Miami Christmas Thoughts

[AllWorldTE]

Is it scary to anyone that when Brady is moving players around and calling some of the plays in hurry up and empty shotgun that we move the ball better than when the play is sent in from the sideline?

I don't see what is so scary about it. It's a strategy this team has perfected in recent years. BB, BOB, the rest of the offensive staff and Brady all have input. They develop packages during the week built on personnel and concepts designed to attack what the defense does by personnel and D&D. BOB puts the package on the field. BOB sends the plays in the same way they do when they huddle. Brady makes the checks based on the plan they worked on during the week. None of what they do in no huddle is done on the fly...none of it. Even their hurry up no huddle is scripted and practiced several times during the week. There are adjustments and improvisations made during the game of course but they are also discussed and everyone is or should be on the same page. It's a group effort with Brady as the point man.

 

[midgar8784]

I don't see what is so scary about it. It's a strategy this team has perfected in recent years. BB, BOB, the rest of the offensive staff and Brady all have input. They develop packages during the week built on personnel and concepts designed to attack what the defense does by personnel and D&D. BOB puts the package on the field. BOB sends the plays in the same way they do when they huddle. Brady makes the checks based on the plan they worked on during the week. None of what they do in no huddle is done on the fly...none of it. Even their hurry up no huddle is scripted and practiced several times during the week. There are adjustments and improvisations made during the game of course but they are also discussed and everyone is or should be on the same page. It's a group effort with Brady as the point man.

Let me throw this at you...it seems that when we no huddle, it gives Brady more time to look over the defense and make some changes, as when we huddle he is going right down to the last second trying to do all the adjustments, could that be one of the reasons it has more success? Are the plays late getting in, or is Brady just taking more than normal time to make the adjustments?

 

[chevss454]

I don't see what is so scary about it. It's a strategy this team has perfected in recent years. BB, BOB, the rest of the offensive staff and Brady all have input. They develop packages during the week built on personnel and concepts designed to attack what the defense does by personnel and D&D. BOB puts the package on the field. BOB sends the plays in the same way they do when they huddle. Brady makes the checks based on the plan they worked on during the week. None of what they do in no huddle is done on the fly...none of it. Even their hurry up no huddle is scripted and practiced several times during the week. There are adjustments and improvisations made during the game of course but they are also discussed and everyone is or should be on the same page. It's a group effort with Brady as the point man.

No one can argue with that expert analysis.
(It might be a bit scary for the opponents trying to keep up, however.)

 

[AllWorldTE]

Oh I know, and I am not really putting this against O'Brien...I just wonder why it seems that they cannot see on film which plays work the best and call those more in games? I mean do we really need to call a 7 step drop streaks when Brady is getting mashed on every drop back? Maybe thats not the best play for that situation.

Could you point out the plays calls you're talking about because I'd like to watch them. What you are seeing may not be what is happening. Pass concepts often feature vertical and horizontal stretches and deep clearing routes designed to get short receivers open. It's a huge part of the Pats' pass game structure. I saw Brady pass up a wide open Gronk sitting low the other day looking for another throw and take a hit. Brady passes up open receivers regularly looking for bigger plays. It doesn't always work out. That's on Brady not the coaching staff who designed the play. I'd bet if we looked at the plays you're referring to we might see a more balanced situation that you are presenting here.

Its not only the hurry up, its the no huddle, which might be the same thing, but it might not be the same play calls. I am still seeing play calls when they huddle that I just cannot understand why that play was called in that situation. I mean sometimes its really mind boggling. I would watch the steelers call these 7 step drops when their oline could not protect and I could not understand why they would not change it up when they see it didnt work, now I am seeing that here.

The plan coming into the game is developed during the week. They come in with a plan which is scripted. They want to call the scripted plays and are very disciplined in their calls because these calls are used to tell them what the opponent's defensive plan is against those looks and the early calls set up later calls. They want success early but if the defense is successful early, they are still going to stick to their game plan and adjust as they collect the information they are looking for.

If your complaint is specific to the Miami game, keep in mind that the injuries to Light and Mankins pretty much killed their established game plan going in. They were prepared to handle it though which is a credit to the staff. Also keep in mind that Miami isn't a real heavy blitz team but that they showed up with a strong blitz package in this game. The Pats used the protections they thought would work coming in. Give the Fins some credit, they did a great job early and the Pats were out of sync with the line-up changes and other factors. To the staff's credit, the found the solution to the problem and the squad made it work.

 

[midgar8784]

Could you point out the plays calls you're talking about because I'd like to watch them. What you are seeing may not be what is happening. Pass concepts often feature vertical and horizontal stretches and deep clearing routes designed to get short receivers open. It's a huge part of the Pats' pass game structure. I saw Brady pass up a wide open Gronk sitting low the other day looking for another throw and take a hit. Brady passes up open receivers regularly looking for bigger plays. It doesn't always work out. That's on Brady not the coaching staff who designed the play. I'd bet if we looked at the plays you're referring to we might see a more balanced situation that you are presenting here.





The plan coming into the game is developed during the week. They come in with a plan which is scripted. They want to call the scripted plays and are very disciplined in their calls because these calls are used to tell them what the opponent's defensive plan is against those looks and the early calls set up later calls. They want success early but if the defense is successful early, they are still going to stick to their game plan and adjust as they collect the information they are looking for.

If your complaint is specific to the Miami game, keep in mind that the injuries to Light and Mankins pretty much killed their established game plan going in. They were prepared to handle it though which is a credit to the staff. Also keep in mind that Miami isn't a real heavy blitz team but that they showed up with a strong blitz package in this game. The Pats used the protections they thought would work coming in. Give the Fins some credit, they did a great job early and the Pats were out of sync with the line-up changes and other factors. To the staff's credit, the found the solution to the problem and the squad made it work.

What I am saying referring to the second part is when they go to a no huddle, it seems to give Brady time pre snap to make some adjustments that he does not have when they huddle and I was wondering if that is one of the reasons for it being more successful. I watch quite a bit of other games where QB's get the call in and just line up and run the play...I guess that is where I am asking, due to whatever Brady is doing before the snap taking a bit longer is going to no huddle making that easier to complete all the pre snap adjustments. Hope that makes sense.


As to the other part, so what you are saying is that the plays that are called are designed to not have Brady take a hit, but Brady is not following that guideline and doing other things which is getting him sacked? If that is the case, why are they letting him do that?

 

[AllWorldTE]

Let me throw this at you...it seems that when we no huddle, it gives Brady more time to look over the defense and make some changes, as when we huddle he is going right down to the last second trying to do all the adjustments, could that be one of the reasons it has more success? Are the plays late getting in, or is Brady just taking more than normal time to make the adjustments?

Very rarely does a play come in late to the Pats huddle. They are on the line with plenty of time almost all the time. Brady has all the time he needs at the LOS whether he comes out of the huddle or not. Things get tight when the defense is disguising and Brady is milking it to get the correct calls or audibles made.

No huddle does several things. If hurry's the Tempo at the LOS preventing the defense from switching personnel and forces the defense to make quick calls and limits their ability to use exotic defensive calls because the threat of a quick snap is present. If your third down pressure package is built around a sub like Mark Anderson and you can't get him on the field because the offense is running no huddle, that package is unavailable to the DC. He has to make the calls specific to the personnel on the field, which the no huddle is dictating.

The no huddle combined with the personnel group running it is key to the game planning that goes on. The Pats have run no huddle packages from many difefrent groups this season., not just empty groups of which they have several of those. They often carry heavy no huddle packages into games featuring TE's and compressed formations, it's not all spread stuff.

Miami did some nice stuff on defense the other day. When the Pats went empty early with the RB group in which they split the RB out wide to gain match-ups inside with Welk/Gronk/Hernandez against an LB, Miami countered by bringing the CB inside to match-up and lined the LB out wide on the RB, which is a pretty standard response for the Pats against that look but a lot of teams don't do that. This gave the Fins favorable match-ups.

BOB responded with an empty no huddle group featuring no running backs with Ocho split wide dictating CB coverage on him and a match-up advantage inside. The package also features several plays when Hernandez lined up in the backfield where he released on a big catch and ran the ball. This was a fantastic game plan wrinkle that gained the Pats an advantage on that particular drive.

There are a lot of factors for the success of the no huddle. It's certainly not as simple as Brady making calls himself at the LOS.

 

[AllWorldTE]

What I am saying referring to the second part is when they go to a no huddle, it seems to give Brady time pre snap to make some adjustments that he does not have when they huddle and I was wondering if that is one of the reasons for it being more successful. I watch quite a bit of other games where QB's get the call in and just line up and run the play...I guess that is where I am asking, due to whatever Brady is doing before the snap taking a bit longer is going to no huddle making that easier to complete all the pre snap adjustments. Hope that makes sense.

That's the empty package you're thinking of. When they go empty, they see the defensive call and adjust to it. If defenses are really screwing around Brady will use freeze calls to force the D to tip it's hands. If you look at them when they huddle up, you'll see he often makes the same calls and adjustments and has just as much time to get it done. In no huddle, Brady often snaps the ball with 12 or so seconds left on the clock that he doesn't use.

As to the other part, so what you are saying is that the plays that are called are designed to not have Brady take a hit, but Brady is not following that guideline and doing other things which is getting him sacked? If that is the case, why are they letting him do that?

No plays are designed to get a QB hit (when he's throwing the ball) but the other guys are on scholarship too. There are different types of pass plays. There are single elimination read passes and there are progression passes. If the first receiver in the progression is open, the QB should throw him the ball. It's an old coaching maxim, "don't pass up an open receiver." Brady is human and he makes mistakes. He's been pretty honest about that during his career. It's not simply a matter of letting him do it. They coach him up when he makes mistakes. BOB coached Brady up pretty hard a few weeks ago when BOB thought he screwed up. He doesn't make a lot and he gets away things many QBs don't because he is better than them.

 

[midgar8784]

That's the empty package you're thinking of. When they go empty, they see the defensive call and adjust to it. If defenses are really screwing around Brady will use freeze calls to force the D to tip it's hands. If you look at them when they huddle up, you'll see he often makes the same calls and adjustments and has just as much time to get it done. In no huddle, Brady often snaps the ball with 12 or so seconds left on the clock that he doesn't use.




No plays are designed to get a QB hit (when he's throwing the ball) but the other guys are on scholarship too. There are different types of pass plays. There are single elimination read passes and there are progression passes. If the first receiver in the progression is open, the QB should throw him the ball. It's an old coaching maxim, "don't pass up an open receiver." Brady is human and he makes mistakes. He's been pretty honest about that during his career. It's not simply a matter of letting him do it. They coach him up when he makes mistakes. BOB coached Brady up pretty hard a few weeks ago when BOB thought he screwed up. He doesn't make a lot and he gets away things many QBs don't because he is better than them.

It seems this year Brady is getting hit more than usual. In fact that one hit from denver was about the hardest I have seen him get hit. Is this due to...line protection, Brady not making the right read, or playcalling. If its Brady why has it been worse this year than in years prior? Sorry for all these questions, but it seems for whatever reason this year, during some portions of the game, Brady is taking major pressure that I usually do not see.

 

[AllWorldTE]

I just skimmed through the first half against Miami. I charted over thirty offensive snaps with Middy's posts in mind.

There were no nine or seven step drop passes called in the first half.

There were three Play Action passes and Brady was hit on all of them. The first two were intermediate patterns. Bennie missed his block on the first, On the second, Brady wanted Hernandez who was triple covered and was sacked when he pulled the ball down after Solder was beat as a TE in Max protection. The third was a deep pattern out of max protection when Brady had to run because no one was open.

Most of Brady's throws were short patterns and fast paced throws. A quick pass on third down to Welk was broken up by Davis. There were a few five step patterns but the majority of Brady's drop backs were of the big three step variety mostly out of shotgun.

It's impossible to chart with 100% accuracy because we are often watching BB scratch his balls in between plays but I did my best. Of what I could see, the Pats ran 23 plays from the huddle and 8 plays from no huddle.

From the huddle, the play clock showed the following seconds at the snap: 7, 20, 12 (Audible), 12, 4 (Protection Check), 4, 40, 12, 4 (Audible), 12, 40, 1 (protection check), ?, 11, 11, 8, 17, 12 (Audible), 6, 17, 11, & 11.

From the no huddle: 14 (Audible), quick snap, quick snap, quick snap, 14 (audible), quick snap, quick snap, 12.

Based on these numbers, I see Brady having all the time he needs at the LOS from both huddle and no huddle. In fact, he's usually quicker getting the ball snapped from no huddle because he's trying to force the defense's hand by limiting their time to call, set-up, disguise and execute their blitz package. When he needs to make changes he has the time. The play came into the huddle a little later on a couple third downs, probably because BOB was waiting to see what personnel package Miami sent onto the field in response to the package the Pats presented by Brady still had time to do what he needed to do.

When the Pats went no huddle, they used a variety of base formations, spread formations, compressed formations and empty formations.

There were several critical third downs in this half which were not picked up by the offense. I saw Brady audible to a pass (to Welk) on third and short which was broken up by Davis on a bang/bang play. I saw Brady on a five step drop take a hit after passing up a wide open Gronk in the flat waiting for the deeper throw to come open. Gronk was hot and was open. Brady looked at him and passed him up most likely because he wanted to get the first via the pass rather than through YAC. He took a hit because of that decision.

I saw Brady miss a wide open Welk on third and medium and saw him miss a wide open Gronk in the Flat just before the half.

The Pats called some quick snap runs and a PA screen to try to dictate to Miami but the Fins were well prepared.


I saw a well prepared and well executing Miami defense having success against a Pat's offense that was having execution problems.

 

[midgar8784]

I just skimmed through the first half against Miami. I charted over thirty offensive snaps with Middy's posts in mind.

There were no nine or seven step drop passes called in the first half.

There were three Play Action passes and Brady was hit on all of them. The first two were intermediate patterns. Bennie missed his block on the first, On the second, Brady wanted Hernandez who was triple covered and was sacked when he pulled the ball down after Solder was beat as a TE in Max protection. The third was a deep pattern out of max protection when Brady had to run because no one was open.

Most of Brady's throws were short patterns and fast paced throws. A quick pass on third down to Welk was broken up by Davis. There were a few five step patterns but the majority of Brady's drop backs were of the big three step variety mostly out of shotgun.

It's impossible to chart with 100% accuracy because we are often watching BB scratch his balls in between plays but I did my best. Of what I could see, the Pats ran 23 plays from the huddle and 8 plays from no huddle.

From the huddle, the play clock showed the following seconds at the snap: 7, 20, 12 (Audible), 12, 4 (Protection Check), 4, 40, 12, 4 (Audible), 12, 40, 1 (protection check), ?, 11, 11, 8, 17, 12 (Audible), 6, 17, 11, & 11.

From the no huddle: 14 (Audible), quick snap, quick snap, quick snap, 14 (audible), quick snap, quick snap, 12.

Based on these numbers, I see Brady having all the time he needs at the LOS from both huddle and no huddle. In fact, he's usually quicker getting the ball snapped from no huddle because he's trying to force the defense's hand by limiting their time to call, set-up, disguise and execute their blitz package. When he needs to make changes he has the time. The play came into the huddle a little later on a couple third downs, probably because BOB was waiting to see what personnel package Miami sent onto the field in response to the package the Pats presented by Brady still had time to do what he needed to do.

When the Pats went no huddle, they used a variety of base formations, spread formations, compressed formations and empty formations.

There were several critical third downs in this half which were not picked up by the offense. I saw Brady audible to a pass (to Welk) on third and short which was broken up by Davis on a bang/bang play. I saw Brady on a five step drop take a hit after passing up a wide open Gronk in the flat waiting for the deeper throw to come open. Gronk was hot and was open. Brady looked at him and passed him up most likely because he wanted to get the first via the pass rather than through YAC. He took a hit because of that decision.

I saw Brady miss a wide open Welk on third and medium and saw him miss a wide open Gronk in the Flat just before the half.

The Pats called some quick snap runs and a PA screen to try to dictate to Miami but the Fins were well prepared.


I saw a well prepared and well executing Miami defense having success against a Pat's offense that was having execution problems.

So basically the protection issues of the first half were on Brady? So I guess with what you said, why is it when the offense starts to have issues, they go to no huddle and all of the sudden all throws are on the button, and they are going down the field as if they were running 7 on 7 drills? Why is it so much better and why is Brady have so much more trouble this year with sacks and getting hit than usual, what is he doing that is causing this issue and why is it so intermittent? It just seems so night and day in the miami game, all of the sudden there is protection, Brady has time, Brady is not getting hit, passes are perfect, receivers are getting open, etc etc. There just seems to have to be more than one issue I guess.

 

[AllWorldTE]

It seems this year Brady is getting hit more than usual. In fact that one hit from denver was about the hardest I have seen him get hit. Is this due to...line protection, Brady not making the right read, or playcalling. If its Brady why has it been worse this year than in years prior? Sorry for all these questions, but it seems for whatever reason this year, during some portions of the game, Brady is taking major pressure that I usually do not see.

This is an impossible question to answer because we don't know for certain if Brady is really getting hit more than he has in the past or not. Someone would have to watch an awful lot of film to make that determination. Perception and reality are often two different things.

So basically the protection issues of the first half were on Brady? So I guess with what you said, why is it when the offense starts to have issues, they go to no huddle and all of the sudden all throws are on the button, and they are going down the field as if they were running 7 on 7 drills? Why is it so much better and why is Brady have so much more trouble this year with sacks and getting hit than usual, what is he doing that is causing this issue and why is it so intermittent? It just seems so night and day in the miami game, all of the sudden there is protection, Brady has time, Brady is not getting hit, passes are perfect, receivers are getting open, etc etc. There just seems to have to be more than one issue I guess.

Many factors go into a QB taking a hit. Sometimes it is a blocker getting beat individually (Bennie last week), sometimes it's poor recognition and execution (Woody & Mankins last week, Solder on the hit in Denver you referenced), sometimes it's on the receivers misreading coverage or inability to get open (the Max PA Pass last week), sometimes it's on the QB (Brady passing up a hot and open Gronk last week) sometimes a combination of factors and sometimes it's the play call. A great play call against the wrong defense is a loosing proposition. It's everyone's responsibility to protect the QB in the pass game from the coaching staff to the QB himself.

The Pats used eight no huddle plays in the first half and failed to get anything going. It doesn't always cook. They made adjustments, got some breaks and got into a rhythm in the second half.

 

[midgar8784]

This is an impossible question to answer because we don't know for certain if Brady is really getting hit more than he has in the past or not. Someone would have to watch an awful lot of film to make that determination. Perception and reality are often two different things.

Many factors go into a QB taking a hit. Sometimes it is a blocker getting beat individually (Bennie last week), sometimes it's poor recognition and execution (Woody & Mankins last week, Solder on the hit in Denver you referenced), sometimes it's on the receivers misreading coverage or inability to get open (the Max PA Pass last week), sometimes it's on the QB (Brady passing up a hot and open Gronk last week) sometimes a combination of factors and sometimes it's the play call. A great play call against the wrong defense is a loosing proposition. It's everyone's responsibility to protect the QB in the pass game from the coaching staff to the QB himself.

They showed a stat on ESPN, that Brady has been hit 65 times in the last 10 weeks. They showed a comparison that had him hit 33 times in the 10 games before that. That hit by Dumerville, I mean, when was the last time you have seen Brady take a clean wide open shot. I usually do not see wide open players running free at Brady as much as I have lately. Usually sacks are a result of coverage and usually Brady can cover up and go down a bit easier, also he seems to be running way more than he usually does.

 

[AllWorldTE]

They showed a stat on ESPN, that Brady has been hit 65 times in the last 10 weeks. They showed a comparison that had him hit 33 times in the 10 games before that. That hit by Dumerville, I mean, when was the last time you have seen Brady take a clean wide open shot. I usually do not see wide open players running free at Brady as much as I have lately. Usually sacks are a result of coverage and usually Brady can cover up and go down a bit easier, also he seems to be running way more than he usually does.

I would have to watch every game to make any determination on the reason these numbers are what they are. I suspect it's a combination of what we've talked about.

Loosing Koppen, and having to play so many other guys at center has to have hurt. Vollmer and Mankins having down years and new guys on the line new to the unit (Solder & Waters) hasn't helped either and having Faulk playing such a limited role probably has contributed as well as he's been the Pats best pass protecting Back for many years and they are playing backs who aren't nearly as good at it yet.

There's many factors involved.

 

[midgar8784]

I would have to watch every game to make any determination on the reason these numbers are what they are. I suspect it's a combination of what we've talked about.

Loosing Koppen, and having to play so many other guys at center has to have hurt. Vollmer and Mankins having down years and new guys on the line new to the unit (Sloder & Waters) hasn't helped either and having Faulk playing such a limited role probably has contributed as well as he's been the Pats best pass protecting Back for many years and they are playing backs who aren't nearly as good at it yet.

There's many factors involved.

and I am probably way over analyzing it. Thanks man.

 

[AllWorldTE]

and I am probably way over analyzing it. Thanks man.

Your kidding...no one over analyzes this stuff more than me....I love it though!

 

[PatsFanLisa]

How many times do you hit the stop/reverse on your TV?

Just wondering.

 

[Oswlek]

They showed a stat on ESPN, that Brady has been hit 65 times in the last 10 weeks. They showed a comparison that had him hit 33 times in the 10 games before that. That hit by Dumerville, I mean, when was the last time you have seen Brady take a clean wide open shot. I usually do not see wide open players running free at Brady as much as I have lately. Usually sacks are a result of coverage and usually Brady can cover up and go down a bit easier, also he seems to be running way more than he usually does.

He still is in the top 10 in fewest QB hits on the season, maybe even in the top 5. And that Dumerville hit was one of only three times anyone laid a finger on him the entire game.

They've had some issues, but I think your perception might not be aligned with how things have played out in the past. It isn't like NE has always stonewalled Miami.

 

[AllWorldTE]

How many times do you hit the stop/reverse on your TV?

Just wondering.

That depends on what I'm looking for/at and how clear a view I get. I might watch one play a hundred times and the next once. If I'm looking at Pats' tape it's usually three or four times for most plays unless something real nice catches my eye and then I re-watch it a bunch of times (like that route Welk ran the other day-so sweet).

 

[midgar8784]

He still is in the top 10 in fewest QB hits on the season, maybe even in the top 5. And that Dumerville hit was one of only three times anyone laid a finger on him the entire game.

They've had some issues, but I think your perception might not be aligned with how things have played out in the past. It isn't like NE has always stonewalled Miami.

brady is tied for 14th in Qb hits not top 5. Last year he was 3rd in hits, so it has been worse at least this year than last year. So my perception is not that off. He has 67 hits so far through 15 games, last year he had 52 through 16 games.

 

[PatsFanLisa]

That depends on what I'm looking for/at and how clear a view I get. I might watch one play a hundred times and the next once. If I'm looking at Pats' tape it's usually three or four times for most plays unless something real nice catches my eye and then I re-watch it a bunch of times (like that route Welk ran the other day-so sweet).

So basically you're saying it takes you about two weeks to analyze a game?