Seperation of Church and State?

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Darth Despot

Darth Despot

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We've managed one very constructive religeous discussion in here, so maybe we can discuss this issue without a lot of finger pointing and name calling.

http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.php?id=38466&adid=city

In light of this being an Indiana story I'd be interested in hearing from some of our Colts visitors, as well as from some of the more religeous folks, and certainly the lawyers will have a relevent opinion.

I've spent all my life in Mass (with the exception of 9 Months in Missisippi when I was 9 years old) so I'm having a hard time figuring why the school district would think this practice would pass Constitutional muster. Is this a common practice in the midwest?
 
Well, this is the first I've seen/heard of it, so this is off-the-cuff, but...

My initial reaction is, what's the big deal? They're not forcing students to go, they're not forcing those who choose NOT to go to do something else (they've got free time), it's non-denominational...

Where's the beef?

The Midwest is considered the "Bible belt", and we tend not to jump on the ACLU bandwagon over every little thing, like our big-city counterparts. In fact, in my kid's school, we still have honest-to-God Christmas programs, and the music programs always throw in some religious songs, and (gasp!) we still pray at graduations, etc. Nobody has a beef with it. We use common sense. If you want to bow your head, fine. If you don't, fine.

Like everything else these days, I tend to think that some people just want to see their names in the papers and raise a big stink.

I'm willing to be objective and discuss further - like I said, this is just my initial reaction, and I really haven't looked into it deeply or put a lot of thought into it.
 
Just like the tobacco companies....

"Get em while they're young and don't know any better." ;) :D
 
Can't speak for the Midwest, or most of it, as I'm in the Chicago area and it's a hell of a lot different around here than even most of IL, let alone the rest of the Midwest.

There have been a few issues raised about this though, in the area, and the schools that wanted some sort of prayer or bible thing were told that no teacher could be involved and it had to be before or after school hours. I think at a couple schools the kids ended up meeting by the flag pole before school for a prayer.

Now, I am all for religion. As I've mentioned before, I'm Catholic, and am usually in church every week, not just on Easter or Christmas. That being said... Religion has no room in a PUBLIC school.

I think a kid can go a few hours during the day without having to crack open a bible. And if they really feel the need to have some religious contact during the day, they can say a silent prayer to themselves.

Most churches I know, usually have youth groups that meet at least a couple times during the week, other than Sunday. Then you could have prayer time at home before going to school. The family could have a bible study at home following dinner. There is absolutely no reason to have religious study in a public school unless it's a theology course, which is completely different than bible study or prayer sessions.

And if a parent or child feel that they're still not getting enough religion into the child's life, between home and church, then send them to a parochial school. Most of them now actually have financial aid and payment plans.

Religion is fine, just keep it out of public schools. And government buildings. Course that's a whole other debate. Before senate sessions, on money, being sworn in during a trial... We should not have a government endorsed religion, which is pretty much what we have. But like I said... That's a whole other can of worms.
 
cka203 on 10-18-2006 at 02:05 PM said:
Well, this is the first I've seen/heard of it, so this is off-the-cuff, but...

My initial reaction is, what's the big deal? They're not forcing students to go, they're not forcing those who choose NOT to go to do something else (they've got free time), it's non-denominational...

Where's the beef?

The Midwest is considered the "Bible belt", and we tend not to jump on the ACLU bandwagon over every little thing, like our big-city counterparts. In fact, in my kid's school, we still have honest-to-God Christmas programs, and the music programs always throw in some religious songs, and (gasp!) we still pray at graduations, etc. Nobody has a beef with it. We use common sense. If you want to bow your head, fine. If you don't, fine.

Like everything else these days, I tend to think that some people just want to see their names in the papers and raise a big stink.

I'm willing to be objective and discuss further - like I said, this is just my initial reaction, and I really haven't looked into it deeply or put a lot of thought into it.
Click to expand...

I think thats where the beef is. I believe this woman doesn't want her child losing instructional time while they all sit around waiting for the "holly rollers" :D to get back. Perhaps they can schedule the bible study class directly after school then this poor little 8 yr old won't be tramatized any more. Well you get my drift.

This kid is going to grow up a pussy if mommy keeps stepping into things all the time. Let the kid handle his own emotions, he'll find a way to over come his emotional scaring. ROFL
 
The key here is that it's on school time. It's apparently an hour in the middle of the school day. No matter how you slice it, they're gonna come up on the wrong side of that one. If you want to do it before or after school that's one thing, but when the government demands your child's presence in school and then some of that time is allotted to a specific religion, that ain't gonna fly.

Now, on the other hand, if they wanted to have a NON-DENOMINATIONAL religious "hour", that'd be different. One in which Christians can go to their Bible class, Muslims and Hindus can do what they want, little pagan children can read up on wicca, LOL... that I can see. Or have a religious class which covers all religions over the course of a semester--Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, all the "isms" they can find. Then you're actually teaching something--not just giving time for Christians to go do their thing while everyone else stands around like Charlie Brown without a date. :D
 
I can't stand the ACLU and people who expect courts to protect them from ever having to encounter any hint of religion.

It pisses me off when I read about some kindergarten kid getting suspended for drawing a picture of Jesus hanging out with the Power Rangers. Or when some anti-religious bigot sues the school after their little Susy was traumatized by hearing a Christmas Carol on school property.

However, I do have a problem with this particular religious group. It seems to me that they're trying to stir up trouble.

Constitutional issues aside, I don't see the sense in disrupting the school day by running this religious program during school hours.

What's wrong with Sunday School...or Saturday School, or Tuesday night CCD?!?! I don't remember anyone having a problem with this (especially the kids who were smoking bones in the woods when their parents thought they were at CCD).

You want formal religious instruction as part of the school curriculum, you can always send your kids to a religious school.
 
Let's spice this up a bit...

I'm not saying it's 100% applicable in all cases, but I do think there's a direct correlation between the removal of anything remotely religious from school, and the increase in violence in school, and kids behaviour in general.

I'm only 46, but when I was in school, it was no big deal to sing Christmas songs, etc. We even had Easter egg hunts, Halloween parties, etc. We didn't have to worry about being sued if we said the word God or prayer on school property.

And we also didn't have NEAR the drug problem we do today. We didn't have gangs. We didn't have to worry about school shootings.

I'm just saying...
 
I don't have a problem with it. If the parents don't mind sending their kids to Bible study for an hour, that's great. The kids that don't go should take the hour to do some homework or read a book.
 
I agree MGO...

Just for reference,I'm from a small indiana town just about 5 minutes from Indianapolis. I'm Catholic and went to classes after church on Sunday for 11yrs..

Anyway...While I think a Lawsuit is over the top, I agree with the mothers reasoning. Taxpayers paid for the education these children are recieving, so from the time the bus picks them up until it drops them off they are on the taxpayers watch. Standardized test in Indiana are below average. Teachers often complain that with the current cirriculum, there is no time to get these kids where they need to be before they start the next grade. There is plenty of time after and before school for a prayer group.

Children at that age are very sensitive to seclusion. I don't think traumatized is a good word to described this kids feeling but I am sure he is feeling leftout and a little embarrassed that he isn't going to these classes.

As far as the lawsuit goes....how can you sue for something taxpayers pay for??? If you win, who is paying you? The local government that collected from taxpayers?
 
cka203 on 10-18-2006 at 02:56 PM said:


I'm not saying it's 100% applicable in all cases, but I do think there's a direct correlation between the removal of anything remotely religious from school, and the increase in violence in school, and kids behaviour in general.
Click to expand...

Umm.... religion has caused more violence and suffering than all wars combined and multiplied by like 1000.
 
If you are going to take religion out of school, then don't make compromises. If you are going to allow religion in school, then don't filter out certain religions.

I think the safest thing to do is allow kids some quiet time to pray or meditate or do just chill out. Anything more than that can be done outside of school time. The government already injects enough non-essential materials in the school day.

But, if you are not going to allow these kids to attend this class, then you also shouldn't allow the little Jewish boy to wear his beanie thing to school or the Muslim girl to wear her head/face covering thing to school either. These are religious in nature and if your nto got allow one thing, then you shouldn't allow anything.
 
I don't think that this should be done in the middle of the day, but rather, as some have suggested, either before or after school. What irritates me is that if this were some other religion (besides Judaism) it wouldn't be an issue, but rather chalked up to 'Cultural Diversity Awareness'-:Eason:

That being said-

ever since the cretins at the ACLU got themselves entwined with S-Ps, crap like this has been on the march. First came promoting the idea that the Constitution spells out a specific seperation of Church and State (you guys all seem pretty bright, so I'm assuming that you know that it doesn't- rather states that the government shall not establish or promote any religion). Meanwhile, our public school system is in a constant state of decline- have any of you seen the Fed Ex commercial where the guy can't find China on a map? I personally think that this commercial is idiotic, but that's a clear statement as to the quality of education that kids are getting. Self-esteem and social promotion are the order of the day, who gives a **** if the kid can read or do simple math? As long as they feel good about themselves is all that counts.

- all right, I'm sorry, I'm spouting off far too much for this subject-
 
Alcoholic9 on 10-18-2006 at 03:11 PM said:
Umm.... religion has caused more violence and suffering than all wars combined and multiplied by like 1000.
Click to expand...

To be fair, religion has also been the source of most of the great cultural works of man....Art, music, architecture, literature, etc.

Not to mention the great number of the world's schools, universities, and hospitals that have been founded and run by religious groups.
 
cka203 on 10-18-2006 at 02:56 PM said:
Let's spice this up a bit...

I'm not saying it's 100% applicable in all cases, but I do think there's a direct correlation between the removal of anything remotely religious from school, and the increase in violence in school, and kids behaviour in general.

I'm only 46, but when I was in school, it was no big deal to sing Christmas songs, etc. We even had Easter egg hunts, Halloween parties, etc. We didn't have to worry about being sued if we said the word God or prayer on school property.

And we also didn't have NEAR the drug problem we do today. We didn't have gangs. We didn't have to worry about school shootings.

I'm just saying...
Click to expand...

Well, since we're spicing things - I couldn't disagree more. It's certaintly probable that the increase of violence in school/kid's behaviour is due to removal of anything religious from the HOME not the school.
Religion doesn't belong in a public school; kids should not be removed from class for non-denominational bible study, which is ridiculous anyway since not all religions study the bible. The point of PUBLIC school is education with a curriculum that includes all students; I would be pissed if my kid sat around for an hour with nothing to do during the school day because I didn't want him studying the bible - if you want your kids to study the bible on school time, there are private schools for that.
In this particular case I think it should try to be handled without calling the ACLU; things have certainly got out of hand with the lawsuits.
But back to the first point generally kids look first to their parents for guidelines on how to behave and treat others, when not to shoot up the school, etc. Religious studies in school that emphasize only one or two (i.e., not a general course studying the different religions in a non-judgmental manner) would only promote divisiveness, IMO.
 
Alcoholic9 on 10-18-2006 at 03:11 PM said:
Umm.... religion has caused more violence and suffering than all wars combined and multiplied by like 1000.
Click to expand...

Wrong! People misinterpreting religion have caused the violence.
 
Grogsox has a good point. I would think a class on the different religions and their various POVs would be a good thing. Hate is usually caused by fear and misunderstanding, as well as the prejudices learned at home. Some non-biased (though there's the rub) education on why others don't believe as you do would be a good thing.
 
Having grown up 28 years in Indiana, and being on the opposite end of the majority on this issue, I couldn't wait to get out of the lash of the Bible belt.

It amazes me that there are still people with the gall to pull crap like this. Here is the problem: this is on school time, so there's no such thing as "free" time. The teachers are still earning their tax dollars leading prayer sessions, and the kids who aren't attending these are sitting there getting no education for those dollars. So, even if you're not Christian, you're paying for other people to be.

I truly don't understand why school prayer is even an issue. I'm not religious, but if I was, I would want to be the one giving my son his daily lessons in morality, rather than some teacher.

Demanding prayer in school is simply another shirking of parental responsibilities, in my opinion.

(heh. Good ol' IDS. I spent three semesters workin' for that paper!)
 
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