Can't Find the Old DG thread, so Here's A New One

[Patriots71]

Where the sky in falling . Full on nuclear panic mode. I read nothing in 3 days but Berman decision will be reserved . Goodell lied in court. Brady lawyers had a bad day in court articles . Just 3 days after the appeals hearing .

They do not seem to care if the NFl lies or not. I have seen courts in the congo be more fair than this.

 

[PatsFanLisa]

Yeah but what facts were presented and were both lawyers allowed to see the facts presented. I mean they barely had 15 minutes to even say their peace. Its hard to just say ok with 15 minutes to give your side we are going to rule against a Judge.

The judges have had the entire file produced by both sides with every document to support their side that was available and filed with the federal court for months. Yesterday was just a last ditch opportunity for each side to offer a summary argument.

 

[king of kings]

Funny how tides turn with media coverage. Last week was all possible story about brady appeal. Now it all turned negative

 

[deec77]

Not completely. Since they heard argument de novo, it kind of means with fresh eyes.

This is where I'm really confused because when I'm told by the courts to look at something with "fresh eyes." I'm asked to look at things without prejudice. I have no idea what it means in the total legal environment though.

~Dee~

 

[deec77]

This is where I'm really confused because when I'm told by the courts to look at something with "fresh eyes." I'm asked to look at things without prejudice. I have no idea what it means in the total legal environment though.

~Dee~

Just as without prejudice means something totally different to the legal community

 

[bishbash]

Apologies if this recent article by Sally Jenkins was already mentioned. It just appeared on the sports page of my local paper.
If you haven't read it, ya gotta:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...003de0-e172-11e5-8d98-4b3d9215ade1_story.html

In it she writes of a 3rd party brief submitted to the court by Legal scholar Robert Blecker. About the best thing I've read on the whole debacle:

"On Thursday, the second-highest court in the land was to hear oral arguments on whether it should affirm or reverse, on narrow procedural grounds, District Judge Richard Berman’s decision to throw out Goodell’s four-game suspension of Brady. But a little-noticed and powerfully written third-party brief by renowned legal scholar Robert Blecker lays out a third option for the court to consider. Blecker argues that the court should find Goodell’s arbitration process was “infected with bias, evident partiality, unfairness and fraud,” and he doesn’t stop there.

He makes the delightfully explosive suggestion that the appellate court could remand the case to Berman and order the NFL to share its investigative files — which were withheld from Brady’s team during the hearing process, denying him the basic fairness of knowing what the supposed evidence against him was. There are major questions as to whether the league guided the so-called independent investigation and whether Goodell was truly an honest, unbiased arbiter."

The article just gets better from there. So, PFL and other legal eagles, how much influence do 3rd party briefs typically have on judges? Or does it depend on what their clerks emphasize?

 

[chevss454]

Apologies if this recent article by Sally Jenkins was already mentioned. It just appeared on the sports page of my local paper.
If you haven't read it, ya gotta:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...003de0-e172-11e5-8d98-4b3d9215ade1_story.html

In it she writes of a 3rd party brief submitted to the court by Legal scholar Robert Blecker.

"On Thursday, the second-highest court in the land was to hear oral arguments on whether it should affirm or reverse, on narrow procedural grounds, District Judge Richard Berman’s decision to throw out Goodell’s four-game suspension of Brady. But a little-noticed and powerfully written third-party brief by renowned legal scholar Robert Blecker lays out a third option for the court to consider. Blecker argues that the court should find Goodell’s arbitration process was “infected with bias, evident partiality, unfairness and fraud,” and he doesn’t stop there.

He makes the delightfully explosive suggestion that the appellate court could remand the case to Berman and order the NFL to share its investigative files — which were withheld from Brady’s team during the hearing process, denying him the basic fairness of knowing what the supposed evidence against him was. There are major questions as to whether the league guided the so-called independent investigation and whether Goodell was truly an honest, unbiased arbiter."

The article just gets better from there. So, PFL and other legal eagles, how much influence do 3rd party briefs typically have on judges? Or does it depend on what their clerks emphasize?

Sally Jenkins knows what Goodell is all about. She's wonderful.

 

[bishbash]

...and here's an article stating NFL Lawyer lied in court:

http://nesn.com/2016/03/nfl-lawyer-reportedly-lied-to-judges-during-thursdays-deflategate-appeal/

 

[PatsFanLisa]

Apologies if this recent article by Sally Jenkins was already mentioned. It just appeared on the sports page of my local paper.
If you haven't read it, ya gotta:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...003de0-e172-11e5-8d98-4b3d9215ade1_story.html

In it she writes of a 3rd party brief submitted to the court by Legal scholar Robert Blecker. About the best thing I've read on the whole debacle:

"On Thursday, the second-highest court in the land was to hear oral arguments on whether it should affirm or reverse, on narrow procedural grounds, District Judge Richard Berman’s decision to throw out Goodell’s four-game suspension of Brady. But a little-noticed and powerfully written third-party brief by renowned legal scholar Robert Blecker lays out a third option for the court to consider. Blecker argues that the court should find Goodell’s arbitration process was “infected with bias, evident partiality, unfairness and fraud,” and he doesn’t stop there.

He makes the delightfully explosive suggestion that the appellate court could remand the case to Berman and order the NFL to share its investigative files — which were withheld from Brady’s team during the hearing process, denying him the basic fairness of knowing what the supposed evidence against him was. There are major questions as to whether the league guided the so-called independent investigation and whether Goodell was truly an honest, unbiased arbiter."

The article just gets better from there. So, PFL and other legal eagles, how much influence do 3rd party briefs typically have on judges? Or does it depend on what their clerks emphasize?

I had seen Blecker's amicus brief when it was first submitted and thought it was very powerful. He's very well known, especially in New York. There's no doubt the judges are familiar with him, and I thought his submission would be seen as persuasive. And it may have been because we have no clue how the judges will ultimately rule.

There was also a third-party brief, along with other filings throughout the course of the trial at the lower level and now at this level, by a woman named Michelle McGuirk. While well written, she has been dismissed as an eccentric. I haven't figured out what her deal is, who she is, whether she's having an attorney write her filings or whether she's written them herself. That are in perfect legalese, so she's either hired an attorney or she is an attorney, though I haven't been able to locate her in any databases. Anyway, her amicus would likely carry no weight.

So, I guess it really depends on who's writing as a friend of the court for it to be looked upon seriously.

 

[Fawn Lebowitz]

I can't believe some of the comments I've read stating if the suspension is upheld, that people will not watch the NFL again after Tom and Bill are gone? Way to support your team. That's the same mentality of the Manning fans who became Broncos fans when he was cut.

 

[deec77]

I had seen Blecker's amicus brief when it was first submitted and thought it was very powerful. He's very well known, especially in New York. There's no doubt the judges are familiar with him, and I thought his submission would be seen as persuasive. And it may have been because we have no clue how the judges will ultimately rule.

There was also a third-party brief, along with other filings throughout the course of the trial at the lower level and now at this level, by a woman named Michelle McGuirk. While well written, she has been dismissed as an eccentric. I haven't figured out what her deal is, who she is, whether she's having an attorney write her filings or whether she's written them herself. That are in perfect legalese, so she's either hired an attorney or she is an attorney, though I haven't been able to locate her in any databases. Anyway, her amicus would likely carry no weight.

So, I guess it really depends on who's writing as a friend of the court for it to be looked upon seriously.

This is pretty much all I could find

http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/2m...national-football-league-players-association/

http://www.law360.com/articles/745767/tom-brady-tells-2nd-circ-to-ignore-deflategate-intervenor

She does seem a bit whacky indeed

~Dee~

 

[PatsFanLisa]

I can't believe some of the comments I've read stating if the suspension is upheld, that people will not watch the NFL again after Tom and Bill are gone? Way to support your team. That's the same mentality of the Manning fans who became Broncos fans when he was cut.

So you don't get it, I see. It's not the team some of us won't watch. It's football in general. The direction that Goodell has taken the league, the rules, the lies, the lengths it will go to to bury some things and create crises out of others. The manipulation. The drama.

It's not the players. It's not the teams. It's the league and its chosen commissioner who has ruined the game and its "integrity".

And your analogy isn't correct.

 

[Fawn Lebowitz]

So you don't get it, I see. It's not the team some of us won't watch. It's football in general. The direction that Goodell has taken the league, the rules, the lies, the lengths it will go to to bury some things and create crises out of others. The manipulation. The drama.

It's not the players. It's not the teams. It's the league and it's chosen commissioner who has ruined the game and its "integrity".

And your analogy isn't correct.

I do get it. It's if things don't go my way, I'll take my ball and go home mentality. If the commish was screwing with my team I'd relish every victory, every title and thumb my nose at the league every chance I got. You guys act like this is the end of football. It's not and believe it or not, Brady is going to retire in a few years anyway. Were you going to quit being Patriots fans when he retires?

 

[king of kings]

I can't believe some of the comments I've read stating if the suspension is upheld, that people will not watch the NFL again after Tom and Bill are gone? Way to support your team. That's the same mentality of the Manning fans who became Broncos fans when he was cut.

That never happen for me . I'm a fan of the team. Players do come & go. I don't root for them once they leave .
Every reasonable thinking person. Knows this was a FU punishment & witch hunt by goodell. He made it perfectly clear in his appeals ruling. He went from at least general awareness. Too lying cheater who destroyed evidence.

 

[PatsFanLisa]

I do get it. It's if things don't go my way, I'll take my ball and go home mentality. If the commish was screwing with my team I'd relish every victory, every title and thumb my nose at the league every chance I got. You guys act like this is the end of football. It's not and believe it or not, Brady is going to retire in a few years anyway. Were you going to quit being Patriots fans when he retires?

Nope, you don't get it.

This is the most flagrant display of misplaced power that's ever occurred in the NFL. If you can't understand that after a year of blatant lies, incredible overpunishment, and pursuit of more power, then you just don't get it.

The NFL has now spent close to $20 mil on this lie that they've created, money that could be better spent on the $17 mil that they pulled from Boston University's research on CTE program. How can one support and justify spending that kind of money, and then stepping outside of the courthouse door and telling the media that this has dragged on long enough and has been hanging over the NFL's head, something that THEY'VE perpetuated, when they've taken back money that they promised for something that would benefit the players in the long term?

I will always support Brady. No, I wasn't going to quit football when he retires. But what this league has done to him, to the owner, to the team, is despicable and disgusting, what this league has done in terms of little things like letting Blandino, never an official, whisper in the ear of the head official on calls, what this league has done in terms of rule changes and doling out punishments...btw, Talib came right out and said he tried to rip whoever's head it was off purposefully in the AFCCG, and yet, no fine, no punishment, a blatant penalty...has absolutely left a nasty taste in my mouth. And it isn't anything new. This has been building up for a few years.

This sport is no longer a fair sport. These players go out there and kill themselves on that field, work year-long to stay in top shape, dedicate their lives to their craft, and then you have some sloppy suit like Kensil come along with his life-long grudge against a team or a player and destroy the reputation of a player with more integrity than 95% of the rest of the players in the league? You have a headquarters at 345 Park Ave. that is made up of former employees and/or players of one team when they should be unbiased and more varied, from all parts of the country. The scales are tilted in that office, and if you think this is paranoia or being a sore sport, you haven't been paying attention.

 

[bishbash]

Nope, you don't get it.

This is the most flagrant display of misplaced power that's ever occurred in the NFL. If you can't understand that after a year of blatant lies, incredible overpunishment, and pursuit of more power, then you just don't get it.

The NFL has now spent close to $20 mil on this lie that they've created, money that could be better spent on the $17 mil that they pulled from Boston University's research on CTE program. How can one support and justify spending that kind of money, and then stepping outside of the courthouse door and telling the media that this has dragged on long enough and has been hanging over the NFL's head, something that THEY'VE perpetuated, when they've taken back money that they promised for something that would benefit the players in the long term?

I will always support Brady. No, I wasn't going to quit football when he retires. But what this league has done to him, to the owner, to the team, is despicable and disgusting, what this league has done in terms of little things like letting Blandino, never an official, whisper in the ear of the head official on calls, what this league has done in terms of rule changes and doling out punishments...btw, Talib came right out and said he tried to rip whoever's head it was off purposefully in the AFCCG, and yet, no fine, no punishment, a blatant penalty...has absolutely left a nasty taste in my mouth. And it isn't anything new. This has been building up for a few years.

This sport is no longer a fair sport. These players go out there and kill themselves on that field, work year-long to stay in top shape, dedicate their lives to their craft, and then you have some sloppy suit like Kensil come along with his life-long grudge against a team or a player and destroy the reputation of a player with more integrity than 95% of the rest of the players in the league? You have a headquarters at 345 Park Ave. that is made up of former employees and/or players of one team when they should be unbiased and more varied, from all parts of the country. The scales are tilted in that office, and if you think this is paranoia or being a sore sport, you haven't been paying attention.

Well said, Lisa! And no, Fawn still doesn't get it.

 

[PatsFanLisa]

And just to take it a bit further, this is the league that makes it nearly unbearable for me to support it if it weren't for MY team. But...INTEGRITY.

Hall of Famer Nick Buoniconti has taken the offensive against the NFL's plan to deal with the thousands of concussion lawsuits filed by former players.

The 75-year-old former Miami Dolphins linebacker decried the NFL's $1 billion concussion settlement as "a fraud" and called out commissioner Roger Goodell and the league for not taking care of its own.

"The NFL has totally turned its back on the players," Buoniconti told the New York Daily News.

Buoniconti argued that the terms of the settlement prevent it from helping those who need it most: former players living with CTE (chronic traumatic encephalophy).

"The settlement in my mind is tantamount to basically not allowing anybody who's alive to recover anything," Buoniconti said. "When you think about it, clinically you can't diagnose CTE until you're dead, until you have an autopsy. This thing about not having any limit on the award — well, if you can't collect the award, what good is it?"

The two-time Super Bowl champion told the Daily News he estimates he suffered some 525,000 hits to the head during his 14-year career.

"I have cognitive issues. I have falling issues. I have balance issues," Buoniconti said. "If I sound like I'm upset, it's because I am."

"What can be done?" Buoniconti went on. "What could be done is for the NFL and Goodell and everybody to stop thinking about themselves and start thinking about the guys who made the league what it is today. And that's us."

They can't take care of the people who are lining their pockets with sickening amounts of money. They have to control how and when the money will be disseminated. But as long as Roger got another $34.1 mil this year, we good, baby...we good.

 

[deec77]

That brings up another question. Does the panel have to rule on each of Berman's points or can they simply overturn in summarily? Will we get a detailed report, like the one Berman put together, explaining their rationale?

Some interesting thoughts the day before the hearing by McCann. It's probably posted in here but it should be reread.

http://www.si.com/nfl/2016/03/01/deflategate-appeal-hearing-preview-tom-brady-roger-goodell

Crucially, Kessler will maintain that any one of the three defects highlighted by Judge Berman constituted sufficient grounds to vacate Goodell. Along those lines, Kessler might say or imply that even if the appellate judges disagree with Judge Berman on one or two of the defects, so long as they support at least one of the three, they should at least partially affirm Judge Berman’s order. A partial affirmance would likely mean that Judge Berman’s order to vacate Goodell’s arbitration award stands and that Brady’s suspension remains sidelined, although the scope of the holding—and impact on the NFL in future player disputes—would be narrowed.

So, yes all Brady needs is one of the 3 to affirm. So going back to what those questions mean. Perhaps they do agree on 1 and are deciding on the others to narrow the future disputes? Really hard to tell without the transcript.

Occasionally appellate judges signal which way they are leaning by the substance and tone of their questions. If a judge seems confused by an attorney or appears unconvinced by an answer, it suggests the judge perceives a defect in the attorney’s reasoning. Similarly indicative is when a judge repeatedly poses hypothetical questions to one of the attorneys. That might reveal an attempt by the judge to “trap” the attorney into admitting that there is a gap in his or her logic. A judge might also test an attorney’s familiarity of precedent cited in the written briefs and evaluate whether the attorney understands the implications of that citation as it relates to the appeal at hand. Appellate attorneys usually have a good read on whether they will win or lose based on a judge’s behavior during oral arguments.

That said, some appellate judges say little or nothing during hearings. Some rarely ask questions. Other appellate judges are talkative but not always in transparent ways. For instance, some judges like to play the role of “Devil’s Advocate” where they pose difficult questions to an attorney as a method of confirming in their minds that they do in fact agree with the attorney. There is thus some risk in reading too much into what takes place during Thursday’s hearing.

So again who knows but if it's a partial affirmation it would seem like perhaps a win win. The NFLPA can win and still lose, and while the NFL would lose in the sense of Brady's punishment, they still would win simply because Goodell would still retain most of his power.

~Dee~

---------- Post added at 12:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:00 PM ----------

And just to take it a bit further, this is the league that makes it nearly unbearable for me to support it if it weren't for MY team. But...INTEGRITY.



They can't take care of the people who are lining their pockets with sickening amounts of money. They have to control how and when the money will be disseminated. But as long as Roger got another $34.1 mil this year, we good, baby...we good.

Yep

~Dee~

 

[NFL-Know]

Nope, you don't get it.

This is the most flagrant display of misplaced power that's ever occurred in the NFL. If you can't understand that after a year of blatant lies, incredible overpunishment, and pursuit of more power, then you just don't get it.

The NFL has now spent close to $20 mil on this lie that they've created, money that could be better spent on the $17 mil that they pulled from Boston University's research on CTE program. How can one support and justify spending that kind of money, and then stepping outside of the courthouse door and telling the media that this has dragged on long enough and has been hanging over the NFL's head, something that THEY'VE perpetuated, when they've taken back money that they promised for something that would benefit the players in the long term?

I will always support Brady. No, I wasn't going to quit football when he retires. But what this league has done to him, to the owner, to the team, is despicable and disgusting, what this league has done in terms of little things like letting Blandino, never an official, whisper in the ear of the head official on calls, what this league has done in terms of rule changes and doling out punishments...btw, Talib came right out and said he tried to rip whoever's head it was off purposefully in the AFCCG, and yet, no fine, no punishment, a blatant penalty...has absolutely left a nasty taste in my mouth. And it isn't anything new. This has been building up for a few years.

This sport is no longer a fair sport. These players go out there and kill themselves on that field, work year-long to stay in top shape, dedicate their lives to their craft, and then you have some sloppy suit like Kensil come along with his life-long grudge against a team or a player and destroy the reputation of a player with more integrity than 95% of the rest of the players in the league? You have a headquarters at 345 Park Ave. that is made up of former employees and/or players of one team when they should be unbiased and more varied, from all parts of the country. The scales are tilted in that office, and if you think this is paranoia or being a sore sport, you haven't been paying attention.

EXTREMELY well said and accurate, Lisa. It is intuitively obvious that Fawn clearly does not get it OR is not capable to clearly apprehend and rationalize the facts of this case and how sleazy the NFL is about this fiasco.

 

[Big/Sky/Fly]

Well said, Lisa! And no, Fawn still doesn't get it.

and never will...