasonable "slot by committee" approach. Either way, though, it's pretty clear that the corps needs something more in the way of a vertical threat and more help in the short/intermediate range outside the numbers. And, very quickly, this becomes an almost word-for-word repeat of what was said in February 2011 and February 2012.

Lloyd would be a fairly reasonably paid outside possession guy at $4.5M - if he was still 27 - so it's hard to say that he'll be able to continue to play up to his cap hit in 2013 and 2014. Edelman and Hernandez can do a little of that, but both would need to work really hard in the off-season to even get up to Lloyd's 2012 level. Still, it seems to me that there needs to be TWO pretty good outside posession guys in order for that part of the passing attack to be a real threat. Plus, IMO, neither of them can get deep along the boundary consistently enough to present a "vertical threat." Demps may have the speed, but he's really too short, unless he shows up with a Welker-level shake-and-bake.


A 2013 WR corps of Hernandez, Lloyd, Edelman, and a couple young developmental draft picks (or a relatively high draftee and a mid-range FA) would be far from the worst WR unit that Brady has ever had to deal with. And, with Gronk and (potentially) Ballard both being mis-match targets from the TE spots and Woody/Vereen being legit receiving threats out of the backfield (plus a re-legitimized ground game), the offense would probably get along okay without Welker.

It's been widely posited that BB might "double-dip" on the WR position this draft as he's done in recent previous drafts with TE, RB and DT. It's also possible that the Pats feel they already have the "second half" of such a double dip in-house with Aiken, Holmes and Ebert (and possibly, Demps) - meaning that BB may feel comfortable enough to risk going unusually early on a WR draft pick. OTOH, the "PS trio" may just be camp fodder and BB will double-dip anyway (provided he comes up with more draft picks somehow). Even drafting a 1st-rounder AND a 4th rounder would add less than $2.0M to the 2013 cap expense. WRT UFA WRs, the menu seems to consist of (A) highly-accomplished vets who would hit the 2013 cap for as much as I'd project Welker to under a new contract (IOW, something around $7.5M), (B) old guys who have been problem children and/or may not have any more left in the tank than Branch, and (C) JAGs.

CURRENT UNIT COST (with Lloyd) = $10.0M
--- Add Welker at $7.5M
--- Add Edelman at $2.0M
--- Add 1st-round draftee at $1.5M
--- Subtract Lloyd at $4.5M

Mix-and-match almost any scenario and the ultimate total comes out to somewhere around $15.0M to $20.0M.
 
That was an interesting read, with little to argue about.

:toast:
 
That was an interesting read, with little to argue about.

:toast:

Thanks. But it's at least 50% my opinion which always leaves room for argument. And, the 50% that's more or less factual, middie will argue about anyway.

:coffee:
 
Branch better not be on the team next year.
 
Thanks. But it's at least 50% my opinion which always leaves room for argument. And, the 50% that's more or less factual, middie will argue about anyway.

:coffee:

What is there to argue? I will wait and see what the team does and then bitch and moan about that, someone saying what will happen does not really do much for me. I hope we make some changes and I hope there is some upgrades to a different skill set, or I imagine next year at this time will sound a lot like this year.
 
At this point the Pats seem to be hostage to whatever WW demands unless BB and McD, along with Brady, are ready to move forward without WW. The Pats are too smart to franchise WW again since the cap hit would be prohibitive. I think we can all agree on that. So it all comes back to WW's demands for a contract. If he's unrealistic again, I think he's gone with a slight chance of a sign and trade if negotiations don't become a nasty public spectacle like last year. Kraft has already paved the way for his exit by blaming the lawyers and agents in advance of any talks (that we know about). Being perfectly frank, I'm ok with that so long as the Pats take advantage of FA or the draft to upgrade Lloyd. WW's production is legendary and I agree no 1 person will make up that production but there are 4 other receiver positions that can help make up the production another slot guy, say Amendola for giggles, lacks.

Edelman needs to be re-signed for the reasons you mentioned. If he isn't and if WW isn't, this will certainly be the year of a complete overhaul in our receiving/return corps.

Lloyd was productive enough but there were games he didn't do much. Furthermore, he wasn't able to do the #1 thing we needed him to do. He couldn't pull coverage from the middle of the field. Defenses didn't respect him enough to provide S help for their CBs covering him. In that respect, Lloyd wasn't able to make the other receivers better. We need the threat of a bigger bodied, faster WR who can provide a quick strike. I'm all for picking one up in the draft. Woods, Hopkins, Patton or Rogers early in the draft. Harper, Mellette, Davis or Harrison later. Robert Woods would be ideal, imo.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectsearch?year=2013&position=WR&school=All

Branch is gone.
Stallworth is a guy I always liked on the field. Maybe he can take Lloyd's spot on the outside until our #1 is up to speed. Then again, he could also be gone in favor of a PS guy. TC will determine his fate, imo.

This will be an interesting off season for our WR corps. No doubt about that.
 
At this point the Pats seem to be hostage to whatever WW demands unless BB and McD, along with Brady, are ready to move forward without WW. The Pats are too smart to franchise WW again since the cap hit would be prohibitive. I think we can all agree on that. So it all comes back to WW's demands for a contract. If he's unrealistic again, I think he's gone with a slight chance of a sign and trade if negotiations don't become a nasty public spectacle like last year. Kraft has already paved the way for his exit by blaming the lawyers and agents in advance of any talks (that we know about). Being perfectly frank, I'm ok with that so long as the Pats take advantage of FA or the draft to upgrade Lloyd. WW's production is legendary and I agree no 1 person will make up that production but there are 4 other receiver positions that can help make up the production another slot guy, say Amendola for giggles, lacks.

Edelman needs to be re-signed for the reasons you mentioned. If he isn't and if WW isn't, this will certainly be the year of a complete overhaul in our receiving/return corps.

Lloyd was productive enough but there were games he didn't do much. Furthermore, he wasn't able to do the #1 thing we needed him to do. He couldn't pull coverage from the middle of the field. Defenses didn't respect him enough to provide S help for their CBs covering him. In that respect, Lloyd wasn't able to make the other receivers better. We need the threat of a bigger bodied, faster WR who can provide a quick strike. I'm all for picking one up in the draft. Woods, Hopkins, Patton or Rogers early in the draft. Harper, Mellette, Davis or Harrison later. Robert Woods would be ideal, imo.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectsearch?year=2013&position=WR&school=All

Branch is gone.
Stallworth is a guy I always liked on the field. Maybe he can take Lloyd's spot on the outside until our #1 is up to speed. Then again, he could also be gone in favor of a PS guy. TC will determine his fate, imo.

This will be an interesting off season for our WR corps. No doubt about that.

I don't think Welker is the only potential "hostage-taker" WRT the Cap budget. Vollmer and/or Talib may demand more than the upper limit of what the Pats are willing to pay (and may well get offers exceeding the limit). And I don't think that Welker's loss would have all that much greater impact on 2013 roster-building than the loss of either Vollmer or Talib, ultimately.

Even if all three go away, in order to acquire adequate replacements for less money than what they were demanding, the contracts for Brady, Wilfork and Mankins may all need to be restructured to pay those replacements and sign the Pats own "lesser" FAs.

So, it's not entirely on Welker alone; there are a lot of "moving parts" here. His contract status is simply the most high-profile of the bunch at the moment.
 
I don't think Welker is the only potential "hostage-taker" WRT the Cap budget. Vollmer and/or Talib may demand more than the upper limit of what the Pats are willing to pay (and may well get offers exceeding the limit). And I don't think that Welker's loss would have all that much greater impact on 2013 roster-building than the loss of either Vollmer or Talib, ultimately.

Even if all three go away, in order to acquire adequate replacements for less money than what they were demanding, the contracts for Brady, Wilfork and Mankins may all need to be restructured to pay those replacements and sign the Pats own "lesser" FAs.

So, it's not entirely on Welker alone; there are a lot of "moving parts" here. His contract status is simply the most high-profile of the bunch at the moment.

I agree but this was about WRs. And your points about all 3 players further supports no tag on any of them. I've already said Talib is likely gone to a team offering more than the Pats feel comfortable with. Reiss thinks the Pats are willing to offer WW 2yrs/16M; he also thinks that's not enough for WW. Here's another article from NEPDraft regarding WW.
http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/2013...tml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

I'm not in favor of the tag for Vollmer either. That's a huge sum for a very good player whose back could go south at any moment.
 
I agree but this was about WRs. And your points about all 3 players further supports no tag on any of them. I've already said Talib is likely gone to a team offering more than the Pats feel comfortable with. Reiss thinks the Pats are willing to offer WW 2yrs/16M; he also thinks that's not enough for WW. Here's another article from NEPDraft regarding WW.
http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/2013...tml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

I'm not in favor of the tag for Vollmer either. That's a huge sum for a very good player whose back could go south at any moment.


This is a WR thread? Oops! :wink:

Sorry, but as soon as the cap aspects of a potential new contract are brought up, I feel compelled to look at the bigger picture.

Actually, $8m/year is slightly higher than I think the Pats would go, at least for 2013. If Welker wants more $$/year than that, he'll probably have to get it elsewhere. But I had been thinking that he wanted more years, not necessarily more money than that. Maybe three years (?), with a partial guarantee for each year. It's not completely unreasonable. Stokley put up 45/544, 5TDs for Manning in 2012, at age 36. Of course, he wasn't getting anything near $8M for that.

Anyway, I still think it's about 50/50 that Talib re-signs with the Pats at a 2013 cap hit around $5M and escalating from there on a 3-year deal totaling around $22M. Lotta rumors about guys like Sean Smith getting $8-$10M/year, but I think that's mostly media hype. I don't think the analysts have quite caught up with how much tighter the cap is now.
 
Here's pretty much what I'm thinking regarding the WRs in the draft that could interest the Pats. I haven't included Cordarelle Patterson or Justin Hunter simply b/c they are raw route runners although they have all the athletic ability you could want. Patterson has drawn Randy Moss comparisons but he's as raw as it gets.

I could pick 2 of these guys, 1 6'1" or more and 1 6'1" or less from this group and be very happy.

1st, 2nd or 3rd rnd. Robert Woods 6'1", 190, Tavon Austin 5'9" 175, Terrance Williams 6'2", 201, DeAndre Hopkins 6'1", 200, Quinton Patton, 6', 202 lb, Marcus Wheaton, 5'11" 185, DaRick Rogers, 6'2" 206, Ryan Swope, 6', 204.

4th, 5th or 6th rnd. Chris Harper, 6'1", 228, Marcus Davis, 6'3" 230, Ace Sanders, 5'8", 176, Josh Boyce, 5'11", 203, Aaron Dobson, 6'3" 203, Stedman Bailey, 5'10" 195.

7th or UDFA. Aaron Mellette, 6'3" 216, Denard Robinson, 5'11" 195, Emory Blake, 6'1" 200, Chad Bumphis, 5'10", 202, Russell Shepard, 6' 195,

There are plenty more from the 4th rnd on I could have added but this isn't meant to be an all-inclusive list as much as it is to simply point out the depth of this draft at the WR position.
 
Anyone else wish the patriots would do something unpatriot and grab a big name FA WR like Wallace to help us stretch the field

IF they spend any money on WR it should be him. He is a proven Deep threat. HE fits BB Mold of a short fast WR.
 
Wallace is 1/4" taller than Lloyd and a couple lbs heavier than Edelman.

and a hell of a lot faster. I need to see Edelman have more than 20 catches a year before I start calling him a wideout. Our receivers last year were Lloyd at 6', Branch at 5'9 and Welker at 5'9 if he is standing on a pile of clothes, so that is what I was going by.
 
and a hell of a lot faster. I need to see Edelman have more than 20 catches a year before I start calling him a wideout. Our receivers last year were Lloyd at 6', Branch at 5'9 and Welker at 5'9 if he is standing on a pile of clothes, so that is what I was going by.

So, your claim was that Wallace (at 6003) would be a "giant" compared to the Pats current WRs (no mention of speed).

And now you don't want to "count" two of those Pats' current WRs for your own arbitrary reasons, cutting your comparison down to 5091 Branch and 5086 Welker.

Yes, Wallace would be a "giant" compared to them.

Anyone ever tell you that you argue like a politician?
 
So, your claim was that Wallace (at 6003) would be a "giant" compared to the Pats current WRs (no mention of speed).

And now you don't want to "count" two of those Pats' current WRs for your own arbitrary reasons, cutting your comparison down to 5091 Branch and 5086 Welker.

Yes, Wallace would be a "giant" compared to them.

Anyone ever tell you that you argue like a politician?

As I said I do not consider edelman a wide receiver, which I said in my statement. If 2 of our 3 wideouts were 5'8 then my point is that. I said this in regards to saying wallace was a shorter fast wideout that we like...I mean if you want to use career high 21 catch edelman as a wideout, then we really do have serious issues at that position.
 
Here's pretty much what I'm thinking regarding the WRs in the draft that could interest the Pats. I haven't included Cordarelle Patterson or Justin Hunter simply b/c they are raw route runners although they have all the athletic ability you could want. Patterson has drawn Randy Moss comparisons but he's as raw as it gets.

I could pick 2 of these guys, 1 6'1" or more and 1 6'1" or less from this group and be very happy.

1st, 2nd or 3rd rnd. Keenan Allen 6'3" 210, Cordarelle Patterson 6'3" 205, Robert Woods 6'1", 190, Tavon Austin 5'9" 175, Terrance Williams 6'2", 201, DeAndre Hopkins 6'1", 200, Quinton Patton, 6', 202 lb, Marcus Wheaton, 5'11" 185, DaRick Rogers, 6'2" 206, Ryan Swope, 6', 204.

4th, 5th or 6th rnd. Chris Harper, 6'1", 228, Marcus Davis, 6'3" 230, Ace Sanders, 5'8", 176, Josh Boyce, 5'11", 203, Aaron Dobson, 6'3" 203, Stedman Bailey, 5'10" 195, Marquise Goodwin, 5'9" 180.

7th or UDFA. Aaron Mellette, 6'3" 216, Denard Robinson, 5'11" 195, Emory Blake, 6'1" 200, Chad Bumphis, 5'10", 202, Russell Shepard, 6' 195,

There are plenty more from the 4th rnd on I could have added but this isn't meant to be an all-inclusive list as much as it is to simply point out the depth of this draft at the WR position.

I've changed my mind on both Patterson and Hunter after watching a lot more film on both players. They are back in it for me with Patterson in the 1st round and Hunter as a 2nd to 4th round player. Hunter improved tremendously in the 2nd half of the year no doubt due to his ACL surgery the year before. I'm also adding Keenan Allen to my list of 1st round possibilities. I had thought he would go far too soon but in recent mocks he's been slipping due to his lingering knee injury. Plus, if the mocks are anywhere close to accurate, they are pointing to big runs on DL and OL in the 1st round which may allow a great player to drop to us unexpectedly.
 
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