Pete Carroll and other 20 year old topics that have little to do with the 2023 Patriots. These posts were split out from that thread.

[spacecrime]

Kudos to the kid for surviving the most dumb decision Bill Belichick ever made. As I have mentioned before, someday (I hope), we should find out what the reason for Belichick doing what he did

I'm sure he'll explain it...right after he explains Patrick Chung in coverage play after play while Malcolm Butler sat on the bench.

I still believe Patricia was all about keeping the seat warm for a year waiting for BoB. I imagine it would be near impossible to sign and decent OC to a one-year deal.

 

[Mazz22]

Thought folks might be interested in this interview Sherman had with Pete Carroll about the Butler interception.


View: https://twitter.com/SeattleONTap/status/1694049830396649847?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1694049830396649847%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

 

[Mazz22]

I have heard Pete say this before about getting in all 4 plays. But I just don't get it. After Kearse makes the ridiculous catch there is 1:06 left on the clock and they are at the 5 yard line with one timeout. Lynch has been having an MVP game and on first down he gets to the 1 yard line with 1:00 left when the whistle blows. If Pete was really thinking, we need to get all 4 plays down at that point when they are at the 1 yard line with a minute left AND a timeout with Lynch almost scoring on the fist play, then that is completely absurd and terrible explanation for throwing on second down. You don't throw because you want to ensure you get all 4 plays. The objective is to SCORE and you are at the one with the best back in the league who has been a wrecking ball all game.

Second, he is full of crap about Bill being late with the goal line personnel. The fact is, we already had our goal line personnel on the field and Pete like everyone else in the world thought Bill was going to use his last timeout. When he didn't, Pete runs off his 12 personnel group and brings on the 11 and then Bill runs on our 11 personnel (remember, Flores yelling "Malcolm go!"). Bill changed personnel when Pete changed from his 12 to his 11. Pete to this day refuses to acknowledge why he did not trust Lynch to just pound it in on second down. If Lynch got stopped on second down, he could have used his timeout then and threw on third and either run/throw on 4th. This notion he is peddling that he had to throw on second down to get all 4 downs is preposterous and IMO disingenuous. No wonder Sherman and the defense tuned him out for years ...

Lastly, my favorite SB is the Seahawks because it blew up their budding dynasty. I love how they say they would have won the next year when the Panthers blew their doors off. LOL

 

[TommyD420]

I have heard Pete say this before about getting in all 4 plays. But I just don't get it. After Kearse makes the ridiculous catch there is 1:06 left on the clock and they are at the 5 yard line with one timeout. Lynch has been having an MVP game and on first down he gets to the 1 yard line with 1:00 left when the whistle blows. If Pete was really thinking, we need to get all 4 plays down at that point when they are at the 1 yard line with a minute left AND a timeout with Lynch almost scoring on the fist play, then that is completely absurd and terrible explanation for throwing on second down. You don't throw because you want to ensure you get all 4 plays. The objective is to SCORE and you are at the one with the best back in the league who has been a wrecking ball all game.

Second, he is full of crap about Bill being late with the goal line personnel. The fact is, we already had our goal line personnel on the field and Pete like everyone else in the world thought Bill was going to use his last timeout. When he didn't, Pete runs off his 12 personnel group and brings on the 11 and then Bill runs on our 11 personnel (remember, Flores yelling "Malcolm go!"). Bill changed personnel when Pete changed from his 12 to his 11. Pete to this day refuses to acknowledge why he did not trust Lynch to just pound it in on second down. If Lynch got stopped on second down, he could have used his timeout then and threw on third and either run/throw on 4th. This notion he is peddling that he had to throw on second down to get all 4 downs is preposterous and IMO disingenuous. No wonder Sherman and the defense tuned him out for years ...

Lastly, my favorite SB is the Seahawks because it blew up their budding dynasty. I love how they say they would have won the next year when the Panthers blew their doors off. LOL

I'll explain this one more time. It was absolutely the right call.

Let's say he scores with Lynch on the next play. Patriots have 30 seconds and 2 timeouts to get into FG range to tie. Something that's not exactly unheard of. Especially since the Patriots had been moving the ball at-will the entire quarter. Brady was absolutely on fire at that point. That's the best case scenario for the Seahawks.

Let's say he doesn't score. You burn your last time out, and then you have to throw twice, because you can't run and get another play off necessarily if you don't score.

You throw on 2nd down, the last thing you're thinking is interception. Worst-case in your mind is an incompletion, because it's a 3 -step drop, the sack's not in play. That gives you the option of run or pass on 3rd down with that timeout in your pocket.

Bill did have goalline called, but they didn't move to the Goalline- 3 Corners until they saw Lockette in the game, that's why 'Malcolm Go' was a thing. They ran the corner on late, and it was a set they hadn't shown the entire season.


Not calling a timeout right there was truly 'the genius of Bill Belichick'. Every other coach in the league panics and calls one (See Bills, a couple of years ago, for example).

Pete's one mistake was trusting Russell Wilson, and it's not like he had a choice at that point. It's absolutely the right call. Just like '4th and 2' was the right call from Belichick. This is why Pete's coached for 30+ years, he's a heck of a coach, and people who second-guess this prove every day why they're typing on keyboards and not actually coaching.

 

[aloyouis]

I'll explain this one more time. It was absolutely the right call.

Let's say he scores with Lynch on the next play. Patriots have 30 seconds and 2 timeouts to get into FG range to tie. Something that's not exactly unheard of. Especially since the Patriots had been moving the ball at-will the entire quarter. Brady was absolutely on fire at that point. That's the best case scenario for the Seahawks.

Let's say he doesn't score. You burn your last time out, and then you have to throw twice, because you can't run and get another play off necessarily if you don't score.

You throw on 2nd down, the last thing you're thinking is interception. Worst-case in your mind is an incompletion, because it's a 3 -step drop, the sack's not in play. That gives you the option of run or pass on 3rd down with that timeout in your pocket.

Bill did have goalline called, but they didn't move to the Goalline- 3 Corners until they saw Lockette in the game, that's why 'Malcolm Go' was a thing. They ran the corner on late, and it was a set they hadn't shown the entire season.


Not calling a timeout right there was truly 'the genius of Bill Belichick'. Every other coach in the league panics and calls one (See Bills, a couple of years ago, for example).

Pete's one mistake was trusting Russell Wilson, and it's not like he had a choice at that point. It's absolutely the right call. Just like '4th and 2' was the right call from Belichick. This is why Pete's coached for 30+ years, he's a heck of a coach, and people who second-guess this prove every day why they're typing on keyboards and not actually coaching.

You make a great argument.

What Pete should have done was hand the ball to the Skittles addict. The odds of going ahead and holding the line with 30 seconds were better than the odds Brady would score after that. Pete screwed the pooch. Bill did not.

Again, I respect the argument and the time you took to make it. PP needs as much of that as it can get.

 

[TommyD420]

You make a great argument.

What Pete should have done was hand the ball to the Skittles addict. The odds of going ahead and holding the line with 30 seconds were better than the odds Brady would score after that. Pete screwed the pooch. Bill did not.

Again, I respect the argument and the time you took to make it. PP needs as much of that as it can get.

Counterpoint - Brady was 13/15 for 124 and 2 TDs in the 4th quarter already. Best case is yes, you score, you go ahead there, but you're still leaving Brady with time and 2 timeouts to go 40 yards against a completely gassed defense.

Seattle had 2 miracle plays to even get into that position, they hadn't done jack in the 2nd half otherwise. Overtime wouldn't have necessarily been a good result.

I'll go even further, I don't even hate the actual pass that was called. 90% of the time, that's either a TD or an incompletion. It was only that the Patriots had played that exact play, and that Browner had recognized it, that Butler was even in the right position to make that play.

Ultimately, the blame is on Russell Wilson on that play, and not on Pete Carroll. That throw needed to be on his inside shoulder near the numbers, not leading him to the endzone. He puts the ball where it's supposed to be, and Butler breaks the play up, but has no chance at an interception. Wilson didn't throw it immediately, he hitched slightly. Choked, if you will.

 

[aloyouis]

Counterpoint - Brady was 13/15 for 124 and 2 TDs in the 4th quarter already. Best case is yes, you score, you go ahead there, but you're still leaving Brady with time and 2 timeouts to go 40 yards against a completely gassed defense. 30 seconds and two timeouts is a lot for Tom Brady, I would agree. That said, it's still very little.

Seattle had 2 miracle plays to even get into that position, they hadn't done jack in the 2nd half otherwise. Overtime wouldn't have necessarily been a good result. This was past tense and old news for the time frame. We are discussing of this game. Otherwise known as irrelevant.

I'll go even further, I don't even hate the actual pass that was called. 90% of the time, that's either a TD or an incompletion. It was only that the Patriots had played that exact play, and that Browner had recognized it, that Butler was even in the right position to make that play. 100% agree. We've all seen the video of them practicing it with Butler screwing it up and we've all seen the video of Butler being screamed at to get on the field due to the magnificent play recognition by the coaching staff. Again, irrelevant to the point of what Pete Carole should have, or could have known to do.

Ultimately, the blame is on Russell Wilson on that play, and not on Pete Carroll. That throw needed to be on his inside shoulder near the numbers, not leading him to the endzone. He puts the ball where it's supposed to be, and Butler breaks the play up, but has no chance at an interception. Wilson didn't throw it immediately, he hitched slightly. Choked, if you will. Agreed. Russell Wilson did not recognize coverage because he obviously had not practiced it. He's too intelligent, a quarterback to have completely forgotten that.

This was simply a situation where Pete Carrol and his staff was ultimately outcoached by bill Belichick and his staff. Pete should have run the ball down the middle of the patriots throats and taken his chances. While the patriots certainly could have scored their chances of doing so we're highly limited in my opinion.

Very nice discussing this with you.

 

[zeke mowatt]

I have heard Pete say this before about getting in all 4 plays. But I just don't get it. After Kearse makes the ridiculous catch there is 1:06 left on the clock and they are at the 5 yard line with one timeout. Lynch has been having an MVP game and on first down he gets to the 1 yard line with 1:00 left when the whistle blows. If Pete was really thinking, we need to get all 4 plays down at that point when they are at the 1 yard line with a minute left AND a timeout with Lynch almost scoring on the fist play, then that is completely absurd and terrible explanation for throwing on second down. You don't throw because you want to ensure you get all 4 plays. The objective is to SCORE and you are at the one with the best back in the league who has been a wrecking ball all game.

Second, he is full of crap about Bill being late with the goal line personnel. The fact is, we already had our goal line personnel on the field and Pete like everyone else in the world thought Bill was going to use his last timeout. When he didn't, Pete runs off his 12 personnel group and brings on the 11 and then Bill runs on our 11 personnel (remember, Flores yelling "Malcolm go!"). Bill changed personnel when Pete changed from his 12 to his 11. Pete to this day refuses to acknowledge why he did not trust Lynch to just pound it in on second down. If Lynch got stopped on second down, he could have used his timeout then and threw on third and either run/throw on 4th. This notion he is peddling that he had to throw on second down to get all 4 downs is preposterous and IMO disingenuous. No wonder Sherman and the defense tuned him out for years ...

Lastly, my favorite SB is the Seahawks because it blew up their budding dynasty. I love how they say they would have won the next year when the Panthers blew their doors off. LOL

He’s not saying he had to throw on second down. He’s saying somewhere in that series he’d have to throw in order use all four downs. If needed. Also Lynch was not good in that situation all year however he looked unstoppable in that game particularly in the second half.
All that is to say he should have run the ball lol.

 

[zeke mowatt]

I'll explain this one more time. It was absolutely the right call.

Let's say he scores with Lynch on the next play. Patriots have 30 seconds and 2 timeouts to get into FG range to tie. Something that's not exactly unheard of. Especially since the Patriots had been moving the ball at-will the entire quarter. Brady was absolutely on fire at that point. That's the best case scenario for the Seahawks.

Let's say he doesn't score. You burn your last time out, and then you have to throw twice, because you can't run and get another play off necessarily if you don't score.

You throw on 2nd down, the last thing you're thinking is interception. Worst-case in your mind is an incompletion, because it's a 3 -step drop, the sack's not in play. That gives you the option of run or pass on 3rd down with that timeout in your pocket.

Bill did have goalline called, but they didn't move to the Goalline- 3 Corners until they saw Lockette in the game, that's why 'Malcolm Go' was a thing. They ran the corner on late, and it was a set they hadn't shown the entire season.


Not calling a timeout right there was truly 'the genius of Bill Belichick'. Every other coach in the league panics and calls one (See Bills, a couple of years ago, for example).

Pete's one mistake was trusting Russell Wilson, and it's not like he had a choice at that point. It's absolutely the right call. Just like '4th and 2' was the right call from Belichick. This is why Pete's coached for 30+ years, he's a heck of a coach, and people who second-guess this prove every day why they're typing on keyboards and not actually coaching.

Lockette made a poor effort on the ball. Much blame belongs on him.

 

[spacecrime]

Pete should have run the ball down the middle of the patriots throats and taken his chances.

Carroll probably remembered doing exactly that and Mr Skittles got his ass stuffed. Killed a drive IR. If Carroll called a repeat of the same play and Lynch got stuffed again, we'd all be called Carroll an idiot for running the same play twice on the Pats when it didn't work the first time.Just like if the Seahawks won there'd be calling BB and idiot for not calling a timeout.

There are stupid plays the somehow work and near-perfect plays that don't. The bottom line for us fans is that if it works, the Good Call, Coach, and if it doesn't then the coach is on the hot seat.

 

[Mazz22]

He’s not saying he had to throw on second down. He’s saying somewhere in that series he’d have to throw in order use all four downs. If needed. Also Lynch was not good in that situation all year however he looked unstoppable in that game particularly in the second half.
All that is to say he should have run the ball lol.

I don't have issue with passing on second down vs third down. The issue was the play called. It was a slant over the middle instead of a fade in a game in which Seattle's tall receivers were schooling our shorter DBs. I also take issue with Pete's bold face lie that we were in 11 personnel at the goal line. We were not. We were in 12 as only a fool would be in 11 at the 1 yard line and allow Lynch to dance into the end zone. What happened is Pete was playing cat and mouse with Bill. When Bill didn't use the timeout, Pete ran out his 11 personnel and Bill then ran out Malcolm. This is why the SLANT play is awful. Browner recognizes it immediately and speaks to Malcolm literally telling him where to stand. Neither Pete or Wilson call time out knowing we had the play diagnosed presnap. I am sure this is the part that has irked the Seattle players for years. Pete's unwillingness to realize that play was blown up as soon as they line up. Now, 9 years later he wants to make it seem as if he was reacting to Bill and he was the one with the mismatch. Total and complete lie. Bill and Browner schooled him.

 

[TommyD420]

Lockette made a poor effort on the ball. Much blame belongs on him.

I guess you could look at it like that. The flip side of that, is that Lockette thought he had an easy catch, because of where Wilson led him. Butler had an incredible jump on that ball, I doubt Lockette even knew he was there before it was too late.

 

[zeke mowatt]

I don't have issue with passing on second down vs third down. The issue was the play called. It was a slant over the middle instead of a fade in a game in which Seattle's tall receivers were schooling our shorter DBs. I also take issue with Pete's bold face lie that we were in 11 personnel at the goal line. We were not. We were in 12 as only a fool would be in 11 at the 1 yard line and allow Lynch to dance into the end zone. What happened is Pete was playing cat and mouse with Bill. When Bill didn't use the timeout, Pete ran out his 11 personnel and Bill then ran out Malcolm. This is why the SLANT play is awful. Browner recognizes it immediately and speaks to Malcolm literally telling him where to stand. Neither Pete or Wilson call time out knowing we had the play diagnosed presnap. I am sure this is the part that has irked the Seattle players for years. Pete's unwillingness to realize that play was blown up as soon as they line up. Now, 9 years later he wants to make it seem as if he was reacting to Bill and he was the one with the mismatch. Total and complete lie. Bill and Browner schooled him.

Ok all that maybe true you’ve analyzed it more than me. I do recall BB saying at some point he wasn’t gonna call timeout and allow a clearly confused Seattle sideline time to get its shit together.
Fact remains, diagnosed or not, that play had a great chance to work had Lockett not made an alligator armed chicken shit effort. The ball was there for him albeit briefly.
But as I said earlier, if it’s my call to make, I’m running it. Pete and the shotcallers overthought it and stepped on their dicks. Punching themselves in the balls before they hit the dirt.

 

[spacecrime]

The only difference makers we had in 2001 the Terry Glenn who didn't play. Remember to do the math? And we signed a decent wide receiver I think Charles Johnson from Philly who turned out to be not so good. Troy Brown and David Patton were okay, and Fred Coleman was pretty good. Tight ends were Rod Cement Hands Rutledge and Jermaine Kent block my grandmother Wiggins. Defense had as you say a couple of decent guys but most were Street free agent JAGs.

 

[zeke mowatt]

I guess you could look at it like that. The flip side of that, is that Lockette thought he had an easy catch, because of where Wilson led him. Butler had an incredible jump on that ball, I doubt Lockette even knew he was there before it was too late.

Unbelievable play I was certain we were fekked. Browner deserves big credit as well.

 

[zeke mowatt]

The only difference makers we had in 2001 the Terry Glenn who didn't play. Remember to do the math? And we signed a decent wide receiver I think Charles Johnson from Philly who turned out to be not so good. Troy Brown and David Patton were okay, and Fred Coleman was pretty good. Tight ends were Rod Cement Hands Rutledge and Jermaine Kent block my grandmother Wiggins. Defense had as you say a couple of decent guys but most were Street free agent JAGs.

Antowain Smith should get big props for that entire season. Patriots were abysmal running the ball for several seasons prior and Drew took a horrific beating as a result. I’d call him a big difference maker.

 

[dchester]

The only difference makers we had in 2001 the Terry Glenn who didn't play. Remember to do the math? And we signed a decent wide receiver I think Charles Johnson from Philly who turned out to be not so good. Troy Brown and David Patton were okay, and Fred Coleman was pretty good. Tight ends were Rod Cement Hands Rutledge and Jermaine Kent block my grandmother Wiggins. Defense had as you say a couple of decent guys but most were Street free agent JAGs.

A lot of those JAGs on defense had career years in that 2001 season. The defense (and special teams) carried them to the Superbowl, and handled the greatest show on turf, (who had beat them in the regular season).

 

[Grogan]

A lot of those JAGs on defense had career years in that 2001 season. The defense (and special teams) carried them to the Superbowl, and handled the greatest show on turf, (who had beat them in the regular season).

All true, but I belive that the overall point was no one knew who were playmakers on that team, bruschi, Brown, Faulk, Seymour, Light and several others would go on to be recognized as difference makers. Mazz has claimed that that's are no difference makers on this years team like there was on the 01 team, and my response to that is we don't know yet.

 

[Mazz22]

All true, but I belive that the overall point was no one knew who were playmakers on that team, bruschi, Brown, Faulk, Seymour, Light and several others would go on to be recognized as difference makers. Mazz has claimed that that's are no difference makers on this years team like there was on the 01 team, and my response to that is we don't know yet.

When did I say that???
I think the defense is going to be really good. I've said that a bunch of times. My issue with the offense is that it lacks dynamic playmakers at the skilled positions. I wanted us to sign Hopkins for that reason. I was pleased also with the Zeke signing even though initially I was against it. I think him and Stevenson can have a pretty good year as a duo. Also as the preseason has unfolded, I have come to feel pretty good about our young receivers, helping to fill the gap. I believe now that the offense can be good, but obviously worry about the offensive line being able to protect Mac and open up holes for the RBs.

 

[Mazz22]

Also this notion that 2001 team didn't have difference makers is ridiculous. Law and Milloy were all pros/pro bowlers. Adam was one of the most consistent and clutch kickers. The players Bill acquired were all difference makers - Antowain Smith, Marc Edwards, David Patten, Roman Phifer, Bryan Cox, Mike Compton, Anthony Pleasant, Mike Vrabel. And I would be remiss to not mention pick #199 in the 2000 draft who played his way into the #2 QB position when Bledsoe went down.

I don't know what the genesis of this discussion was but if it is to try to compare this year's team to 2001 then you are all looking for fools gold over an imaginary rainbow. You can't win in today's league like you could 20+ years ago. The game today is predicated on offense, the rules are almost criminally in favor of the passing game. I hate to break to you guys but Mac is going to have to play big if we are going to be serious contenders. I really liked the way he looked vs GB, actually the entire offense save for the Oline which may be the doom of this team unfortunately.