Seperation of Church and State?

[Alcoholic9*]

A9....I guess if you make me I can do the research to defend what I am about to say but that statement up above is completely ridiculous.

Oh wait......you mean to include thousands of years ago? Not relevant. With the exception of Radical Muslims, what religion causes so much suffering today? Indeed it is the radical leftists of the world that have done by far the MOST damage,carnage and murder........




Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69) 49,000,000 ("great leap forward" and "cultural revolution")
Jozef Stalin (USSR, 1934-39) 13,000,000 (the purges)
Adolf Hitler (Germany, 1939-1945) 12,000,000 (concentration camps and civilians WWII)
Hideki Tojo (Japan, 1941-44) 5,000,000 (civilians WWII)
Pol Pot (Cambodia, 1975-79) 1,700,000
Kim Il Sung (North Korea, 1948-94) 1.6 million (purges and concentration camps)
Menghistu (Ethiopia, 1975-78) 1,500,000
Ismail Enver (Turkey, 1915) 1,200,000 Armenians
Yakubu Gowon (Biafra, 1967-1970) 1,000,000
Leonid Brezhnev (Afghanistan, 1979-1982) 900,000
Jean Kambanda (Rwanda, 1994) 800,000
Suharto (East Timor, 1976-98) 600,000
Saddam Hussein (Iran 1980-1990 and Kurdistan 1987-88) 600,000
Yahya Khan (Pakistan, 1971) vs Bangladesh 500,000
Fumimaro Konoe (Japan, 1937-39) 500,000? (Chinese civilians)
Savimbi (Angola, 1975-2002) 400,000
Mullah Omar - Taliban (Afghanistan, 1986-2001) 400,000
Idi Amin (Uganda, 1969-1979) 300,000
Benito Mussolini (Ethiopia, 1936; Yugoslavia, WWII) 300,000
Mobutu Sese Seko (Zaire, 1965-97) ?
Charles Taylor (Liberia, 1989-1996) 220,000
Foday Sankoh (Sierra Leone, 1991-2000) 200,000
Slobodan Milosevic (Yugoslavia, 1992-96) 180,000
Michel Micombero (Burundi, 1972) 150,000
Hassan Turabi (Sudan, 1989-1999) 100,000
Jean-Bedel Bokassa (Centrafrica, 1966-79) ?
Richard Nixon (Vietnam, 1969-1974) 70,000 (vietnamese civilians)
Efrain Rios Montt (Guatemala, 1982-83) 70,000
Papa Doc Duvalier (Haiti, 1957-71) 60,000
Hissene Habre (Chad, 1982-1990) 40,000
Chiang Kai-shek (Taiwan, 1947) 30,000 (popular uprising)
Vladimir Ilich Lenin (USSR, 1917-20) 30,000 (dissidents executed)
Francisco Franco (Spain) 30,000 (dissidents executed after the civil war)





Thats over 92 million people!!!! And that's just the last 100 years or so......


Indeed, it is religion that that sponsers much of the good that is done in the world today.

Of course, the ACLU is doing it's socialist best to wipe out religion in our country. A country founded on religion by men of religion.

Why doesn't thousands of years ago apply?

Anyway how does Hitler not count? Watch some history channel and you will see he pretty much wanted to create a new religion with him as the Messiah. I believe he even refered to some of his closest people as apostles from time to time. This is whithout even bringing up his extermination campaign against the Jews. Stalin was also not a big fan of the Jews.

Regardless, the Crusades, Catholic/Protestant fighting, etc. was not thousands of years ago. Should we throw out everything except the last hundred years or so?

Go check out a lot of the African fighting/genocides that have occured lately. Much of it is religious.

Bosnia ring a bell?

I won't even bring up 9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq.

I stand by my statement. Without religion a lot more people would be alive/had lived than the rest of our petty conflicts as humans have ever caused.

Who knows how far the Muslim extremist thing will go, it could potentially wipe out life on earth.

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[Umfold]

A country founded on religion by men of religion.

That's totally wrong. What are you even talking about?

Founded on religion? Nonsense.

Though some puritans did leave England because of the church, well, you'll notice that there were already people here.

(Also, though they were really after gold, many of the Europeans who came to America when it was first being explored only got funding if they agreed to 'force' the native people to accept Jesus as their god. No one knows how many native Americans died, but it is most likely 10s of millions)

But as far as the founding of America, it had nothing to do with religion.

 

[Umfold]

Oh yeah, and Hitler was a Christian, by the way. And yeah, he used the whole 'Jews killed god' thing to help his cause.

 

[Alcoholic9*]

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[SteelerFan87]

Can someone tell me 1 religion that promotes killing people? I don't mean people who claimed to be part of the religion, I mean find me examples from religious texts that say "go out and kill people". Most, if not all "holy wars" or whatever you want to call them are just examples of someone with power using and twisting and perverting religion to try to back up his desire to commit genocide. Religion is just usefull for those purposes because it's something people feel strongly about. If religion didn't exist, there would be just as much killing, if not more, because the dictators and power hungry bastards of the world would just find some other cause/belief/ideology to use to trick people into carrying out their plans.

 

[Alcoholic9*]

Can someone tell me 1 religion that promotes killing people? I don't mean people who claimed to be part of the religion, I mean find me examples from religious texts that say "go out and kill people". Most, if not all "holy wars" or whatever you want to call them are just examples of someone with power using and twisting and perverting religion to try to back up his desire to commit genocide. Religion is just usefull for those purposes because it's something people feel strongly about. If religion didn't exist, there would be just as much killing, if not more, because the dictators and power hungry bastards of the world would just find some other cause/belief/ideology to use to trick people into carrying out their plans.

It'd be much harder to convince someone to say "blow themselves up" if there wasn't a promise of say 72 virgins (which is wrong btw it's actually more ridiculous than that) waiting on the other side.

Ever seen Dogma? Silly movie but it did have a point. You can change an idea, a belief is something you're willing to die for.

Many people choose to blindly believe 2000 year old (or whatever) books (which according to someone should be thrown out because they're thousands of years old) full of stuff that just doesn't make any sense at all.

Sure, Noah got what? millions of animals on his ark? Tell me that's not a pathetic fairy tale. I imagine the Koran has similar stupid stories in it.

 

[SteelerFan87]

It'd be much harder to convince someone to say "blow themselves up" if there wasn't a promise of say 72 virgins (which is wrong btw it's actually more ridiculous than that) waiting on the other side.

Ever seen Dogma? Silly movie but it did have a point. You can change an idea, a belief is something you're willing to die for.

Many people choose to blindly believe 2000 year old (or whatever) books (which according to someone should be thrown out because they're thousands of years old) full of stuff that just doesn't make any sense at all.

Sure, Noah got what? millions of animals on his ark? Tell me that's not a pathetic fairy tale. I imagine the Koran has similar stupid stories in it.

Ok, so you don't like religion and think it doesn't make sense. But that doesn't refute my point. Ask any muslim, and I bet they'll tell you that 72 virgins thing is bullshit that was made up by people who wanted to use people's faith for their own purposes. Like I said, religion doesn't corrupt people, people corrupt religion.

 

[aloyouis]

You have to admit christianity is THE government sponsored religion though, which totally goes against the constitution. However, as long as there are millions of christians in this country, who will toss their vote to whatever politician mentions Jesus in his speeches, there's not much that can be done about it.

No we don't have to admit that Christianity is THE government-sponsored religion. Why? Nevermind.... you will talk of dollar bills and the pledge.

Question: Why is it wrong that millions of Christians will vote? Why should there "be something done about it"? Done about what? People casting their votes? What would YOU do about it? Deny Christians the right to vote? Why is a Christian voting only "tossing" their vote when everyone gets to "cast" their vote?

Even the words you choose to use (on this topic) show your discrimination towards Christians.

 

[patfanallan]

If one is to study religion they would find that much was written about Jesus Christ 90 years after he was crucified. The Bible is not the word of God but rather of men who believed in God. There is much that can be found if one is to read how the Bible was put together. Those who wrote the Bible did not have the knowledge of people today such as the vastness of the universe, how it is expanding every day and there are more suns than grains of sand at the beach. Much of religion is based on the writings of people 2,000 years ago who had no concept of the real world.

 

[aloyouis]

"To those who say that there is no Constitutional separation of Church and State (our lawyer friends can correct me if I'm wrong) the Courts are charged by the Constitution with interpreting the law, and the Courts, through precident have said there is. "


NO! The courts are charged with interpreting what the law is as described by the Constitution.

Unfortunately, they don't stick to interpreting the Constitution. They have been allowed to legislate from the bench (create law), which is expressly a Legislative branch function.

But the liberals in our society like this so they can have laws created that would NEVER be approved of by the American public. In fact it is the only way they can do it.

 

[Steve-o]

This is where the brilliance of our founding fathers comes into play. We do not live in a true democracy, and for that, I am thankful. In a true democracy, would white men have ever voted to allow women to vote? Blacks?

Our country was designed to always protect the rights of the minority. If enough Christians take over Congress and vote to make the Christianity the official religion of the U.S., we have the supreme court to determine that move is UnConstitutional. If enough anti-religious people took over and outlawed Christianity, we have the supreme court to determine that UnConstitutional.

If one man among us is not free, none of us are free.

This was the brilliance of our founding fathers. Our founding fathers who were Deists and Atheists.

I recommend reading Thomas Paine's Common Sense for a good insight on the popular religious beliefs of the men who founded this country. While he believed in God, he believed it had no place in government, or even in church, for that matter. He believed man was his own temple, and that religion should stay there.

 

[Alcoholic9*]

No we don't have to admit that Christianity is THE government-sponsored religion. Why? Nevermind.... you will talk of dollar bills and the pledge.

Question: Why is it wrong that millions of Christians will vote? Why should there "be something done about it"? Done about what? People casting their votes? What would YOU do about it? Deny Christians the right to vote? Why is a Christian voting only "tossing" their vote when everyone gets to "cast" their vote?

Even the words you choose to use (on this topic) show your discrimination towards Christians.

Go back and read what I said and stop putting words in my mouth. I have nothing against Christianity. You however appear to have a problem with me not praising it's so called values and contributions.

Vote, don't vote, do what you want. But don't tell me to blindly pretend that Republicans and Democrats alike don't kiss the asses of Christianity to get votes. If everyone were all Muslims the politicians would praise Allah in their speeches and all the lemmings would vote for them.

Here's something you really won't like....

Christianity has more blood on it's hands than like 50 Hitlers, and it start's with the death of Jesus. Oh wait, it goes back further....

How many people did God himself kill in the Old testament?

But hey, for 24 bucks a month I can sponsor a child in South America.

 

[aloyouis]

Re: If it weren't for religion

Would there be a war in Iraq? How many terrorists would blow themselves up if they didn't believe in an afterlife?

Religion is a form of brainwashing. Your religion depends on who is doing the brainwashing. Some people have figured this out.

NOT! How can you try to talk about such an important issue whilst painting with a stupefying broad brush?


Lets see: Radical Muslims are religious and brainwashed so they kill each other (and everybody else) therefore all religious people are brainwashed?

Try this: You are a male and Hitler was a male therefore all males (including me) are murderous tyrants?

Please go back and read your post.... think for a moment...and repost.

 

[aloyouis]

While I can't speak for anyone else, I'd have no problem with it. FWIW, I pay some significant money each year to send my son to a Catholic school instead of the public schools, and trust me, I'm not Catholic, (and since I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest with anyone who might be Catholic, I won't list the problems I have with the Catholic religion).

From my point of view, the people whining about the possibilty of themselves (or their kids) exposed to some religious speech, are the intolerant ones. That being said, I'd have no problem with Congress actually getting a set, and dealing with this whole issue and pass a law stating if we have "Separation of Church and State", and of course define what that actually means. Of course, as long as they ignore the whole issue, the court can make up whatever they want, and get away with it.

I agree.

 

[aloyouis]

Is there a law that says you have to be a Christian? Is there a church anywhere that calls itself the "official church of the US"? If you aren't a Christian, do you automatically get put in jail/executed/persecuted? No? Then I guess there's no government sponsored religion. There may be a religion that the majority of our government officials believe in, but in no way is anyone forced to believe in a certain faith. The people who wrote the Constitution believed in God. They may not have all been Christians, but they all believed in God. To say that they opposed religion is about as wrong as you can get. They opposed official government religions, and laws that limited religious freedom, but they did not oppose religion.

And yes, there are millions of Christians who's faith influences how they vote, but isn't that the point of democracy? In a democracy you don't impose the views of a minority on the majority that thinks differently. People will vote according to what they think is right, and that's how democracy works. If the people support Christianity, you can't just say "nope, I don't care what you all think, I'm going to say you can't have what you want, and we're going to do things my way."

As for this particular story, I think the school should do something for the kids who don't go to this bible study thing, but I don't think there's a problem with offering it. And I also have to wonder, did the kid really have a problem with the bible study, or did his mom just insist that he not go, and she's the one that's offended?

:jclap:

 

[SteelerFan87]

Christianity has more blood on it's hands than like 50 Hitlers, and it start's with the death of Jesus. Oh wait, it goes back further....

How many people did God himself kill in the Old testament?

And how many did He create?


And Steve-o, yes, the minorities are protected, but they don't have the right to impose their will on the majority.

 

[Umfold]

Re: Re: If it weren't for religion

Aloyouis, you keep saying 'the liberals'

Do you believe in Christ? How do you think JC would vote? Do you think he'd favor cutting programs that help the poor and needy in order to give tax breaks for the rich?
Do you think he'd support the NRA?
Wasn't Jesus, in fact, a lot closer to a socialist than a capitalist?

Christianity in America is the clearest case of people being used by religion for political ends.

 

[Steve-o]

While I can't speak for anyone else, I'd have no problem with it. FWIW, I pay some significant money each year to send my son to a Catholic school instead of the public schools, and trust me, I'm not Catholic, (and since I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest with anyone who might be Catholic, I won't list the problems I have with the Catholic religion).

From my point of view, the people whining about the possibilty of themselves (or their kids) exposed to some religious speech, are the intolerant ones. That being said, I'd have no problem with Congress actually getting a set, and dealing with this whole issue and pass a law stating if we have "Separation of Church and State", and of course define what that actually means. Of course, as long as they ignore the whole issue, the court can make up whatever they want, and get away with it.

I don't trust anyone to give my son a religious speech, except for me and his mother. It's nobody's business but his, to figure out on his own.

He came to me when he was about 8 or 9, and he asked me if I believed in God. I told him "no." "I don't believe in God, either" he said. "Hang on, there" I said. "You have a right to believe whatever you want to believe. I don't want you thinking the way I do, just because. I want you to explain it to me. Why don't you believe in God?" He looked at me and said "the thing that doesn't make sense to me is... who made God?"

Sorry, but I'll never agree that any teacher or adult has the right to have that conversation at such a young age, instead of me and/or his mother.

 

[SteelerFan87]

Re: Re: Re: If it weren't for religion

Aloyouis, you keep saying 'the liberals'

Do you believe in Christ? How do you think JC would vote? Do you think he'd favor cutting programs that help the poor and needy in order to give tax breaks for the rich?
Do you think he'd support the NRA?
Wasn't Jesus, in fact, a lot closer to a socialist than a capitalist?

Christianity in America is the clearest case of people being used by religion for political ends.

So, what, you're trying to say Jesus was a good, moral person? Wow, how stupid we are for following a guy like that, eh?

And I think what you mean is "Christianity in America is the clearest case of religion being used for political ends". Not by religion, but by politicians who are looking for votes.

 

[Steve-o]

And how many did He create?


And Steve-o, yes, the minorities are protected, but they don't have the right to impose their will on the majority.

And the majority doesn't have its right to impose its will on the minority. We could go around and around on this.