Will we see more 4-3 this year?

[Tchok13]

Complete shot in the dark here but
Will we see more 4-3 this year?

Throw Brace and Wilfork in the middle of that and I can see some magic there.

Or I'm I reading into it too much?
Thoughts?

 

[midgar8784]

Complete shot in the dark here but
Will we see more 4-3 this year?

Throw Brace and Wilfork in the middle of that and I can see some magic there.

Or I'm I reading into it too much?
Thoughts?

No I am on board with you, because I dont know who our other OLB is at this point and brace is basically a solid pick for a 4-3 with wilfork, at this point I dont know because I missed so badly on this draft I dont know what is going on anymore, if you would have told me the pats would not have taken a linebacker in the first two rounds I would have laughed at you. Although I do like the guys we got, but....damn.

 

[Flagg the Wanderer]

Somehow I don't see BB shifting his entire defensive philosophy to chase the old Raven's "Lardbelly 4-3."

Interestingly, I COULD see Wilfork making the same transition Seymour made, from hard-nosed young NT to devastating strength/speed combo DE that is a threat to collapse the pocket or suck up an OT/TE combo and still get to the play. He's a bit squat, though. I know BB loves his batted down balls.

I'll say this, though - if BB dreamed up a true 2 gap 4-3 on the back of a napkin this offseason, he has the ideal cast of characters to launch it. I don't know about you, but I think Thomas, Mayo, and JThomas/Redd/Crable/Woods/Guyton can pretty much run free to the ball behind the combined 1300 incredibly skilled pounds of Warren, Wilfork, Seymour, and Brace. I'm also thinking that you could take wider splits with that crew and pretty much prevent TEs from releasing inside - ever.

More likely, though, it's just Wilfork insurance, whether injury or contract.

 

[TipRoast]

Just a hunch, but maybe BB crunched the numbers and looked at how many times the Pats had 5 and even 6 DBs on the field, and figured that the defensive position with the least men on the field on a per down basis is LB (as compared to DLs and DBs).

So maybe LB is not a premium position for him anymore.

 

[midgar8784]

Just a hunch, but maybe BB crunched the numbers and looked at how many times the Pats had 5 and even 6 DBs on the field, and figured that the defensive position with the least men on the field on a per down basis is LB (as compared to DLs and DBs).

So maybe LB is not a premium position for him anymore.

yeah but I think we had that many DB's because we could not get pressure on the Qb last year, not sure that will be fixed next year.

 

[tehmackdaddy]

Somehow I don't see BB shifting his entire defensive philosophy to chase the old Raven's "Lardbelly 4-3."

I know the Pats often moved to a 4-3 alignment two, maybe three seasons ago when you were having problems stopping the run. Brace, imho, is insurance and a good prospect for you to develop.

Your scenario of Warren, Wilfork, Brace, and Seymour with all the 250-270 pound linebackers roaming around is a bit of a stretch (though I can sense you're being hypothetical). Teams would pass over you all day with that lineup as you don't have the backers to cover.

 

[Flagg the Wanderer]

I know the Pats often moved to a 4-3 alignment two, maybe three seasons ago when you were having problems stopping the run. Brace, imho, is insurance and a good prospect for you to develop.

Your scenario of Warren, Wilfork, Brace, and Seymour with all the 250-270 pound linebackers roaming around is a bit of a stretch (though I can sense you're being hypothetical). Teams would pass over you all day with that lineup as you don't have the backers to cover.

They've run out of the 4-3 quite a bit, actually, though usually that meant McGinest and later Colvin/Thomas put a hand on the ground.

As far as LBs in coverage, you're a fool to doubt Adalius Thomas in that role. But outside of him you're probably correct. (Oddly enough, Wilfork is a helluva cover man. No kidding.)

Yes, I was being hypothetical, but mostly highlighting the philosophical difference between 2-gapping and 1-gapping, and the sorts of players required for each. Seymour can do both extremely well from the tackle or end position, with the exception of being a true 4-3 rush end like Suggs. Wilfork, in a 4-5, would be a devestating 3-technique tackle ala Warren Sapp and could function as a run-stopper as well. Warren is best used as a 2-gapper - he's perfect for it. Brace? In a 4-3 he'd be Tony Siragusa, and that's about all. Valuable, but not his most valuable use.

As for the LB's size - that's where the rubber meets the road. Our LBs are built to take on the OL, not run around them.

 

[Flagg the Wanderer]

Just a hunch, but maybe BB crunched the numbers and looked at how many times the Pats had 5 and even 6 DBs on the field, and figured that the defensive position with the least men on the field on a per down basis is LB (as compared to DLs and DBs).

So maybe LB is not a premium position for him anymore.

Hmm. On a total usage/game basis, maybe, but on a per-down basis, we use more LBs than DLs. But we rotate our DL more.

 

[TipRoast]

Hmm. On a total usage/game basis, maybe, but on a per-down basis, we use more LBs than DLs. But we rotate our DL more.

But when a nickel or dime package is put in, who comes out? It's not often one of the d linemen (although on occasion last year Vrabel or Thomas would line up with a hand on the ground). I'm guessing the Pats would go to a 3-3-5 or 3-2-6 when they faced the spread. (I'm not a hard-core football guy, so please let me know if I'm way off-base here.) Having fresh defensive linemen to create a pass rush, and a lot of good DBs to cover, may be the BB way next year.

 

[Flagg the Wanderer]

But when a nickel or dime package is put in, who comes out? It's not often one of the d linemen (although on occasion last year Vrabel or Thomas would line up with a hand on the ground). I'm guessing the Pats would go to a 3-3-5 or 3-2-6 when they faced the spread. (I'm not a hard-core football guy, so please let me know if I'm way off-base here.) Having fresh defensive linemen to create a pass rush, and a lot of good DBs to cover, may be the BB way next year.

Eh, maybe. With McGinest, Colvin, Vrable, and Thomas, it'd almost be hard to measure without going to an actual play-by-play with personnel changes listed. All of them (and some others, actually) played with their hands on the ground pretty often.

I take your point, though.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Somehow I don't see BB shifting his entire defensive philosophy to chase the old Raven's "Lardbelly 4-3."

Interestingly, I COULD see Wilfork making the same transition Seymour made, from hard-nosed young NT to devastating strength/speed combo DE that is a threat to collapse the pocket or suck up an OT/TE combo and still get to the play. He's a bit squat, though. I know BB loves his batted down balls.

I'll say this, though - if BB dreamed up a true 2 gap 4-3 on the back of a napkin this offseason, he has the ideal cast of characters to launch it. I don't know about you, but I think Thomas, Mayo, and JThomas/Redd/Crable/Woods/Guyton can pretty much run free to the ball behind the combined 1300 incredibly skilled pounds of Warren, Wilfork, Seymour, and Brace. I'm also thinking that you could take wider splits with that crew and pretty much prevent TEs from releasing inside - ever.

More likely, though, it's just Wilfork insurance, whether injury or contract.

Philly plays a two-gap 4-3.

For tmack: Philly's three LBs are all big NE-sized lads, I know because two of them are guys I badly wanted for NE in the 2006 and 2007 drafts.

Crable played SLB for Michigan and was an NCAA leader in TFL his senior season. Mayo has played both WLB and MLB. Guyton has played both WLB and SLB. Adalius can play DE, MLB, and SLB. Wood can play SLB. Alexander is a former MLB. TBC is a DE. Redd can play DE, SLB, and even slide inside on passing downs. All of the DL can play either 3-4 or 4-3.

With the new speed at LB, NE might deal with Miami's wild-kitty with a heavy DL and let the speedy LBs play side-to-side.

I still think NE stays base 3-4.

 

[Jaric]

Those two in the middle on goal line situations would be terrible to run at.

 

[tehmackdaddy]

For tmack: Philly's three LBs are all big NE-sized lads, I know because two of them are guys I badly wanted for NE in the 2006 and 2007 drafts.

Jim Johnson most certainly does play a more aggressive, powerful 4-3 defense than most, but that doesn't speak to your LB's playing well in coverage. Philly has had a much better secondary that has allowed them to rely on the front 7 for pressure, whereas NE does not have that same luxury.

NE's LB's are not built/drafted/coached to play in a 4-3. In coverage, your backers are lacking. You're going to rely more on pushing the pocket and creating pressure than coverage, and if an elite QB such as Manning has enough time, the receiving options will tear that defense apart.

 

[shirtsleeve]

Philly plays a two-gap 4-3.

For tmack: Philly's three LBs are all big NE-sized lads, I know because two of them are guys I badly wanted for NE in the 2006 and 2007 drafts.

Crable played SLB for Michigan and was an NCAA leader in TFL his senior season. Mayo has played both WLB and MLB. Guyton has played both WLB and SLB. Adalius can play DE, MLB, and SLB. Wood can play SLB. Alexander is a former MLB. TBC is a DE. Redd can play DE, SLB, and even slide inside on passing downs. All of the DL can play either 3-4 or 4-3.

With the new speed at LB, NE might deal with Miami's wild-kitty with a heavy DL and let the speedy LBs play side-to-side.

I still think NE stays base 3-4.

And please dont remind me of the lost opportunities of the 06 draft.

FTW!

Yup. The Pats frequently use a 2 gap 4-3 situationally.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Jim Johnson most certainly does play a more aggressive, powerful 4-3 defense than most, but that doesn't speak to your LB's playing well in coverage. Philly has had a much better secondary that has allowed them to rely on the front 7 for pressure, whereas NE does not have that same luxury.

NE's LB's are not built/drafted/coached to play in a 4-3. In coverage, your backers are lacking. You're going to rely more on pushing the pocket and creating pressure than coverage, and if an elite QB such as Manning has enough time, the receiving options will tear that defense apart.

Granted NE and Philly have built their defenses differently, other than kill the QB and field 3 Pro Bowl DBs and one who should have gone too in the secondary, I don't have much detail on how BB might go about matching his personnel to a similar defense - but then again I'm not really expecting him to go away from "his" style of defense.

As to our Linebackers...BB may not have the converted SS coverage Linebackers of Indy, but Mayo was actually considered a fair coverage LB coming out and Guyton was the surprise of that Combine with his athleticism, who knows what they can do as they adapt and learn.