No Mega Playmakers on D....True? Flaw?

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midgar8784 said:
I really do think we have playmakers though and I think this is a breakout year for a couple of these guys. I think Mayo already is and from what I have seen so far this year he looks to have improved. I look at a couple of these guys that have been in this system for a couple years and I think they are going to take off. I think the team at least at this level is pretty happy with what they have seen.
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From your lips. :clap:
 
DarrylStingley said:
You could be right about the depth comment. I don't know. I hope you are.

But I was asking about individual playmakers.

And no one in the current safety group compares favorably to Rodney at this point.

Hey, the premise -- that having some bona fide play makers is important -- might be wrong. Depth and overall skill might be more important. But I was asking about playmakers and whether people thought this D would have some.

Again, some have said yes, and that we'd see it when the games start. Mayo, Brandon and others have been mentioned....
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The factor that you discount that I think is incredibly important is coaching. Last year NE had to scheme simply as to work in newcomers at both ILB spots, OLB and some putrid play at CB.

Since 2006 they've been weaker in the middle of the field with Bruschi and Harrison not nearly as good as they had been, and the other ILB spot in flux.

Now, they finally have a strong overall roster with depth, youth and experience at all positions. If you've been watching the PS games you should notice lots of new formations, but you should also see rushng slants by the DL to open up blitz lanes for the safety/ILB. You can see the team crowding the line and faking the blitz like they used to to confuse the OL. They haven't been doing this stuff the past couple years.

Players can look a whole lot less impactful if they are covering up for other peoples weaknesses all the time.
 
Mayo and Guyton are going to be very good as the new starting ILB for the Pats.
 
Oswlek said:
The factor that you discount that I think is incredibly important is coaching. Last year NE had to scheme simply as to work in newcomers at both ILB spots, OLB and some putrid play at CB.

Since 2006 they've been weaker in the middle of the field with Bruschi and Harrison not nearly as good as they had been, and the other ILB spot in flux.

Now, they finally have a strong overall roster with depth, youth and experience at all positions. If you've been watching the PS games you should notice lots of new formations, but you should also see rushng slants by the DL to open up blitz lanes for the safety/ILB. You can see the team crowding the line and faking the blitz like they used to to confuse the OL. They haven't been doing this stuff the past couple years.

Players can look a whole lot less impactful if they are covering up for other peoples weaknesses all the time.
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So you're saying that they have better overall players, the coaches can utitlize more exotic schemes and that will lead certain players to stand out as playmakers?

If so, me likey.

I have watched the pre-season games and have seen the D look very good for the most part. Not many players have really stood out (Tully has, actually). But with guys shuttling in and out, that's to be expected.
 
Oswlek said:
The factor that you discount that I think is incredibly important is coaching. Last year NE had to scheme simply as to work in newcomers at both ILB spots, OLB and some putrid play at CB.

Since 2006 they've been weaker in the middle of the field with Bruschi and Harrison not nearly as good as they had been, and the other ILB spot in flux.

Now, they finally have a strong overall roster with depth, youth and experience at all positions. If you've been watching the PS games you should notice lots of new formations, but you should also see rushng slants by the DL to open up blitz lanes for the safety/ILB. You can see the team crowding the line and faking the blitz like they used to to confuse the OL. They haven't been doing this stuff the past couple years.

Players can look a whole lot less impactful if they are covering up for other peoples weaknesses all the time.
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Last year it seemed like everyone was dropping back and they were trying to get pressure with 3 players, in a 3-4 system, thats hard to do, but the linebackers I believe were trying to play back and in zone. I am not sure that was because they had to, or they didnt trust the secondary to cover.
 
midgar8784 said:
Well so far in preseason which I know means nothing he looks even better. He is a camp warrior and the pats are really high on the guy, I dont see him taking a step back, he looks like the real deal.
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Oh no doubt; thats just why I am waiting on it ;). If he has a season similar to last thats a successful one towards me...This is pretty much the same way in which I am viewing Matt C.
 
DarrylStingley said:
So you're saying that they have better overall players, the coaches can utitlize more exotic schemes and that will lead certain players to stand out as playmakers?

If so, me likey.

I have watched the pre-season games and have seen the D look very good for the most part. Not many players have really stood out (Tully has, actually). But with guys shuttling in and out, that's to be expected.
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Remember Samuel's TD return int against Jax in 2005?

That was set up by NE baiting Jax with similar looks out of a formation, and similar coverages. Samuel started the play as if he were going to do the same thing again, and then dropped off his WR and settling in the passing lane of the expected toss, letting the safety become responsible for coverage.

It worked to perfection and Samuel as just sitting there waiting for the ball to arrive with nary a defender in front of him. That was why BB was so ecstatic afterward and gave EM a huge hug.

Playmaking? Coaching? Is it important which one?
 
Oswlek said:
Remember Samuel's TD return int against Jax in 2005?

That was set up by NE baiting Jax with similar looks out of a formation, and similar coverages. Samuel started the play as if he were going to do the same thing again, and then dropped off his WR and settling in the passing lane of the expected toss, letting the safety become responsible for coverage.

It worked to perfection and Samuel as just sitting there waiting for the ball to arrive with nary a defender in front of him. That was why BB was so ecstatic afterward and gave EM a huge hug.

Playmaking? Coaching? Is it important which one?
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I dunno. Sounds like a chicken-egg question that I'm not really qualified to answer. I just want to see the Pats with a two or three beats out there. I want to see guys who I know will make some big plays. Guys who are like what Law, Rodney, Willie, Tedy and Vrabel were to the back-to-back champs. If better overall talent and superior coaching lead to that, so much the better.
 
LVent* said:
Oh no doubt; thats just why I am waiting on it ;). If he has a season similar to last thats a successful one towards me...This is pretty much the same way in which I am viewing Matt C.
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Well mayo had a bit more upside than....ok well nevermind.
 
DarrylStingley said:
As I consider whether this Pats team is really going to do what I think it's going to do -- win the damn Super Bowl -- I wonder whether a team without a bona fide mega star on D is flawed.

1. Am I right? Are there no mega stars?

The only players who could fit that bill in my view are Mayo and Seymour. Mayo fell off a bit after the Jets game last year and needs a full year of dominance to be considered a true mega performer. Seymour has been on the downswing the last few years.

2. Does it matter? Maybe not. The 01 team had Ty Law. The 03 team had Seymour and Law and Harrison. The 04 team had the same guys. McGinest was a pretty big peformer.

3. It seems to me that the 09 Pats have a lot of strong players but no mega starts.

Discuss this Patriots football related issue, please.
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Good questions. As the season progresses, we might find out a player or two might surprise us, by becoming a mega star on D. Of course, by saying 'mega star', you must be talking about he greatest of the great. The very rare defender that can, if not take over the game, can make the opposing coaches totally change their gameplans. Guys like a Butkus, Ray Lewis (in his prime, of course), Ronnie Lott. Guys like that are the mega defensive stars. Jason Taylor was in that mold. I'll say Rodney Harrison was in that mold. How about Deacon Jones? Andre Tippet was one of those guys, Lawrence Taylor, and we could name a few more.

Now as far as I can tell, the current Patriots do not have any mega defensive stars. The closest ones I can think of now are Seymour, Wilfork, and Mayo. In fact, Mayo may turn into a mega-star. Maybe he already is one.

Belichick and Romeo Crennel's (boy, do the Patriots miss him) schemes made some of the players look like mega-stars. Ty Law, Rodney Harrison, Willie McGinnest, Tey Bruschi, Assante Samuel, Mike Vrabel...those guys sure seemed like great players in their prime. How much was scheme, and how much was each player? I don't know.

I think the Patriots could win the championship without any genuine mega-stars on defense. Although, again, some of the players might really out-do themselves under Belichick.

I do think the '09 has some strong players. I'm not sure about the secondary in general, but Sanders is okay, and Merriweather seems to be improving yearly. He was pretty good last year!

Mayo is a fine player, and barring injury, will be for about 10 years, eh? Adalius Thomas shows flashes of brilliance, like how he took Favre, and spun him around like a toy last season. And he had a nice int/td in '07, against the Chargers. That was an all-star play. He reminds me of McGinnest....the guy keeps getting injured, and it's frustrating, considering how good he seems to be. Like McGinnest....but finally Willie McGinnest somehow got over that injury bug (luck?), or at least was pretty close to 100% come playoff time. And that my friends, was a blessing. Come on Adalius! You can do it.

And I'd like to add, those genuinely real fine defensive tackles the Patriots have, well they don't make alot of flashy plays. I mean, the kinds of plays you notice automatically when you're watching the games on TV, or even at the game. Flashy like a Ty Law or Assante Samuel interception and long runback. Everybody notices that. Maybe Seymour is (or at least was) a mega defensive star, and maybe Wilfork is a mega defensive star now.

I think it's probably true the Patriots don't currently have any mega-defensive stars. But I don't think it matters. I think the players are good enough to help bring the Lombardi home.

You know it's funny, I just read the book Red and Me, by Bill Russell, and he said something very interesting, which has a link to your question, I think. He said Red Auerbach never lamented that he didn't have certain great NBA players on his team. He just said, and excuse language, but this is how Red would say it: **** it. These are my players, so these are the players I'm going to work with, and we'll just figure out how to kick the ass of the other teams! So what if we (the old Celts) don't have Jerry West, or Oscar Robertson, or Wilt Chamberlain, etc... My job is to take the players on my roster, and mold them into champions.

So, and Belichick is certainly up to this task.....Belichick has to take the players he has, whether or not he has any 'mega-stars', and mold them into champions.

Belichick just might take this defense and mold it into championship form. And then we will wax poetic about all the great plays that Lee Bowden and Merriweather and Tully Banta-Cain and Ron Brace and AD and Mayo and all the rest make this year.

Remember how in 2001, guys we never heard of made plays...that we may never forget? The guy who Troy Brown lateraled the ball to after the Pats blocked the Steelers field goal in the playoffs...what was that guys name? Antwan...not Smith of course....Antwan Harris. Or in 2003, Matt Chatham of all people picked up a Giants fumble and returned it for a td. Let's see who makes this year's big plays. There is a good chance, knowing the Patriots and Belichick, pretty much all of the defenders will make some big plays.
 
Michigan Dave said:
We should run away with the AFCE because :patriots! is still on the side of our helmet.

The video game numbers will allow us to run away with the AFC, win the Super Bowl, and keep the "0" in the L column.
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Brady doesn't look hampered at all: 14/23 2 Tds and a 92.1 QBr. He doesn't look rusty, and even Brady at less than full strength is better than just about anyone else.
Welker will be the same old reliable catch-everything guy. Moss will be the same old impossible-for-1 CB to cover- WR.
Yep.there's nothing but smooth sailing for you guys this year.

AFC East champs, easy. Done deal. Everyone thinks so.

How can they not?

The Coach of Gangrene is adept at talking trash like "I didn't come here to kiss Bill Belichick's rings", but how adept is he at replacing invisible players? Pace, his best LB, is going to be gone for the first MONTH on suspension, and now their starting DT is also suspended at least one game due to his 50 grams of weed. Not to mention, how does he intend to compete with the mighty Patriots with a WR corps of Jerricho Cotchery and Chasi Stuckey? Moss is better than both put together, and Welker is better than either one. Sanchez has not faced the bewildering defensive scheme that the Dark Lord Belichick will design, the same ones that have baffled Peyton Manning and every other QB.

Cryptkeeper Dick Jauron may have saved his job for a time with the hiring of assclown Owens, but his best QB is made of paper mache and his RB will also start off suspended with a gun charge. Will T.O. behave? Sure, right up until Sir Trent the Brittle trips over a yardage marker and goes on IR. Then we'll see the T.O. everyone has come to know, as career 66.9 QBr Ryan Fitzpatrick is the one chucking it downfield, and over his head. Then we'll see what the vapid Bills have become known for recently, disintegrating like a pinata at a party with fifty kids.

How can they not?



Hmmmm.

I did leave out one little detail...ah, it's nothing for you Pats fans to worry about. Nada. No problem-o. No one else is wasting even a moment in the media on the possibility, and of course, they're the experts...

It is absurd to even mention, I know, and I'm certainly not an "expert".

I do, however, know someone who is.

He currently resides in the VP box in Landshark Stadium. He does know what to do.

He knows that pressure on Brady is the only way to stymie the awesome juggernaut. He knows that the passrush is crucial to success against any Brady-led team.
SURVEY SAYS:
Joey Porter, a revitalized and energetic Jason Taylor and Cameron Wake. Who do you double-team?

He knows that the only way to have success against the aging but brilliant Pat's D is by being physical and running the ball. No one is going to win shootouts with Brady against the defense that NE has.
SURVEY SAYS:
Ronnie Brown (fully recovered and in camp posted a sub 4.4 forty, the first time he's done that since the combine)
Ricky Williams (imho the best backup RB in the league)
So far ALL four of Miami's RBs (Brown, Williams, Cobbs and Hilliard) are averaging better than 4 yds per touch. ALL of them.
Gone is our soft center Satele, gone because he couldn't handle Vince Wilfork. In comes Jake Grove from Oakland...why? Because they played the AFCE last year and Grove did very well against it.

Now, no one else gives a hoot...certainly not the 'experts'. That's why the Pats are a 4:1 favorite over the 15:2 Steelers to win the Superbowl. Miami is 30:1.
The over-under for wins on NE is 11.5.
The over-under for Miami is 7. SEVEN.
The 'experts' feel the Phins will have a losing record. You can believe it, 'cause they're the 'experts', can't you?

Buffalo's over-under is 8.5 for goodness' sake. They'll be more of an obstacle than the Phish from Phlorida.

The 'experts' say so.

Meanwhile, us little bottom-feeders down here are listening to our expert.

Good luck, and we will be seeing you...count on it.
 
We do have "stars" on defense, the media just has not found them yet. They are still star struck by the offense.

But at the end of the year, it always comes down to the defense.*




*Unless you play a weak sister, like the Steelers and the Colts did in the SB's, then you can still be one dimensional
 
While I appreciate pawfectgent's enthusiasm and respect Parcells' club-building abilities, the Dolphins will need to pull another Wildcat out of their asses, and hope Brady is knocked out in Week One again for the Fins to have any shot at the division.

Kudos to Sparano and company (on getting knocked out of the first round of the playoffs FWIW)....but lightening doesn't often strike twice in the same location.
 
Last time the pats did not make the playoffs . They went on to win the SB going 14-2.
 
Wandering Athol said:
Bonafide Playmakers on Pats:
Meriweather (household name this year)
Mayo (Year 2 breakthrough)
Thomas (was well on his way before injury in '08)
Seymour (playing for a new contract)

Guys I'm hoping step up:
Burgess (return to greatness?)
TBC (used in role emphasizing his strengths)
Bodden (has done it before in this league)

IMO, anything you get from the rookies is gravy.
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This for starters.

Ty Warren & Jarvis Green will be disruptive. Pryor is flashing some serious potential, Brace will probably be more of a steady guy. Butler is impressing me much earlier than his rookie CB predecessors. Guyton is a step up candidate, as is Woods.

To recap:

Mega stars? Who cares, it's consistent playmakers the Pats need.

Returning playmakers:
Seymour: A stud when healthy. Concerns: Injury.
Warren: In his own way as dominant as Sey, stronger against the run and a good rusher too. Concerns: Injury.
Wilfork: #2 tackler with 66 tackles from the nose? Oh yeah baby. Concerns: Injury.
Green: 7.5 & 6.5 sack seasons, how many big plays has he made with his pressure? :thumb: Concerns: Injury.
Thomas: :coffee: Concerns: Injury.
Meriweather: 4 int and 2 sacks last season once he started getting warmed up, with the games NE plans to play up front he's going to be a lot of fun. Concerns: Injury.
Bruschi: He's got it done before - if he just makes it happen in situational work he's golden. Concerns: Age/Injury.

Arriving playmakers:
Bodden: He had a 6 int season the last time he was in this defense. Concerns: How fast his he fitting in with his battery mates in the secondary?
Springs: He's got it done before - if he just makes it happen in situational work he's golden. Concerns: Age/Injury.
Banta-Cain: 5.5 sacks as a part-time player the last time he was in this defense. Concerns: Can he hold up against the run?
Burgess: Sackmaster. Concerns: He hasn't looked explosive in the first two games and he's been dragged down by Oakland/injuries.

Step-up guys:
Mayo: Poised to bust loose now that he's not thinking
Guyton: He was making plays last season in spot work, he's getting his hands on the ball in preseason, don't sleep on this kid.
Wilhite: He started camp penciled in as a starter and is holding it down so far.
Woods: He's the penciled in starter, it comes with the territory.

Interesting rookies:
Pryor: Conditioning may be an issue early on, but he's gotten it done against 1st team OL this preseason.
Brace: Big plays, no, but he's a rock inside who looks like he'll free up others to make plays.
Butler: It looks like he's the leading Nickelback candidate, and if he keeps developing as fast as it looks, he could be fighting for starting time.

Surprise options:
Wheatley: He was working his way into starter when he got hurt, he could do it again and he was considered a ballhawk in college.
McGowan: He was hampered by injuries in Chicago, his hit and FF on Coats was typical of Chicago's defense.
Chung: I think he's got a year before he's going to be able to unleash his inner playmaker, but if he's forced into the line-up early, don't be surprised if he pulls a play or two out of his sleeve.
Sanders: Yeh, yeh, you wankers. NE appears to be playing around with pressure packages that include safety blitzes, Sanders was a pretty good blitzer in college, and he's brought the pressure for BB on more than one occasion.
 
Don't need superstars on the D. But we need guys to step up and make big plays on a regular basis. I don't know if Bruschi was ever a superstar, but he seemed to be involved in a lot of forced turnovers at key times during the championship seasons.

"Video Game" numbers on offense will win a lot of regular season games. But that's not what wins in the playoffs. It never has been. Hell, the Pats won Super Bowls because they were able to stifle some of the most prolific offenses in history (Rams, Colts) during the post season.

Those years that Peyton Manning was putting up monster numbers, all the "experts" were always pegging them as Super Bowl favorites. Those teams were built to dominate the regular season, not the playoffs. Until they finally built a strong D, they always got smacked down in the post season.

There's certainly reason to be optimistic that the Pats' D will be much improved this year. But nothing has been proven yet. If this unit keeps getting better as the season goes on, I like our chances a lot. But if we continue to see the sloppy tackling, the dropped interceptions, the wearing down in the 4th quarter, the weak pass rush, the soft coverages that we've seen in recent seasons, the only championship they'll be winning will be in video games.
 
I am throwing salt over my shoulder and crossing my fingers while I post this but what about Merriweather makes you concerned about injury?

Oh wait..you put that for all the D starters. Jeez. Is it a karmic thang ?:)
 
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