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Landry too.
those last years really hurt the legacy, a lot. Bill seems to adapt better than those, and pretty much everyone else.
Who is the 5th best coach of all time?
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those last years really hurt the legacy, a lot. Bill seems to adapt better than those, and pretty much everyone else.
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great name to add.
another name. Bud Grant. He couldn't win like Shula
---------- Post added at 04:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:06 PM ----------
Cower, Levy, Stram, Shanny, vermeil were all next level guys
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no Tuna love because he was a nomad, travelling Gypsy
foley11
I am anti progress
I agree Shula hung (and Landry) hung on too long and lost interest but what they accomplished can't be taken away from them.
Landry comes in at 6 for me.
foley11
I am anti progress
He hung on and stacked the record books with longevity, while simultaneously stifling Marino's chances.
You know, thinking back, Levy's Bills played a role in this as well by throttling the division for many of those years.
Noll was an interesting guy. Quite the shy loner actually. He hated the limelight part of coaching.
I wonder how many here know that Noll was almost the Patriots HC? It's true. The Pats were deciding between Clive Rush and Noll. The Steelers were interested in Noll and Joe Paterno. The Pats chose Rush so the Steelers chose Noll. The Pats lost out on a great coach. Just imagine.
Anyway, Bud Carson was the GM who put that great roster together for the Steelers & Noll was a brilliant coach. He learned the game during his HOF career with the Browns under HC Paul Brown but he was taught to coach under the great Sid Gillman as an asst. coach for the Chargers. Those are 2 damn good mentors, I'd say. The Steel Curtain? 4 Lombardis? Oh, yeah. He's in my top 10.
The Pats had decided to take either Rush (OC of the Jets) or Noll (DC of the Colts) based on the outcome of SB III.
The Pats had decided to take either Rush (OC of the Jets) or Noll (DC of the Colts) based on the outcome of SB III.
Yep, that's what happened. Rush lasted less than 2 years. Eccentric is being kind.
Being electrocuted at the introduction press conference should have been an omen.
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Giant Octopodes
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I'm very surprised that Halas is the one I'm getting pushback on. I figured if anything it would be Lombardi, just based on his career length and thus win total.
Rest assured, I'm not including Halas because of how 'beloved' he may be, it was just based on his resume. The primary ones I've seen raised are Shula and Walsh, let's compare them directly and see how they stack up:
Wins
Shula- 347 Wins, 1st all time. 173 Losses, .665 Record (9th among Head Coaches w/ min 50 wins)
Halas- 324 Wins, 2nd all time. 151 losses, .671 record (8th among Head Coaches w/ min 50 wins)
Walsh- 102 wins, 46th all time. 63 losses, .617 record (18th among Head Coaches w/ min 50 wins)
Championships
Halas- 6 (Tied- most all time)
Walsh- 3 (Tied- 5th most all time)
Shula- 3 (Tied- 5th most all time). Note: One of his Championships was the NFL Championship in 68, which was subsequently renamed the NFC Championship, and he failed to win the Super Bowl that year. Since it was pre-merger, he's credited with an NFL Championship. Your call if it's deserved.
Longevity and Diversity of Talent
Halas- Coached for 47 years, won in the 2nd year in the league, won in 1963 (after Lombardi won his first 2). Won with 4 different QBs, running 4 very different offensive systems.
Shula- Coached for 32 years, won a championship (but lost the Super Bowl) in 1968, won his last Super Bowl 5 years later, in 1973. Won on 2 different teams, with 2 different QBs running 2 different systems.
Walsh- Coached for 10 years, won in 1981, last won in 1988. Won with two different QBs, running the same system.
Historical Impact
George Halas- Helped form the NFL. The only individual in NFL history to play on Offense and Defense as well as acting as a Head Coach, General Manager, and an Owner. Created new offensive formations and schemes. Acted as a player and head coach simultaneously. Won a championship, stepped away to serve as a Lieutenant in the Navy during World War II, and won a championship upon his return. Represented unparalleled dominance for 2 decades and maintained relevance of a franchise for 4.
Bill Walsh- Formed the last "new" offense in the NFL. Served as a head coach and a general manager. Made the 49ers the most dominant team of the 80s.
Don Shula- Had the only perfect season (0 losses in the regular and post season) in NFL history.
Challenges and Contemporaries
Halas- Faced different teams and schedules Every Year or close to it for nearly the first 20 years of his career. Faced Paul Brown, Vince Lombardi, Tom Landry, among others. Had to adapt to an ever evolving game and league. Career interrupted by World War II.
Shula- No meaningful unique challenges. Faced Bill Walsh, George Halas, Joe Gibbs, among others.
Walsh- No meaningful unique challenges. Faced Don Shula, Joe Gibbs, Chuck Noll, among others.
Am I missing something? With those resumes, is Halas really the weakest of the 3? Those who think Halas is not a top 5 coach, why not? What elevates the others above him? Is it really just that Shula won 23 more games (and lost 22 more games as well)?
Rest assured, I'm not including Halas because of how 'beloved' he may be, it was just based on his resume. The primary ones I've seen raised are Shula and Walsh, let's compare them directly and see how they stack up:
Wins
Shula- 347 Wins, 1st all time. 173 Losses, .665 Record (9th among Head Coaches w/ min 50 wins)
Halas- 324 Wins, 2nd all time. 151 losses, .671 record (8th among Head Coaches w/ min 50 wins)
Walsh- 102 wins, 46th all time. 63 losses, .617 record (18th among Head Coaches w/ min 50 wins)
Championships
Halas- 6 (Tied- most all time)
Walsh- 3 (Tied- 5th most all time)
Shula- 3 (Tied- 5th most all time). Note: One of his Championships was the NFL Championship in 68, which was subsequently renamed the NFC Championship, and he failed to win the Super Bowl that year. Since it was pre-merger, he's credited with an NFL Championship. Your call if it's deserved.
Longevity and Diversity of Talent
Halas- Coached for 47 years, won in the 2nd year in the league, won in 1963 (after Lombardi won his first 2). Won with 4 different QBs, running 4 very different offensive systems.
Shula- Coached for 32 years, won a championship (but lost the Super Bowl) in 1968, won his last Super Bowl 5 years later, in 1973. Won on 2 different teams, with 2 different QBs running 2 different systems.
Walsh- Coached for 10 years, won in 1981, last won in 1988. Won with two different QBs, running the same system.
Historical Impact
George Halas- Helped form the NFL. The only individual in NFL history to play on Offense and Defense as well as acting as a Head Coach, General Manager, and an Owner. Created new offensive formations and schemes. Acted as a player and head coach simultaneously. Won a championship, stepped away to serve as a Lieutenant in the Navy during World War II, and won a championship upon his return. Represented unparalleled dominance for 2 decades and maintained relevance of a franchise for 4.
Bill Walsh- Formed the last "new" offense in the NFL. Served as a head coach and a general manager. Made the 49ers the most dominant team of the 80s.
Don Shula- Had the only perfect season (0 losses in the regular and post season) in NFL history.
Challenges and Contemporaries
Halas- Faced different teams and schedules Every Year or close to it for nearly the first 20 years of his career. Faced Paul Brown, Vince Lombardi, Tom Landry, among others. Had to adapt to an ever evolving game and league. Career interrupted by World War II.
Shula- No meaningful unique challenges. Faced Bill Walsh, George Halas, Joe Gibbs, among others.
Walsh- No meaningful unique challenges. Faced Don Shula, Joe Gibbs, Chuck Noll, among others.
Am I missing something? With those resumes, is Halas really the weakest of the 3? Those who think Halas is not a top 5 coach, why not? What elevates the others above him? Is it really just that Shula won 23 more games (and lost 22 more games as well)?
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quick answer
the posters here are all too young to know who he really was as a coach.
Unless they've watched "Brian's Song".
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Jack Warden was a hell of a coach
AnOldTroll
Russel brand
I am a homer but come on. The Emperor changed a culture. Also, check out how the kids he coached turned out...
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Giant Octopodes
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I think it's definitely appropriate for him to be in the conversation. I'd put him in there along with Shula, Gibbs, Landry, Walsh, as far as definitely being top 10 talents, with of course as always their rankings being subjective and arguable.
Those 4 combined with the 4 I already had gives us a pretty solid top 8 too as far as I can see, and I'm curious if any heretofore unmentioned names crop up repeatedly to see if I can't get a fairly consensus top 10.
However as far as putting him in the top 5, he doesn't have the historical impact of a Halas or a Walsh, in terms of developing new systems or overseeing drastic changes in the league. He doesn't have the wins of a Shula, or the incredible consistency of a Landry. He may be a fine leader of men, but the fairly consensus best of those was Lombardi.
He's a runner up in a lot of categories, and for me personally I like to pack my top 5 and 10s wtih #1s from a variety of perspectives, different people who could be considered for #1 depending on what you value more.
Does Noll have anything truly unique, a signature accomplishment or spot in the record or history books which gives him a meaningful argument as to how he could be the GOAT, no matter how myopically you have to squint to see it? If he does I'd love to hear about it, but as it stands, I could see ranking him highly, but I'm not sure he would crack my personal top 5. Would you disagree?
AnOldTroll
Russel brand
Yes I would. Took over a perennial loser from 1-13 in 69 to 4 rings in the 70's, Could have been 5 because his best team never got that chance... That is how I remember it. Chuck Noll was the epitome of unique.
I think so. 25% of his teams had losing years and it took him an awful long time to get his 324 wins.
Halas had 4 stints as their head coach from 1920 to 1967, in 10 year intervals interrupted by the Great Depression, WWII and a brief rest in '55. His big contribution to the NFL was the T formation offense. He was hard nosed but he wasn't an innovator. Plus in the '20s and '30s the NFL wasn't popular and the original owner, AE Staley was losing money so he gave the club to Halas who became the player/coach. This was a time when playing football was a side job for the players. Halas himself sold starch to general stores. Football simply wasn't taken seriously back then. His longevity to reach 324 wins is the very reason he isn't in my top 5. In '46 he took over a team that went 11-0 in '45 and won the championship. From '47 to '62 his teams were average although he won the '63 championship. Overall, the last few years his record wasn't good. He was a good coach even though 25% of his teams had losing records. He wasn't truly revered by the league and fans outside Chicago until his later years when he became the fatherly owner of the franchise.
He's top 10, but not top 5. Each franchise's history would have been so different if the Colts had won SB III, although Billy Sullivan still would have found a way to screw it up.