The Dynasty and its Evolution

[mooseontheloose]

Interesting thought here.

If you'll humor me, we can break the Pats dynasty into 3 components.

Early Championship Days
2001-2006

Here you have 3 Super Bowls and an AFCCCG appearance. Back then this team clearly depended on its defense and we were only just beginning to see Brady's true offensive potential, especially in 2006 when he carried a bunch of WR scrubs on his back to narrowly miss out on a SB appearance (and surefire win over the LOLBears). These teams had grit, energy, passion and resolve. They had a brand and style.

The Middle Years
2007-2013

These years had some very talented teams (on paper) that still got to the big game, but also some horrific losses (NYJ, BAL). There were a number of games where play calling, execution, coaching, etc. were all just awful. Plenty of fans wondered if BB/TB would ever win another title. Despite having talent on paper, these teams didn't seem as tough (physically or mentally) as we were used to. They didn't seem to elevate themselves in the biggest moments and seemed vulnerable to being caught off guard by random average teams. In terms of wins and stats (both team and Brady) this stretch was still incredibly impressive, but it 'felt' different and the results weren't there.

Late Championship Days
2014-2018

In 2014 the Pats finally did something they couldn't do for years by making a defensive stop when the chips were down. That Butler INT launched the second blitz of championships but was also a clear departure from trends we'd seen against the Giants (where the D played well but broke with the games on the line). Brady led two massive comebacks against both BAL and SEA, but it's worth noting that the D made a two big time plays (High and Butler) to win that SB. Against ATL everyone started slow and Brady was a fucking monster in the second half. Like the SEA game though, this was an awesome demonstration of conviction and resolve. No quit. And even though the D gave up 21 points by the middle of the 3rd, it pitched a shutout when it absolutely had to, and Tom did the rest. Against PHI the defense struggled mightily but there was no quit. That team wanted it and fought until the end, but Philly just outlasted them and made one extra big play (sack fumble). Last night the D put on a damn show against one of the league's best offenses. The energy and blue-collar approach was amazing. Dudes were flying all over the field on D all night. Brady needed just one championship level drive on this night, and when it came time for the D to make a stand it did what it did against SEA and ATL - balled out. Gilmore INT destroyed LA's last real chance to score.

In the last 3 SB wins against SEA, ATL, LA, the Pats have outscored their opponents 43-0 in the 4th quarter. That is clutch playoff football.

So, it's interesting to ask: what changed? TB/BB have had so much success generally, but they've won their championships in clumps. The teams that beat SEA, ATL and LA 'felt' different than those who couldn't get it done against the Giants, Ravens, etc. These recent teams really have an identity.

Different players and different coaches, of course, but what do you guys think? Other than talent, how would you characterize those middle years?

 

[Steve1]

Well done. From 2007-2013, I think Belichick and Co. started to sign some 'me' people, in an attempt to get back to those 'glory days' of 2001-2006. Players like Adrian Thomas, Albert Hainsworth, Ocho Cinco, Randy Moss, and even Wes Welker. Anyway, I'm still reveling in last night's rockfight.

 

[Hawg73]

Brady needed just one championship level drive on this night, and when it came time for the D to make a stand it did what it did against SEA and ATL - balled out. Gilmore INT destroyed LA's last real chance to score.

Early in our TD drive it appeared to me, that for the first time all night, Brady looked visibly more relaxed. He had time to set his feet and threw the ball with his body relaxed and was on target. I think part of that was that Donald and Suh looked spent because while we didn't score much, we held the ball for a good portion of the game and those guys have to expend a ton of energy. I haven't watched the OL carefully yet, but I noticed that from about 9 minutes left in the game they were handled quite well by our guys. They were toast. I saw Thuney stone Donald's rush solo on one play (which would have been really tough when he was fresh) and then hammered Suh backwards on the Sony TD and it wasn't just him. They were all getting after it and showed great conditioning in the process.

The improvement of our OL after Pittsburgh was dramatic. The pre-snap problems and holding all but disappeared.

I think Brady was pretty apprehensive through most of that game and was very aware of their DL and for good reason. They are adept at breaking his pocket from inside and he couldn't get the time to let plays fully develop.

My take, anyhow.

So, it's interesting to ask: what changed? TB/BB have had so much success generally, but they've won their championships in clumps. The teams that beat SEA, ATL and LA 'felt' different than those who couldn't get it done against the Giants, Ravens, etc. These recent teams really have an identity.

Different players and different coaches, of course, but what do you guys think?

I think Bill is always working to refine his system. He's never satisfied with what worked last year and one thing that stood out to me was, and at least some of the credit has to go to Brian Flores, there seemed to be a much better coordination and communication at all levels of the D. You didn't see a lot of panicky hand-waving from 2 or 3 guys this year. The backfield, in particular, seemed to cover a hell of a lot better than we've seen recently.

I think the personnel is better and deeper, but the cohesiveness seemed like the biggest difference from where I sat in Section 237.

My overall feeling was this may have been the smartest of all of our Championship teams and they overcame some real stinkers while we were sorting things out.

 

[Patriots71]

Interesting thought here.

If you'll humor me, we can break the Pats dynasty into 3 components.

Early Championship Days
2001-2006

Here you have 3 Super Bowls and an AFCCCG appearance. Back then this team clearly depended on its defense and we were only just beginning to see Brady's true offensive potential, especially in 2006 when he carried a bunch of WR scrubs on his back to narrowly miss out on a SB appearance (and surefire win over the LOLBears). These teams had grit, energy, passion and resolve. They had a brand and style.

The Middle Years
2007-2013

These years had some very talented teams (on paper) that still got to the big game, but also some horrific losses (NYJ, BAL). There were a number of games where play calling, execution, coaching, etc. were all just awful. Plenty of fans wondered if BB/TB would ever win another title. Despite having talent on paper, these teams didn't seem as tough (physically or mentally) as we were used to. They didn't seem to elevate themselves in the biggest moments and seemed vulnerable to being caught off guard by random average teams. In terms of wins and stats (both team and Brady) this stretch was still incredibly impressive, but it 'felt' different and the results weren't there.

Late Championship Days
2014-2018

In 2014 the Pats finally did something they couldn't do for years by making a defensive stop when the chips were down. That Butler INT launched the second blitz of championships but was also a clear departure from trends we'd seen against the Giants (where the D played well but broke with the games on the line). Brady led two massive comebacks against both BAL and SEA, but it's worth noting that the D made a two big time plays (High and Butler) to win that SB. Against ATL everyone started slow and Brady was a fucking monster in the second half. Like the SEA game though, this was an awesome demonstration of conviction and resolve. No quit. And even though the D gave up 21 points by the middle of the 3rd, it pitched a shutout when it absolutely had to, and Tom did the rest. Against PHI the defense struggled mightily but there was no quit. That team wanted it and fought until the end, but Philly just outlasted them and made one extra big play (sack fumble). Last night the D put on a damn show against one of the league's best offenses. The energy and blue-collar approach was amazing. Dudes were flying all over the field on D all night. Brady needed just one championship level drive on this night, and when it came time for the D to make a stand it did what it did against SEA and ATL - balled out. Gilmore INT destroyed LA's last real chance to score.

In the last 3 SB wins against SEA, ATL, LA, the Pats have outscored their opponents 43-0 in the 4th quarter. That is clutch playoff football.

So, it's interesting to ask: what changed? TB/BB have had so much success generally, but they've won their championships in clumps. The teams that beat SEA, ATL and LA 'felt' different than those who couldn't get it done against the Giants, Ravens, etc. These recent teams really have an identity.

Different players and different coaches, of course, but what do you guys think? Other than talent, how would you characterize those middle years?

I literally think BB and Brady have to adjust every year, this team changes so much. The defense last year and this year in the superbowl was night and day, and still had a lot of the same players. Brady could put up a lot of points with stars on the field like in 2007, but this team goes through receivers like they are going out of style. People will never mention it, but Edelman missed the first 4 games, Gronk was hurt most of the year. Hogan has lost a step, we finally get a stud and he has to leave for mental issues. They had to adjust almost weekly, but those two can.

 

[grog]

It might be as simple as locker room leadership. Edelman, for example, has no quit in him. The McCourty's, KVN, the list goes on.

The middle years seemed to be lacking the character this team and the early years had. They genuinely care for each other. I think the benching of Butler last year backfired on the coaches because of that. Just a thought.

 

[mooseontheloose]

It might be as simple as locker room leadership. Edelman, for example, has no quit in him. The McCourty's, KVN, the list goes on.

The middle years seemed to be lacking the character this team and the early years had. They genuinely care for each other. I think the benching of Butler last year backfired on the coaches because of that. Just a thought.

I'd agree, and that's kind of what I was hinting at. There were some pretty solid rosters at times during the middle years but they just didn't seem to have the same character and resolve we're seeing now. Whether that's individual players/personalities in the room or something BB changed or something else, I'd say the 'feel' of recent teams is more what we'd associate with Patriots football (and not just because they've won SBs).

Was just a curiosity in my mind - a thought experiment.

 

[Coolade]

Greatness in teams

The identity you refer to is a more balanced team with the defense having some swag. Starting in 2005 when they lost Rodney to cheap shot knee injury at Pittsburgh, the defense had lots of key injuries and aging stars that held them back.
Now recently, guys like hightower. Mccourty chung.and the cornerbacks as a group revis Butler gilmore have been huge.

Like the early days..the identity of the defense really balances this team with Brady back to game manager and closer, 4th quarter stud, subject to early mistakes. It's crazy to think of the early ugly picks by Brady in the victories over Seattle, Atlanta and now LA rams. Like.. ok gotta rally now. Show what you got.

 

[bmooney54]

I think we have two separate dynasties. We won 3 in 4 years and then 3 in 5 years. I don't think we were a continuous dynasty, due to lack of championship wins. We were excellent, but no one considers the 90's Bills a dynasty. The time in between could be argued as overlapping sub-dynasties. The Steelers won 2 in 4 years and the Giants won 2 in 5 years.

 

[mooseontheloose]

I think we have two separate dynasties. We won 3 in 4 years and then 3 in 5 years. I don't think we were a continuous dynasty, due to lack of championship wins. We were excellent, but no one considers the 90's Bills a dynasty. The time in between could be argued as overlapping sub-dynasties. The Steelers won 2 in 4 years and the Giants won 2 in 5 years.

I think that's fair. But I think it's noteworthy that we didn't just suck for 8 years or whatever - Pats played in 2 SBs and a 4? AFCCCGs during those middle years. But they couldn't close the deal when it counted. Completely different than what we're seeing right now.