No Mega Playmakers on D....True? Flaw?

[DarrylStingley]

I see just as many on the 09 team. Name the playmakers on the 2004 team.

I would but you could just read up thread when I did that already. And Owwlek did at the same time I did, too.

I hope you're right and, as of now, don't see it, about the 09 D.

Now, that said, it's not that I think you're wrong. I just don't see it, yet.

 

[Oswlek]

I would but you could just read up thread when I did that already. And Owwlek did at the same time I did, too.

I hope you're right and, as of now, don't see it, about the 09 D.

Now, that said, it's not that I think you're wrong. I just don't see it, yet.

You will.

 

[midgar8784]

The first half is when the problems should be most pronounced, or at least most accurate. Of course Pitt is going to get tons of passing yardage in the second half, they were down by 3 scores! And even then NE didn't run well at all aside from Dillon's 25 yard TD run. He was a killer against Indy, but Indy didn't pass for shit in either half, so that enhances my point, not detracts.

Wanna try again?

Sure I will try again, show me the time of possesion in the 2004 colts playoff game and tell me that had nothing to do with holding the points down. I can show you across the board that teams that either turn the ball over a lot or do not move the ball well on offense are going to give up a lot of points, that is obvious. But in 2004 and it showed in games that year that when the pats offense had trouble moving the ball or turned it over the pass defense was exposed badly, I mean how could it not be with what was back there.

 

[midgar8784]

I would but you could just read up thread when I did that already. And Owwlek did at the same time I did, too.

I hope you're right and, as of now, don't see it, about the 09 D.

Now, that said, it's not that I think you're wrong. I just don't see it, yet.

Ok you have seymour, he is still on the team, you have law, who missed more of 2004, at least the second half and the playoffs, you have harrison, which I would hope could be replaced with merriweather/chung/sanders and you have bruschi, which I would say mayo replaced pretty well, and then you have vrabel which we are trying to replace with burgess, now we have AD, we also have with this team wilfork at a high level, we have better corners than 2004 at the very least with bodden and springs. We also have a better offense than 2004, which like I said, does wonders for a defense.

 

[Oswlek]

Sure I will try again, show me the time of possesion in the 2004 colts playoff game and tell me that had nothing to do with holding the points down. I can show you across the board that teams that either turn the ball over a lot or do not move the ball well on offense are going to give up a lot of points, that is obvious. But in 2004 and it showed in games that year that when the pats offense had trouble moving the ball or turned it over the pass defense was exposed badly, I mean how could it not be with what was back there.

So we have one half that NE did not win the TOP battle and Indy had one successful drive. And we had one half that Indy lost the TOP battle and had to pass, yet still had no successful drives. NE's D was fabulous either way. Dillon helped, but the D was dominant at all times.

I am not disagreeing with that the pass defense was the weakest link, but there were times when Samuel was down that NE was playing Troy, Earthwind and Gay as their top 3 CBs. Of course they are going to lose some battles. Brown was actually the DB that allowed the game winning TD against Feeley.

But when Samuel returned and Gay was the #2 the unit wasn't too shabby, largely because of astounding safety play.

Having a weak link is not the same as not being strong overall or not having playmakers.

 

[Oswlek]

Ok you have seymour, he is still on the team, you have law, who missed more of 2004, at least the second half and the playoffs, you have harrison, which I would hope could be replaced with merriweather/chung/sanders and you have bruschi, which I would say mayo replaced pretty well, and then you have vrabel which we are trying to replace with burgess, now we have AD, we also have with this team wilfork at a high level, we have better corners than 2004 at the very least with bodden and springs. We also have a better offense than 2004, which like I said, does wonders for a defense.

There isn't a person on the team that can replace Harrison's 2004 season. He was the best player in the league and should have been MVP of the season.

Mayo has the skills, but still has to prove it. Bruschi was a top 3-4 MLB/ILB that year.

Burgess doesn't even come close to replacing Vrabel.

You way underestimate how good those guys were that year if you feel that way. The only one even debatable is Mayo, and I think you will be proven correct on that one.

(This doesn't mean I disagree with your assessment of this defense and the number of playmakers, just your assessment of 2004)

 

[midgar8784]

So we have one half that NE did not win the TOP battle and Indy had one successful drive. And we had one half that Indy lost the TOP battle and had to pass, yet still had no successful drives. NE's D was fabulous either way. Dillon helped, but the D was dominant at all times.

I am not disagreeing with that the pass defense was the weakest link, but there were times when Samuel was down that NE was playing Troy, Earthwind and Gay as their top 3 CBs. Of course they are going to lose some battles. Brown was actually the DB that allowed the game winning TD against Feeley.

But when Samuel returned and Gay was the #2 the unit wasn't too shabby, largely because of astounding safety play.

Having a weak link is not the same as not being strong overall or not having playmakers.

having those injuries was what I was referring to. I heard the list of playmakers from 2004 as law (who was hurt down the stretch, in fact half the year and playoffs) harrison (we have young able bodies at safety that I see good things from, seymour (he is still here), vrabel and bruschi (man I hope they can be replaced with AD, mayo and burgess, I would think so) now we toss in wilfork, and yeah I would say we are on par with playmakers from teh 2004 team.

 

[DarrylStingley]

Ok you have seymour, he is still on the team, you have law, who missed more of 2004, at least the second half and the playoffs, you have harrison, which I would hope could be replaced with merriweather/chung/sanders and you have bruschi, which I would say mayo replaced pretty well, and then you have vrabel which we are trying to replace with burgess, now we have AD, we also have with this team wilfork at a high level, we have better corners than 2004 at the very least with bodden and springs. We also have a better offense than 2004, which like I said, does wonders for a defense.

Midgar, you do appreciate that the 2004 Seymour is not the same guy as the 2009 Seymour, right? If you don't, please know that I don't look at them as the same player. And whether he missed time or not, when he was on the team in 03 and 04, he was a beast.

As to Harrison being replaced by Merriweather, I suppose that's possible. Maybe. James Sanders? Please. To me, that guy is, at best, a solid player but not in the same category as Rodney. Chung? Who knows. He still has his NFL hyman fully intact.

Mayo very may well exceed Bruschi of 04, but my view is that Mayo hit the rookie wall pretty hard in November last year, and I'd like to see him go through a whole season before I make that comparision in his favor. I agree that it's likely to work out, though.

Vrabes might be equalled or bettered by Thomas or Burgess or both. We shall see. Vrabes was pretty good in those days.

 

[midgar8784]

There isn't a person on the team that can replace Harrison's 2004 season. He was the best player in the league and should have been MVP of the season.

Mayo has the skills, but still has to prove it. Bruschi was a top 3-4 MLB/ILB that year.

Burgess doesn't even come close to replacing Vrabel.

You way underestimate how good those guys were that year if you feel that way. The only one even debatable is Mayo, and I think you will be proven correct on that one.

(This doesn't mean I disagree with your assessment of this defense and the number of playmakers, just your assessment of 2004)

Burgess has teh potential to replace vrabel, this guy had a year with 17 sacks, so he is not some scrub. 2004 I would say we got as much pass rush production out of colvin. Again do I think AD and burgess can be effective like vrabel and colving were? Yeah I do. Vrabel and colvin had 10.5 sacks combined, if we cannot get that out of burgess and AD, then we are in trouble, and I think wilfork adds an element that was not there in 2004 with him as a rook sharing time with keith Traylor.

 

[midgar8784]

Midgar, you do appreciate that the 2004 Seymour is not the same guy as the 2009 Seymour, right? If you don't, please know that I don't look at them as the same player. And whether he missed time or not, when he was on the team in 03 and 04, he was a beast.

As to Harrison being replaced by Merriweather, I suppose that's possible. Maybe. James Sanders? Please. To me, that guy is, at best, a solid player but not in the same category as Rodney. Chung? Who knows. He still has his NFL hyman fully intact.

Mayo very may well exceed Bruschi of 04, but my view is that Mayo hit the rookie wall pretty hard in November last year, and I'd like to see him go through a whole season before I make that comparision in his favor. I agree that it's likely to work out, though.

Vrabes might be equalled or bettered by Thomas or Burgess or both. We shall see. Vrabes was pretty good in those days.

Im not replacing harrison with merriweather, I replacing him with a combo of merriweather and chung and sanders and tank williams, etc. I think we are deeper this year than I have seen in awhile on defense, we can actually rotate players across the board, in 2004, if bruschi was not in, nobody was, same for harrison, these guys played 60 plays, it had to take its toll. I just like the depth and added youth. It might be wishful thinking, but I have not felt good about this defense in awhile until thsi year.

 

[LVent*]

If AT is healthy all year he would be you Mega Playmaker...LB's always will get the glory over the dline in a 3-4.

As for Mayo I am curious to see how he performs; we once had a LB who was crazy good his rookie year; then was never really the same..

 

[Oswlek]

Burgess has teh potential to replace vrabel, this guy had a year with 17 sacks, so he is not some scrub. 2004 I would say we got as much pass rush production out of colvin. Again do I think AD and burgess can be effective like vrabel and colving were? Yeah I do. Vrabel and colvin had 10.5 sacks combined, if we cannot get that out of burgess and AD, then we are in trouble, and I think wilfork adds an element that was not there in 2004 with him as a rook sharing time with keith Traylor.

Vrable was a pass rush beast as well as the best run defender on the team. He could stay on the field at all times, unlike Burgess. Burgess may very well get the same number of sacks, but that doesn't come close to replacing the overall play. Vrabel's well roundedness (as well as Big Willie and Bruschi)was a big reason why NE could run so many packages out of their base set.

 

[midgar8784]

If AT is healthy all year he would be you Mega Playmaker...LB's always will get the glory over the dline in a 3-4.

As for Mayo I am curious to see how he performs; we once had a LB who was crazy good his rookie year; then was never really the same..

Well so far in preseason which I know means nothing he looks even better. He is a camp warrior and the pats are really high on the guy, I dont see him taking a step back, he looks like the real deal.

 

[midgar8784]

Vrable was a pass rush beast as well as the best run defender on the team. He could stay on the field at all times, unlike Burgess. Burgess may very well get the same number of sacks, but that doesn't come close to replacing the overall play. Vrabel's well roundedness (as well as Big Willie and Bruschi)was a big reason why NE could run so many packages out of their base set.

We have more players now though, which goes back to my depth thing. Burgess is not expected to be out there 40 plays which is why he will be so valuable, this is the exact time to have different packages where as before, vrabel and bruschi and harrison were not leaving the field.

 

[king of kings]

Mayo is going to be a beats this year. He had a year to learn BB defense Now BB can use him in a lot of creative ways this year.

 

[Oswlek]

We have more players now though, which goes back to my depth thing. Burgess is not expected to be out there 40 plays which is why he will be so valuable, this is the exact time to have different packages where as before, vrabel and bruschi and harrison were not leaving the field.

But this also leads to predictibility. Having guys that can do it all make offenses have to account for everything.

 

[midgar8784]

But this also leads to predictibility. Having guys that can do it all make offenses have to account for everything.

Having many bodies that can do different things can have fresh players that offenses have to account for. I cannot be the first to see that over the past 3 or 4 years the pats defense has been getting wore down as games have went along.

 

[Oswlek]

Having many bodies that can do different things can have fresh players that offenses have to account for. I cannot be the first to see that over the past 3 or 4 years the pats defense has been getting wore down as games have went along.

Of course, I was pointing out the other side of the coin.

And the defenses have been getting worn down because they main guys were older. Rotating is helpfull, but the biggest factor is getting some youth in the main guys like Mayo, Guyton, Meriweather.

 

[DarrylStingley]

Im not replacing harrison with merriweather, I replacing him with a combo of merriweather and chung and sanders and tank williams, etc. I think we are deeper this year than I have seen in awhile on defense, we can actually rotate players across the board, in 2004, if bruschi was not in, nobody was, same for harrison, these guys played 60 plays, it had to take its toll. I just like the depth and added youth. It might be wishful thinking, but I have not felt good about this defense in awhile until thsi year.

You could be right about the depth comment. I don't know. I hope you are.

But I was asking about individual playmakers.

And no one in the current safety group compares favorably to Rodney at this point.

Hey, the premise -- that having some bona fide play makers is important -- might be wrong. Depth and overall skill might be more important. But I was asking about playmakers and whether people thought this D would have some.

Again, some have said yes, and that we'd see it when the games start. Mayo, Brandon and others have been mentioned....

 

[midgar8784]

You could be right about the depth comment. I don't know. I hope you are.

But I was asking about individual playmakers.

And no one in the current safety group compares favorably to Rodney at this point.

Hey, the premise -- that having some bona fide play makers is important -- might be wrong. Depth and overall skill might be more important. But I was asking about playmakers and whether people thought this D would have some.

Again, some have said yes, and that we'd see it when the games start. Mayo, Brandon and others have been mentioned....

I really do think we have playmakers though and I think this is a breakout year for a couple of these guys. I think Mayo already is and from what I have seen so far this year he looks to have improved. I look at a couple of these guys that have been in this system for a couple years and I think they are going to take off. I think the team at least at this level is pretty happy with what they have seen.