The Newest Definitive "Are We Alone?" Collective Debate

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We are utterly and completely alone. This is all bullsh*t.
 
patsRmyboys said:
It's not statistically possible for us to be alone in the universe unless you think the universe is contained within our own solar system...
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I think life forms light years away and eons past or future don’t count. Blinking in and out of parallel universes and wormholes sounds nice on star trek but has no basis in reality.
Literally anything you could name is more likely than advanced life existing in our time and within any striking distance. Likelihood is infinitesimal.
 
Based on what? Because YOU think so? Well, I have a different view... for us to be the ONLY thing here is a tremendous waste of space. There are many planets that have been identified that are capable of supporting life. Can we get there with current technology? Not likely, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
 
Based on the incalculable and immeasurable and immensity of time and space. The end.

I’m not saying it couldn’t but its likelihood is next to nonexistent. I’ll take the odds.
 
I believe I have stated it before, but I will state it again.....my view;

1. I think the universe is teaming with life, and we may even have life on multiple bodies in our own solar system, even. I believe that given the right elements and time, life is not some random chance, an accident of fate, I think it is inevitable where you have reasonable conditions....water, and a source of nutrients and energy.

2. Probably 90% of this life is single celled, or very small multi celled. Bacterial or plankton type. Pond scum, slime, that sort of thing.

3. 9% of this life is multi cellular.....crabs, mushrooms, plants, rodents....stuff like that.

4. .9% of life is what we would call intelligent. By intelligence, I don't mean dolphins and octopii....I mean able to use tools, create things like dyes and paints, clothing, engage in economics to some level, some kind of societal organization like a government, make fire, make containers to hold things like water and berries. Think Neanderthal intelligent.

5. 0.1% of life is more or less like us.....technological which I define as controlling energy to do work....in the form of electrical, at minimum, and at a level where they can perceive and study extraplanetary objects....they can look at other planets in their solar system and see what they are made of, whether they have an atmosphere or not, that kind of thing.

6. None of these life forms are present on Earth today, nor are their technologies present here on Earth. It is possible that at some point in the past, they or their technology have been here, perhaps even before humankind evolved. 5 Billion years is a long time. They may have shown up, saw dinosaurs, and flew off after collecting whatever data they were interested in.

7. The reason I subscribe to #6 is because I understand the vastness of the universe, even the distance between stars, I understand the limitations of the speed of light, I understand that any rule breaking of the speed of light is vastly more fiction than it is science, and even if it were possible, the amount of energy required to transcend the speed of light, or create wormholes in space, is beyond comprehension, and anyone who doesn't think so just doesn't have the understanding of physics to grasp the impossibility of it. I do keep an open mind about having been visited at some point in the past, because 5 Billion years is enough time to have someone stop in, and time dilation makes it technologically possible to send probes or even to travel in interstellar space, but by the time they make the round trip, they could find their entire civilization gone.....so it's just not as simple or common as some may wish.

On the topic of "warp speeds and wormholes"....well, let me put a few things into perspective about the kind of energy required for that.....

You're talking about enough energy to bend space into a pretzel, for all practical purposes...a bubble big enough to wrap yourself in it. How much energy would this require?

A "warp bubble" is essentially a gravitational wave that is so extreme it curves in on itself. It is a wave in spacetime that is distorted into a bubble.

Well, LIGO detects black hole mergers...roughly black holes about 20-30 solar masses whipping around one another at nearly the speed of light just a stone's throw away from one another. This massive distortion and massive energy creates gravitational waves that we can now detect with LIGO and other observatories.

How big is that wave that LIGO detects?

That wave is 1/10th the diameter of a single proton. Two massive black holes totalling 50 times the mass of the sun orbiting one another at near light speed, can bend space to the tune of 1/10 of a proton. That's what it takes.

Now, if you want to bend space around a spaceship. Let's say it take the energy of 5000 suns to bend space to that of a single proton. How many protons in diameter is your spaceship?

It is theoretically possible, of course. You would just have to take all the mass of an entire galaxy and convert it all to energy, thus annihilating the entire galaxy, just to get enough energy to create one warp bubble for one ship for one trip.....one way.

Never happened, and it never will.....at least....until we see entire galaxies vanishing from existence one at a time frmo the sky...then we can begin to think about whether warp speed is actually happening.
 
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Baron Samedi said:
I believe I have stated it before, but I will state it again.....my view;

1. I think the universe is teaming with life, and we may even have life on multiple bodies in our own solar system, even. I believe that given the right elements and time, life is not some random chance, an accident of fate, I think it is inevitable where you have reasonable conditions....water, and a source of nutrients and energy.

2. Probably 90% of this life is single celled, or very small multi celled. Bacterial or plankton type. Pond scum, slime, that sort of thing.

3. 9% of this life is multi cellular.....crabs, mushrooms, plants, rodents....stuff like that.

4. .9% of life is what we would call intelligent. By intelligence, I don't mean dolphins and octopii....I mean able to use tools, create things like dyes and paints, clothing, engage in economics to some level, some kind of societal organization like a government, make fire, make containers to hold things like water and berries. Think Neanderthal intelligent.

5. 0.1% of life is more or less like us.....technological which I define as controlling energy to do work....ine the form of electrical, at minimum, and at a level where they can perceive and study extraplanitary objects....they can look at other planets in their solar system and see what they are made of, whether they have an atmosphere or not, that kind of thing.

6. None of these life forms are present on Earth today, nor are their technologies present here on Earth. It is possible that at some point in the past, they or their technology have been here, perhaps even before humankind evolved. 5 Billion years is a long time. They may have shown up, saw dinosaurs, and flew off after collecting whatever data they were interested in.

7. The reason I subscribe to #6 is because I understand the vastness of the universe, even the distance between stars, I understand the limitations of the speed of light, I understand that any rule breaking of the speed of light is vastly more fiction than it is science, and even if it were possible, the amount of energy required to transcend the speed of light, or create wormholes in space, is beyond comprehension, and anyone who doesn't think so just doesn't have the understanding of physics to grasp the impossibility of it. I do keep an open mind about having been visited at some point in the past, because 5 Billion years is enough time to have someone stop in, and time dilation makes it technologically possible to send probes or even to travel in interstellar space, but by the time they make the round trip, they could find their entire civilization gone.....so it's just not as simple or common as some may wish.

On the topic of "warp speeds and wormholes"....well, let me put a few things into perspective about the kind of energy required for that.....

You're talking about enough energy to bend space into a pretzel, for all practical purposes...a bubble big enough to wrap yourself in it. How much energy would this require?

A "warp bubble" is essentially a gravitational wave that is so extreme it curves in on itself. It is a wave in spacetime that is distorted into a bubble.

Well, LIGO detects black hole mergers...roughly black holes about 20-30 solar masses whipping around one another at nearly the speed of light just a stone's throw away from one another. This massive distortion and massive energy creates gravitational waves that we can now detect with LIGO and other observatories.

How big is that wave that LIGO detects?

That wave is 1/10th the diameter of a single proton. Two massive black holes totalling 50 times the mass of the sun orbiting one another at near light speed, can bend space to the tune of 1/10 of a proton. That's what it takes.

Now, if you want to bend space around a spaceship. Let's say it take the energy of 5000 suns to bend space to that of a single proton. How many protons in diameter is your spaceship?

It is theoretically possible, of course. You would just have to take all the mass of an entire galaxy and convert it all to energy, thus annihilating the entire galaxy, just to get enough energy to create one warp bubble for one ship for one trip.....one way.

Never happened, and it never will.....at least....until we see entire galaxies vanishing from existence one at a time frmo the sky...then we can begin to think about whether warp speed is actually happening.
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Fugging case closed.
This is exactly my point but made much better than I ever could. Is the sh*t theoretically possible? Maybe but the likelihood is next to nil. Impossible to overstate the odds against it.

One point touched on here is how long would a civilization have to exist to achieve this level of tech? How long does a typical planet or solar system avoid catastrophe? A species avoid extinction?

I’m not saying a highly intelligent form of life couldn’t exist. Past, present future it’s possible probable likely. The odds our time and space and theirs overlap is essentially none.
 
The True Believers would have you believe the government is preparing the people for a revelation...releasing videos, all of a sudden we have government agencies set up for UAP investigations...all of a sudden we have this steady stream of whistleblowers, congressional hearings......

People like me will tell you it's about as blatant and obvious an orchestrated psy-op as you can imagine....but if you are pre-disposed to believe, it is downright impossible to not be caught up in the psy-op.

Yes, I know...or at least have a damned good guess, of the purpose and direction of the psy-op, but this isn't the place for that discussion.
 
zeke mowatt said:
Fugging case closed.
This is exactly my point but made much better than I ever could. Is the sh*t theoretically possible? Maybe but the likelihood is next to nil. Impossible to overstate the odds against it.

One point touched on here is how long would a civilization have to exist to achieve this level of tech? How long does a typical planet or solar system avoid catastrophe? A species avoid extinction?

I’m not saying a highly intelligent form of life couldn’t exist. Past, present future it’s possible probable likely. The odds our time and space and theirs overlap is essentially none.
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I probably should have elaborated a bit more on the warp drive bit, so I will add to it here;

The amount of energy required to bend spacetime into a bubble, would be more than enough to create a black hole....so essentially, you would sit in your spaceship, turn on the warp drive, and instantly transform into a black hole.

In fact, in a manner of speaking.....black holes ARE a real world example of a warp bubble.

There is another aspect of bending spacetime like that, in that you end up inverting spacetime. Spacetime becomes Timespace. Any directional movement becomes movement through time, whereas space moves around you in a manner you can't control or manipulate....just like time moves around us in a single direction at a certain velocity.

So, we know that, as we move faster through space...covering more space in less time, time dilates and slows down, same with being in a gravity field. Once you turn yourself into a black hole, you can only move through time, and space moves around you. This is, in fact, how warp speed works....space moves around you as you accelerate through time.

Here's the most massively ignored and overlooked part in most theoretical and science fiction models of warp speed travel.....what happens when you turn it off? More to the point.....is it even possible to turn it off once you have turned it on? Once you create a warp bubble, how do you pop the bubble? What happens when you pop the bubble....energy is conserved, so all of that energy has to go somewhere.

Chances are, if you succeed in creating your warp bubble, you have separated yourself permanently from the know universe, and will be trapped in your own little warp bubble universe forever, just like a black hole. There is no escape, it is a one way trip out of the universe into your own, personal, eternal prison universe.

If you figure out how to turn it off....how does all that energy get dispersed? If you used it to fly to another solar system, and you can turn it off, that energy will be dispersed, and in some way, it will annihilate your ship, you, and the solar system you arrived at in an explosion on the order of 1000 supernovas. It would be the most impressive "going out in a blaze of glory" the universe has ever seen.
 
Baron Samedi said:
I probably should have elaborated a bit more on the warp drive bit, so I will add to it here;

The amount of energy required to bend spacetime into a bubble, would be more than enough to create a black hole....so essentially, you would sit in your spaceship, turn on the warp drive, and instantly transform into a black hole.

In fact, in a manner of speaking.....black holes ARE a real world example of a warp bubble.

There is another aspect of bending spacetime like that, in that you end up inverting spacetime. Spacetime becomes Timespace. Any directional movement becomes movement through time, whereas space moves around you in a manner you can't control or manipulate....just like time moves around us in a single direction at a certain velocity.

So, we know that, as we move faster through space...covering more space in less time, time dilates and slows down, same with being in a gravity field. Once you turn yourself into a black hole, you can only move through time, and space moves around you. This is, in fact, how warp speed works....space moves around you as you accelerate through time.

Here's the most massively ignored and overlooked part in most theoretical and science fiction models of warp speed travel.....what happens when you turn it off? More to the point.....is it even possible to turn it off once you have turned it on? Once you create a warp bubble, how do you pop the bubble? What happens when you pop the bubble....energy is conserved, so all of that energy has to go somewhere.

Chances are, if you succeed in creating your warp bubble, you have separated yourself permanently from the know universe, and will be trapped in your own little warp bubble universe forever, just like a black hole. There is no escape, it is a one way trip out of the universe into your own, personal, eternal prison universe.

If you figure out how to turn it off....how does all that energy get dispersed? If you used it to fly to another solar system, and you can turn it off, that energy will be dispersed, and in some way, it will annihilate your ship, you, and the solar system you arrived at in an explosion on the order of 1000 supernovas. It would be the most impressive "going out in a blaze of glory" the universe has ever seen.
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I like the logic here, but there is a caveat. We used to think the sun revolved around the earth, we used to think the earth was flat, we only recently understood nuclear fission/fusion. What I am saying is that the argument above is based on what we know today and believe to be true. But our understanding is of how the universe works is akin to a toddler's understanding of the world around him, it that. The science/logic holds up by today's standards, but may be laughable in the future. Just sayinig...
 
Baron Samedi said:
I probably should have elaborated a bit more on the warp drive bit, so I will add to it here;

The amount of energy required to bend spacetime into a bubble, would be more than enough to create a black hole....so essentially, you would sit in your spaceship, turn on the warp drive, and instantly transform into a black hole.

In fact, in a manner of speaking.....black holes ARE a real world example of a warp bubble.

There is another aspect of bending spacetime like that, in that you end up inverting spacetime. Spacetime becomes Timespace. Any directional movement becomes movement through time, whereas space moves around you in a manner you can't control or manipulate....just like time moves around us in a single direction at a certain velocity.

So, we know that, as we move faster through space...covering more space in less time, time dilates and slows down, same with being in a gravity field. Once you turn yourself into a black hole, you can only move through time, and space moves around you. This is, in fact, how warp speed works....space moves around you as you accelerate through time.

Here's the most massively ignored and overlooked part in most theoretical and science fiction models of warp speed travel.....what happens when you turn it off? More to the point.....is it even possible to turn it off once you have turned it on? Once you create a warp bubble, how do you pop the bubble? What happens when you pop the bubble....energy is conserved, so all of that energy has to go somewhere.

Chances are, if you succeed in creating your warp bubble, you have separated yourself permanently from the know universe, and will be trapped in your own little warp bubble universe forever, just like a black hole. There is no escape, it is a one way trip out of the universe into your own, personal, eternal prison universe.

If you figure out how to turn it off....how does all that energy get dispersed? If you used it to fly to another solar system, and you can turn it off, that energy will be dispersed, and in some way, it will annihilate your ship, you, and the solar system you arrived at in an explosion on the order of 1000 supernovas. It would be the most impressive "going out in a blaze of glory" the universe has ever seen.
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Word.
 
Baron Samedi said:
I probably should have elaborated a bit more on the warp drive bit, so I will add to it here;

The amount of energy required to bend spacetime into a bubble, would be more than enough to create a black hole....so essentially, you would sit in your spaceship, turn on the warp drive, and instantly transform into a black hole.

In fact, in a manner of speaking.....black holes ARE a real world example of a warp bubble.

There is another aspect of bending spacetime like that, in that you end up inverting spacetime. Spacetime becomes Timespace. Any directional movement becomes movement through time, whereas space moves around you in a manner you can't control or manipulate....just like time moves around us in a single direction at a certain velocity.

So, we know that, as we move faster through space...covering more space in less time, time dilates and slows down, same with being in a gravity field. Once you turn yourself into a black hole, you can only move through time, and space moves around you. This is, in fact, how warp speed works....space moves around you as you accelerate through time.

Here's the most massively ignored and overlooked part in most theoretical and science fiction models of warp speed travel.....what happens when you turn it off? More to the point.....is it even possible to turn it off once you have turned it on? Once you create a warp bubble, how do you pop the bubble? What happens when you pop the bubble....energy is conserved, so all of that energy has to go somewhere.

Chances are, if you succeed in creating your warp bubble, you have separated yourself permanently from the know universe, and will be trapped in your own little warp bubble universe forever, just like a black hole. There is no escape, it is a one way trip out of the universe into your own, personal, eternal prison universe.

If you figure out how to turn it off....how does all that energy get dispersed? If you used it to fly to another solar system, and you can turn it off, that energy will be dispersed, and in some way, it will annihilate your ship, you, and the solar system you arrived at in an explosion on the order of 1000 supernovas. It would be the most impressive "going out in a blaze of glory" the universe has ever seen.
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I like the seriousness and holding yourself accountable to defend a stated position. But you're speaking with a lot of authority about a purely hypothetical thing.

Alternatively, traversing distances like that could be wildly simple. Ever read Flatland? Science has as a requirement accepting unknown unknowns. Things that are difficult or impossible within the universe perceivable to us could be trivial given other perceptions that we can't imagine. There are cave fish that have no sensors to detect light. Explain lasers, a sunrise, or a rainbow to them.

As I've repeatedly said, I have no dog in this fight, don't feel strongly pro- or con-, and am much more interested in the question of how governments are behaving, in the case that this stuff is 100% true, totally fabricated, or somewhere in the middle. But stating with authority that it's impossible? Total nonsense.

Whether they want to admit it, anyone who comes down decisively on this issue one way or the other is, unless they have personally seen non-human intelligent/techno-capable life, stating an article of faith.
 
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