Mvp

[mooseontheloose]

So...yes.

When Adrian Peterson has a terrible passing game that automatically gives him the MVP award.

Despite the fact that Manning has shown that he's capable of putting up great numbers with a bottom-of-the-barrel running game.

Cool.

And Manning won MVP awards during those years. WTF are you babbling about?

Denver:

Rushing: 16th
Defensive PPG: 4th
Defensive YPG: 2nd

Minnesota:

Passing: 31st
Defensive PPG: 14th
Defensive YPG: 16th

No one gives a shit what Manning has proven in the past. In 2012, AP has significantly less to work with around him. His passing unit is FAR FAR worse than Manning's ground game. Moreover, Denver has one of the best performing defenses in the NFL while Minnesota's is about average (a fact 'analysts' seem to be ignoring).

So tell me, who has less to work with? AP or Manning?

I don't care what Manning did 4 years ago. He's won MVP awards in the past with abysmal rushing attacks, but that fact is both irrelevant to the current debate and it couldn't be further from what happened in 2012. He had a competent rushing attack and a stellar defense.

With all that talent around him Manning took an 8-8 playoff team to 13-3 while losing to every elite team he played against. Conversely, AP had the same shitty players around him as in 2011 and both the passing game and defense were awful to average. Regardless, he turned a 3-13 team into a 10-6 team with significantly less help around him.

Like someone else said - any legit, quality QB was going to succeed with the talent in Denver. Tim Tebow is a joke and managed to post a winning record and a playoff upset. ANY elite QB (ie. Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, etc.) was going to get 11-13 wins on that team. How many RBs in HISTORY could have done what AP did for the Vikings this year?

I can't believe anyone but Indy/Denver homers would argue for Peyton right now.

A P = M V P

 

[Providence Colt]

And Manning won MVP awards during those years. WTF are you babbling about?

Denver:

Rushing: 16th
Defensive PPG: 4th
Defensive YPG: 2nd

Minnesota:

Passing: 31st
Defensive PPG: 14th
Defensive YPG: 16th

No one gives a shit what Manning has proven in the past. In 2012, AP has significantly less to work with around him. His passing unit is FAR FAR worse than Manning's ground game. Moreover, Denver has one of the best performing defenses in the NFL while Minnesota's is about average (a fact 'analysts' seem to be ignoring).

So tell me, who has less to work with? AP or Manning?

I don't care what Manning did 4 years ago. He's won MVP awards in the past with abysmal rushing attacks, but that fact is both irrelevant to the current debate and it couldn't be further from what happened in 2012. He had a competent rushing attack and a stellar defense.

With all that talent around him Manning took an 8-8 playoff team to 13-3 while losing to every elite team he played against. Conversely, AP had the same shitty players around him as in 2011 and both the passing game and defense were awful to average. Regardless, he turned a 3-13 team into a 10-6 team with significantly less help around him.

Like someone else said - any legit, quality QB was going to succeed with the talent in Denver. Tim Tebow is a joke and managed to post a winning record and a playoff upset. ANY elite QB (ie. Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, etc.) was going to get 11-13 wins on that team. How many RBs in HISTORY could have done what AP did for the Vikings this year?

I can't believe anyone but Indy/Denver homers would argue for Peyton right now.

A P = M V P

Thank you for not following the argument. Although this a complete waste of my time, I will reiterate:

Fact is, Manning has carried a team with a bad running game before.

So to say "ZOMG AP HAS A TERRBLE PASSING GAME HE IS TEH MVP" doesn't really work, because it insinuates that Manning would not be able to carry a team with a bad RUNNING game. That is demonstrably false.

Fact remains, you want to penalize Manning for being on a better overall team than what AP has.

I don't think should happen.

And of course, that "analysis" or breakdown in the difference between the 2011/2012 Denver/Minnesota is pretty putrid.

 

[mooseontheloose]

Thank you for not following the argument. Although this a complete waste of my time, I will reiterate:

Fact is, Manning has carried a team with a bad running game before.

So to say "ZOMG AP HAS A TERRBLE PASSING GAME HE IS TEH MVP" doesn't really work, because it insinuates that Manning would not be able to carry a team with a bad RUNNING game. That is demonstrably false.

Fact remains, you want to penalize Manning for being on a better overall team than what AP has.

I don't think should happen.

And of course, that "analysis" or breakdown in the difference between the 2011/2012 Denver/Minnesota is pretty putrid.

1. No one cares if Manning has carried a bad running game. It doesn't imply anything, it only states that in 2012 AP had a terrible passing game and carried his shitty QB to the playoffs. Manning has done that in the past with awful running games, but that isn't relevant. IF he had done that this year then it would be relevant to the MVP debate. Fact is, in 2012, he had plenty of help.

2. The argument doesn't penalize Manning, it provides context with which to examine the value of each player. Imagine that.

Tell me, with how awful GB's O-line is, do you think Manning was more important to Denver's success than Rodgers was to Green Bay's? GB had a similar rushing attack and significantly worse defense.

The point was that no one did more with less than AP this year. And you still didn't address the core argument here - any elite QB was going to have success in Denver this year, but few if any experts picked the Vikings to do much of anything after their 2011 performance. AP helped the Vikings significantly overachieve despite the fact that the passing game and defense were par or under-performers. Manning, conversely, put up statistical numbers that are very similar to Brady and Rodgers on a team with plenty of talent around him. He also lost against every elite team he played this season.

But ya, keep trying.

 

[Providence Colt]

1. No one cares if Manning has carried a bad running game. It doesn't imply anything, it only states that in 2012 AP had a terrible passing game and carried his shitty QB to the playoffs. Manning has done that in the past with awful running games, but that isn't relevant. IF he had done that this year then it would be relevant to the MVP debate. Fact is, in 2012, he had plenty of help.

So Manning is automatically eliminated from contention because of that?

2. The argument doesn't penalize Manning, it provides context with which to examine the value of each player. Imagine that.

Funny, when I argue that Luck has to do more with less, that doesn't receive any mileage. Go figure.

Tell me, with how awful GB's O-line is, do you think Manning was more important to Denver's success than Rodgers was to Green Bay's? GB had a similar rushing attack and significantly worse defense.

Probably, seeing as the Broncos won more than the Packers did.

The point was that no one did more with less than AP this year. And you still didn't address the core argument here - any elite QB was going to have success in Denver this year, but few if any experts picked the Vikings to do much of anything after their 2011 performance. AP helped the Vikings significantly overachieve despite the fact that the passing game and defense were par or under-performers. Manning, conversely, put up statistical numbers that are very similar to Brady and Rodgers on a team with plenty of talent around him. He also lost against every elite team he played this season.

That's fine. But does "more with less" immediately give a guy the MVP award?

But ya, keep trying.

At the end of the day, I can certainly see the case for AP winning the MVP. He had a phenomenal season (arguably one of the best ever for a running back) and he did with not a lot of help. I get that, I really do. I just object to this being an open-and-shut case.

I know that arguing that Manning has a case for the MVP is a losing proposition on a Patriots board, but hey, I need something to distract myself from what I should be doing.

 

[PatsFan09]

The length that a Colts fan will go to defend a Denver QB is outright hysterical.

 

[mooseontheloose]

No one is saying Peyton doesn't have a case for MVP. If AP hadn't had the season he did, I'd see the MVP as a three-way race between Rodgers, Brady, and Manning. In that case, I'd expect Manning to win the award and his case would be as good or better than the other two.

Problem here is that AP exists and did have a ridiculous season to carry the 2011 Vikings (3-13) to the playoffs in 2012.

That doesn't mean Manning isn't a legit candidate and he should probably finish 2nd in voting. No one is disqualifying Manning from the discussion - you're so defensive of your old binky it borders on ridiculous. Manning deserves recognition for a great season, but AP's credentials for MVP are simply more compelling.

 

[mooseontheloose]

Double post.

 

[Hok]

If Peterson doesn't win, it will be because the writers already wrote their Manning stories and are too lazy to change them.

 

[Aloyouis]

If Peterson doesn't win, it will be because the writers have already bl**n Manning and are too lazy to wipe their faces.

I don't fix many, but I fixed your's for you.

 

[Providence Colt]

No one is saying Peyton doesn't have a case for MVP. If AP hadn't had the season he did, I'd see the MVP as a three-way race between Rodgers, Brady, and Manning. In that case, I'd expect Manning to win the award and his case would be as good or better than the other two.

Problem here is that AP exists and did have a ridiculous season to carry the 2011 Vikings (3-13) to the playoffs in 2012.

That doesn't mean Manning isn't a legit candidate and he should probably finish 2nd in voting. No one is disqualifying Manning from the discussion - you're so defensive of your old binky it borders on ridiculous. Manning deserves recognition for a great season, but AP's credentials for MVP are simply more compelling.

Correction: People are absolutely dismissing Manning as a candidate (maybe not you, but it's happening). I can show you or you can take my word for it.

 

[Wiluven]

I haven't seen anyone (that matters) dismiss Peyton except maybe Skip. In fact, I'm quite tired of the Peyton ball washing I hear day in day out in the media.
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[PatsFan09]

Correction: People are absolutely dismissing Manning as a candidate (maybe not you, but it's happening). I can show you or you can take my word for it.

Or maybe people are reacting to the overreaction of the usual national media whores performing oral sex on Manning.

Again, any solid QB would have led that Broncos team to at least a 11-5 record with that defense and with that good O-line and solid WR corp.

Brady led his team to a win over that same Broncos team (relatively easily), played a more difficult schedule, actually beat good teams, had just as good of stats, etc.

Rodgers did just as well as Manning, had a worse O-line, worse WR corp in terms of injuries, etc, and played a much more difficult schedule.


Yet you and other Peyton worshipers can't look beyond him.

 

[Aloyouis]

I haven't seen anyone (that matters) dismiss Peyton except maybe Skip. In fact, I'm quite tired of the Peyton ball washing I hear day in day out in the media.
Posted via Mobile Device

Skip doesn't matter. That said, you are spot on. I am SICK of hearing it. I can't listen to the NFL channel on Sirius for more than 10 mins before somebody gets themselves tent pitching over Pay-Me.

He walked into a great situation and guided it a 13-3 season. Hell, Cassel (MATT CASSEL!!) was able to take the Pats to 11-5. What could he have done with a defense like Denver's AND an off season and pre-season schedule built around him with the #1 QB preperation (and the team prep for HIM as well)?

Is Cassel = Pay-Me? No, but let's TRY to keep some perspective here. Manning CHOSE his team for a reason and it wasn't because they sucked. It was because they were a decent QB away from a great season. How anyone is "shocked" or in anyway even surprised that Denver had a 13-3 season is beyond me.

Folks: We have the RIGHT to judge the season with the benefit of 20/20 vision looking backwards. Quite frankly I am surprised that Pay-Me isn't held more responsible for the Bronco's inability to beat even one the few very good teams on their weak ass schedule. Certainly a QB having a MVP season would be expected to steal a game for you against the best competition. Wouldn't you???

 

[Wiluven]

It did pain me to say Skip mattered but I was more so pointing out the higher visibility sports analysts - not Joe Blow's sports page.

Good post btw.
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[Providence Colt]

The length that a Colts fan will go to defend a Denver QB is outright hysterical.

What's even more remarkable is a Patriots fan that can't acknowledge Manning is any good.

Amazing that this dime-a-dozen scrub has won 4 MVP's already.

 

[Providence Colt]

Or maybe people are reacting to the overreaction of the usual national media whores performing oral sex on Manning.

Again, any solid QB would have led that Broncos team to at least a 11-5 record with that defense and with that good O-line and solid WR corp.

Brady led his team to a win over that same Broncos team (relatively easily), played a more difficult schedule, actually beat good teams, had just as good of stats, etc.

Rodgers did just as well as Manning, had a worse O-line, worse WR corp in terms of injuries, etc, and played a much more difficult schedule.


Yet you and other Peyton worshipers can't look beyond him.

Skip doesn't matter. That said, you are spot on. I am SICK of hearing it. I can't listen to the NFL channel on Sirius for more than 10 mins before somebody gets themselves tent pitching over Pay-Me.

He walked into a great situation and guided it a 13-3 season. Hell, Cassel (MATT CASSEL!!) was able to take the Pats to 11-5. What could he have done with a defense like Denver's AND an off season and pre-season schedule built around him with the #1 QB preperation (and the team prep for HIM as well)?

Is Cassel = Pay-Me? No, but let's TRY to keep some perspective here. Manning CHOSE his team for a reason and it wasn't because they sucked. It was because they were a decent QB away from a great season. How anyone is "shocked" or in anyway even surprised that Denver had a 13-3 season is beyond me.

Folks: We have the RIGHT to judge the season with the benefit of 20/20 vision looking backwards. Quite frankly I am surprised that Pay-Me isn't held more responsible for the Bronco's inability to beat even one the few very good teams on their weak ass schedule. Certainly a QB having a MVP season would be expected to steal a game for you against the best competition. Wouldn't you???

You're right, let's forget about the division-winning Ravens. Broncos beat them on the road by 17.

You guys, well, didn't.

 

[12over4]

What's even more remarkable is a Patriots fan that can't acknowledge Manning is any good.

Amazing that this dime-a-dozen scrub has won 4 MVP's already.

I don't think anyone has said he's not any good. He's a great quarterback, no doubt, but his failures in the postseason multiplied by the fact that his deserving of a couple of those MVP's is questionable along with him inheriting a team that Tim Tebow led to a playoff victory has resulted in a lot of us questioning the constant blowing of him by the media on a constant basis.

 

[Providence Colt]

I don't think anyone has said he's not any good. He's a great quarterback, no doubt, but his failures in the postseason multiplied by the fact that his deserving of a couple of those MVP's is questionable along with him inheriting a team that Tim Tebow led to a playoff victory has resulted in a lot of us questioning the constant blowing of him by the media on a constant basis.

Tim Tebow pulled a bunch of games out of his ass. He managed an 8-8 team and should've lost plenty more of those games if not for what seemed to be divine intervention.

Manning is actually decisively beats these teams en route to 13-3.

These two Broncos teams are drastically different and it's because of the starting QB.

 

[HSanders]

I don't think anyone has said he's not any good. He's a great quarterback, no doubt, but his failures in the postseason multiplied by the fact that his deserving of a couple of those MVP's is questionable along with him inheriting a team that Tim Tebow led to a playoff victory has resulted in a lot of us questioning the constant blowing of him by the media on a constant basis.

My favorite thing ever is how they say he's the real OC, HC etc, yet he never gets criticism for a bad playcall.

 

[PatsFan09]

What's even more remarkable is a Patriots fan that can't acknowledge Manning is any good.

Amazing that this dime-a-dozen scrub has won 4 MVP's already.

Please show one post where anyone said that Peyton wasn't good.

Take your time. No one's holding their breath over you putting words in people's mouths.