The Outside the Box Thoughts with No Accountability Thread

Since Wendy seems to have retreated to Neverland, perhaps we should rename this the "Grid/Yankee Appreciation Thread".

Hah!! Yeah, I'm afraid so!! oLOL

I LOVE this kind of attention ~ you know me: Unrepentant Attention Hoar!! ~ until about 60 seconds later...Now I'm gonna have to suck it up, stay awake another hour, and RESPOND to Wendy's bits, so I can BURY these accolades and mutual pats on the back!! :jester:

They won't ever be forgotten, though, gents. May the Gods of your choices BLESS you!! Hah!! And I meant every word!! Now...to FootBall, if it pleases ye!!
 
With that out of the way, the first whackjob idea:
As more and more athletic QBs filter into the league, I think it's about time that someone get creative and play around with a 2 QB set.
- Picture RGIII going to Denver, for example. Tebow and 3 are in a variety of option formations. Defenses stack the box at their own peril, because as a pitchman, either of them can suddenly plant and throw or just throw on the run.
- In an option system, TEs and WRs are called upon to block (okay, rules guy, I mean "take a screening position.") In a 2 QB option they can slip their block at any time and head into a pattern, on purpose or simply if they can't hold the block.
- Both guys are dangerous running the ball. And say what you want about Tebow's passing ability, you have to respect it as a legitimate threat/possibility until he crosses the LOS.

X's and O's thoughts around this:
In a traditional option/triple option, the DE or OLB (depending on they offensive and defensive systems) is left unblocked, and the QB reads his action. If he comes down at the QB, pitch, if he floats out towards the pitchman, keep and go off the downblocking OT's butt.

I'm picturing a TE on the playside. The player between the OT and the TE is left unblocked, and the TE releases into one of several patterns. For example, if the guy on his outside shoulder is headed into the backfield he could run a 5/10 and out. If that guy is trying to prevent an outside release he releases inside on a slant, and if he doesn't stay with him to cover it's a Z-cut to be a release valve. If they're playing the run hard with a softer zone underneath he settles under the safety and finds the hole in the zone. If the guy sticks with him, then screw it, run him across the field away from the play until he's in the Sudetenland. That's better than a pancake block.

Think: on a wide sweep, the defense tries to beat the back to the corner and force him to cut back to the inside. To do this they have to flatten out in a line to fill those lanes, or else cutting back inside is worse than the back getting to the corner. This uses up a bunch of people - defended well in the traditional style it pulls in the CB on that side as well as safeties and backers. It is one of the slowest developing plays in football. If that "back" is Tebow or Griffin, all that time is time that the DBs have to stay with their man.


To make this work, you'd need 2 QBs that can run or pass - not necessarily at the highest levels, because you're "giving" them additional effectiveness by slowing the defense with uncertainty, but they have to be at least colorable threats for either, and be able to read defenses.
  • At the highest end of the spectrum, Vick/Rodgers/Newton/Griffin.
  • Mid-level guys could be Tebow/Vince Young.
  • Low level possibilities could be your Julian Edlemans, Pat Whites, etc.
In terms of cap, paying 2 "starting QBs" is rough (and realistically you'd need at least one other guy you're not afraid to roll out there), but I think it would be okay for a few reasons.
  • This system would allow a lot of those guys who were college stars and crappy pros an opportunity to use the pure instincts that made them successful in a league that has traditionally punished that. I'm thinking Seneca Wallace, Andre Ware, Eric Crouch, Doug Flutie, etc.
  • I think you'd be able to use at least one of them that another team would not consider a "starter." Guys that other teams consider a tweener, a conversion project, or simply are shorter than 6'2" fall in the draft, so you can acquire prospects cheaply.
  • Similarly, you can likely acquire guys like this on the cheap in FA once they've failed with their first team.
  • So I'd forsee paying 3 guys a salary that totals something around franchise level. If you've had success in this system, the QBs are going to be stars which may unbalance it over time, but on the other hand you can be pretty sure that you're not going to be spending huge money for RBs and stud WRs. I think it would more or less balance out in the end.
Which leads me to my next point - what does a team that is built for this look like? I hadn't thought through this one too deeply, but off the top of my head I'd think that if you have 53 players, 25 on offense, it would break down like this:
  • 5 starting OLs, 3-4 backups - they have to be good in space, but the stud pass blocking LT who can give you 3-4 seconds in the pocket against an edge rush is much less of a priority. I think overall you save money here.
  • 4-5 QBs - As discussed above. I think you save money here in early days, but if you establish a star you'll spend somewhat above what other teams spend on the position. At the same time, I think you can constantly be fishing for cheap options.
  • 2-3 RBs, 1 FB - you don't need a stud here, you should definitely save money. Very much fungible, even though you're running a lot.
  • 3-4 WRs - Hines Ward would be tremendous in this system - tremendous blocker who excels at finding the holes in a zone and running short routes. You'd want at least one decent deep threat, but you don't need a true #1 by any stretch. Definitely save money.
  • 3-4 TEs - TEs will be used extensively in this system because of their block/recieve flexibility. I can see a lot of 2 TE sets, as well as the possibility of a bunch of 3 TE combinations - 3 TE, 1 WR, 2 QB could be very, very dangerous. This is a place you'd likely spend some extra dollars. If you had Gronk & Hernandez in this system it would be...fun to watch.
I know that the option doesn't work well in the NFL, and I understand why (that the OLBs are too fast and can get away with not committing to either pitch man or QB). I think this is a different story for a number of reasons.

I also can see this working in a non-option system, though it would be less fluid and more gimmicky. But I'm sure I haven't thought through all the possibilities.

I've been carrying this around in my head for a long time now, thinking it can work. I'm better off not carrying wrong ideas around, so please tear it apart! I'll probably push back, but I'm not trying to win the point, just flesh out the argument.

Wow.

I kinda LOVE this ~ in fact I posted something LIKE this on PatsFans, back a ways!! ~ but I can see I'm gonna need to block off 4-6 hours to give it the response this post ALONE warrants. :blink:

Maybe I HAD better defer to next week...

By then, perhaps we'll know if Wendy's Staying Power matches her Wattage. :coffee:
 
I must say this is Patriots Planet...it is not the other site mentioned and policy has been to try not to knock other patriots messageboards so I ask that you all kindly respect that.

I also am suggesting that most of this should have been done by PM to the ones involved and is not what is typical of this board. So again I ask you kindly respect that and if you have an issue do not air your dirty bloomers for all to see your skid marks but address the man himself. Success is easier to achieve when the direct approach is taken.

So fanaticalYankee I am happy to see you have fans here but I suggest you do as I suggest and contact the man/women himself and not act like an upset child... See my direct approach there, I posted for all to see, to use your as a teaching moment here. So try the PM button, it is only a click away.
 
See my direct approach there, I posted for all to see, to use your as a teaching moment here.

To be quite honest, I find this condescending and offensive. Any excessive verbage had already been dealt with, and this seems like just a chance to flout authority. To be sure, there are lines that shouldn't be crossed, but the board is dependent for it's vitality on differences of opinion and creative posters as much as posters are dependent on the board as a forum to exchange ideas, and there should be a level of tolerance on both sides.
 
From my pov this discourse has been HighLy entertaining and has hurt no one. I chuckled quite loudly more than a few times.
:thumb:
 
To be quite honest, I find this condescending and offensive. Any excessive verbage had already been dealt with, and this seems like just a chance to flout authority. To be sure, there are lines that shouldn't be crossed, but the board is dependent for it's vitality on differences of opinion and creative posters as much as posters are dependent on the board as a forum to exchange ideas, and there should be a level of tolerance on both sides.

1st I am glad to see you around despite our disagreement here.


now despite that I still say bullshit, if FY didn't bring it up again within the hour and a half I wouldn't have addressed it.

maybe it is not a flouting authority but trying to put a stop to the whole thing. I know he is a friend of yours so maybe you are not seeing his claims as I do being a Mod here. I ask, do you walk into someone's living room and just throw your feet on the coffee table and spill your drink and expect to be welcomed with open arms?

two points bother me so I addressed them.

1. I feel an issue with a mod should be dealt with between the two, not posted for all to see. FY should have addressed the two mods directly, shown them the respect he claims he wants. simple actually..if he wants an explanation..ask the man directly.

2. I now understand many fleeing Patsfan, I understand as I left years ago and we welcome the posters but the planet has always frowned on putting down other message boards. Why would I allow it now?

I was said my peace and appreciate your imput, we can disagree but we should all move on.
 
now despite that I still say bullshit, if FY didn't bring it up again within the hour and a half I wouldn't have addressed it.

Fair enough. I think that's a reasonable position.

maybe it is not a flouting authority but trying to put a stop to the whole thing.

I have no problem with trying to put a stop to the whole thing. I did that myself as soon as there were sparks flying, and I thought it had been put to rest. It was only the sentence that I highlighted in my response that I found a bit heavyhanded and condescending - it came across as "please air your disagreements in private, but I'm going to go this in public as an example to all you children so that you don't have to be put in timeout".

I know he is a friend of yours so maybe you are not seeing his claims as I do being a Mod here. I ask, do you walk into someone's living room and just throw your feet on the coffee table and spill your drink and expect to be welcomed with open arms?

Not at all. I'm a huge admirer or Yankee/Grid's work and insight, but he is quite volatile, and we've had our own spats over the PM network. In my experience he is generous but mercurial, quick to anger and quick to forgive. I told him when he first took umbrage that he was overreacting, and I tried to stop the sparks as soon as they showed signs again. Regardless of personal like or dislike I think he has a tremendous amount to offer this board, and it would be a shame to have spats of this sort get in the way. Many of us are quirky, and that can be both irritating and appealing - some of the more beloved posters on these boards are quite quirky, but their substantive contributions stand on their own, and over time the quirkiness becomes familiar and even amusing, as opposed to offensive.

As I stated above, I think that there are lines that should not be crossed, but I also think there is a need for tolerance. It's a balance, and not an easy one. Not to bring up the "other board" comparisons, but I've been offered mod positions elsewhere and turned them down, in part because I don't want to be policing others.

two points bother me so I addressed them.

1. I feel an issue with a mod should be dealt with between the two, not posted for all to see. FY should have addressed the two mods directly, shown them the respect he claims he wants. simple actually..if he wants an explanation..ask the man directly.

I would agree, and I encouraged the same response. It just seemed a little hypocritical to make a public point about dealing with something in private.

2. I now understand many fleeing Patsfan, I understand as I left years ago and we welcome the posters but the planet has always frowned on putting down other message boards. Why would I allow it now?

One the one hand, I agree about not "putting down" another board. On the other hand, many of us - yourself included, apparently - left other boards because of frustrations with issues over how exchanges were done on those boards, and it's relevant to discuss how one would prefer to see a board conducted. These efforts are in some ways an attempt to fashion a civil social order. Issues such as posters attacking one another, vituperative language, mods flaunting their authority and acting as if there are a double standard are germane. Most of us are here because we believe the Planet offers a more civilized milieu in general than other places, and because of the quality of the discussion. Those two things are related - a better forum attracts quality discussion, and quality discussion helps build a better forum. So as long as it's not done in the spirit of simply "bashing" another board but in a constructive effort to better the dialog on this board, I don't think it's inappropriate.

I was said my peace and appreciate your imput, we can disagree but we should all move on.

Amen to that, and no offense taken, at least on my part. It would be nice to put all this kind of stuff behind and get back to substantive discussions.
 
Wendy has tremendous verticity, but her core strength appears to be lacking. :shrug:

I give you props for using a word that I didn't know. See an old dog can still learn new tricks.

:toast:

VERTICITY :
a tendency (as shown by a magnetized needle) to turn toward a magnetic pole [the old window stanchions had become magnetic, proving, as he thinks, that iron acquires verticity — Walter Pater]
 
I give you props for using a word that I didn't know. See an old dog can still learn new tricks.

:toast:

VERTICITY :
a tendency (as shown by a magnetized needle) to turn toward a magnetic pole [the old window stanchions had become magnetic, proving, as he thinks, that iron acquires verticity — Walter Pater]

So you are saying that our Wendy is the new Margaret Thatcher or that she is polarizing?



:confused:
 
So you are saying that our Wendy is the new Margaret Thatcher or that she is polarizing?



:confused:

The only thing I said, was that I learned a new word, verticity.

You'll have to ask MC if he was trying to compare her to Thatcher (or whatever the eff he was talking about).

:shrug:
 
Ok I am confused....is anyone in trouble, and was I involved, thats all I want to know.:coffee:
 
I give you props for using a word that I didn't know. See an old dog can still learn new tricks.

:toast:

VERTICITY :
a tendency (as shown by a magnetized needle) to turn toward a magnetic pole [the old window stanchions had become magnetic, proving, as he thinks, that iron acquires verticity — Walter Pater]

It's not original to me - it's an Off the Gridism: "verticity = turn + burn acuity, to you Earthlings!", to be precise. >)

So you are saying that our Wendy is the new Margaret Thatcher or that she is polarizing?

:confused:

Nope. Wendy can "turn and burn" with the best of them, but based on her responses so far, she lacks core strength and stamina to hold up for the long run. She's a "fast twitch" poster. Hope she gets on a conditioning program and develops some stamina for the long haul, as she has a lot to offer.
 
Middy No one has been in trouble, discussions take place.. I see no feeling hurt but if you want to sacrifice yourself let me know :D

So this Wendy's Peter seems to be making quite a stir amongst the football minds... Nice to see.
 
Nope. Wendy can "turn and burn" with the best of them, but based on her responses so far, she lacks core strength and stamina to hold up for the long run. She's a "fast twitch" poster. Hope she gets on a conditioning program and develops some stamina for the long haul, as she has a lot to offer.


So.........draftable, or UDFA?

:coffee:
 
Just to be clear, I'm not "bashing" that other board. Probably the majority of posters there are fine - bringing good info, thoughtful analysis and congeniality to discussions. I mean, I still regularly lurk in the "Draft Talk" forum for the info and insights.

My only problem there is that, far too often, someone with a black/white view of the world and football knowledge based primarily on ESPN headlines or Florio rumors will butt into the middle of a reasonable and friendly discussion and jump on a comment I've posted (completely misrepresenting my POV) and doggedly pursue me with personal attacks, apparently until I admit that they are "right" and I am "wrong" (and an idiot for even THINKING something that they object to).

So, I simply do not want to post there. Too many unpleasant incidents. I will miss the good discussions I've had over there, but . . . there are only so many hours in a day and I choose not to spend them in unproductive defense against unreasonable people.
 
I stopped posting there too.. I was there to visit box, bf80 and several others I enjoyed. Life gives us limits and I limited myself to here and Soxplanet..

All is good...... so two quarterbacks? sound like Peyton and Tebow may make tthis happen.
 
You guys have a terrific Site, here.

Please accept my best wishes for its continued success.
 
Back
Top