Patriots have reached agreement with free-agent wide receiver Brandon Lloyd.

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midgar8784 said:
... he will be the first to tell you that
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No Middy, you will be.

Never mind YOUR wishing to credit anyone But Bill with our Superbowl wins,

Bill, year after year, has played through. some of the worst injury luck imaginable, and forgetting XXXVI, XXXVIII, AND XXXIX, he still rings up 13 wins a year because he has the best team from 22-53 every frigging year. For him to take instructions from your infinite wisdom, he'd have to Blow Up the model. Good luck convincing him to do that

Cheers, BostonTim
 
midgar8784 said:
It is not the way I think of it, its the way it is. There is more that had to do with those 5 than just BB, he will be the first to tell you that...you have to have the players to make whatever it is you put out there go....without them, your plan is pretty useless.
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No question you need talent.

But those players you are talking of are LONG gone and yet we are still rolling off 11 to 14 wins a year.

The last 2 SB's sting. Nothing will compare to the despair after '07.

But the guy's system is nothing short of genius.

Would I have liked Mario? Absolutely! But the cap number and the ripple effect likely caused thru the locker room would have been devastating. BB sets a number or value and all emotion is removed from the equation.

And it works quite well.

NFL-Know said:
lmao... Well if you check on previous FT playa movement, it is totally negotiated between the two teams, but minimum is one 1 draft choice and if a team has multiple #1 picks, it is ALWAYs the lowest or best that must be dealt for a FT playa.

I think you missed my point that even though Pat put the FT on Welker, Broncos know that this year's WR FT is 9.7M and you do not think Broncos will make a higher than 9.7M FT offer for this year????....in order to REALLY tax the Pats this year match and more alcohol into this Pats wound with a long term deal 3-5 years that Pats will NEVER use this much of their existing 17.8M cap to save Welker...rofl...

Great point, BB has led Pats into 5 SB appearances over his Pats HC tenor and now is 3-2. I will not bring up the anguish wrt the last 2 SB consecutive losses to the same team, but you are right on....

Let's keep stock piling draft picks instead of taking better 1st rd playas...... :thumb:
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This post is filled with too much fail.

First bold: Huh? You are correct the negotiation can take place after the tag, IF the tagging team is willing. Witness Cassel. Tagged and traded for a 2nd. But the Pats will in no way be willing to part with Wes and thus would stick to the guns of 2 1st rounders, no negotiating.

Second bold: I want no part of WW 5 years from now so I'd take the 2 #1's all day every day.

Third bold: I need to defer to some of the far more competent posters of this board(we should have a thread stickied dedicated to the trades down and the players summarily selected with the moved picks :thumb: )but off the top off my head I know we got Vince, Mayo, McCourty, Gronk, Hern and possibly T.Price by trading back and getting additional selections.

Take the win-loss record, the roster, and the SB appearances and I think he has a pretty good grip on how to get things done.
 
Dwight Schrute said:
No question you need talent.

But those players you are talking of are LONG gone and yet we are still rolling off 11 to 14 wins a year.

The last 2 SB's sting. Nothing will compare to the despair after '07.

But the guy's system is nothing short of genius.

Would I have liked Mario? Absolutely! But the cap number and the ripple effect likely caused thru the locker room would have been devastating. BB sets a number or value and all emotion is removed from the equation.

And it works quite well.



I agree with this completely, I am not in anyway putting BB down, just maybe saying he is human....I do however think that some of the player decisions that have been made lately are quite odd, and I hope that would can get some better players in here. BB makes a bad player decent, but I think at this point we need some good players too.
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You guys got a serious upgrade at WR with Blloyd. The guy can contort his body in mid-air to adjust to the ball like no other receiver in the NFL. Good signing.
 
Broncosfan said:
You guys got a serious upgrade at WR with Blloyd. The guy can contort his body in mid-air to adjust to the ball like no other receiver in the NFL. Good signing.
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That is good to hear. We really need another legit WR besides Welker. If we didn't have such good TEs, Brady wouldn't have had anyone to throw to last last year.

BTW, what's the early report on Manning? Does it look like he's really going to be ready for training camp?
 
dchester said:
That is good to hear. We really need another legit WR besides Welker. If we didn't have such good TEs, Brady wouldn't have had anyone to throw to last last.

BTW, what's the early report on Manning? Does it look like he's really going to be ready for training camp?
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They sacrificed the son of God and send him over to the Jets. He better be. >)
 
dchester said:
That is good to hear. We really need another legit WR besides Welker. If we didn't have such good TEs, Brady wouldn't have had anyone to throw to last last year.

BTW, what's the early report on Manning? Does it look like he's really going to be ready for training camp?
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I heard a report yesterday that Manning was throwing the ball with Decker and Thomas at some location already. Not sure how it looked or anything.
 
BostonTim said:
No Middy, you will be.

Never mind YOUR wishing to credit anyone But Bill with our Superbowl wins,

Bill, year after year, has played through. some of the worst injury luck imaginable, and forgetting XXXVI, XXXVIII, AND XXXIX, he still rings up 13 wins a year because he has the best team from 22-53 every frigging year. For him to take instructions from your infinite wisdom, he'd have to Blow Up the model. Good luck convincing him to do that

Cheers, BostonTim
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Right...saying there is more than just a coach, but actual players that helped win the superbowls is the same as saying Bill gets no credit for the team winning any superbowls.....I guess if you just make shit up, your little mind can wrap itself around anything.
 
Here's a cool clip you might have seen (or not). A few days before the Patriots deal was agreed go. Well spoken guy.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/SX8hqSF8fxw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
midgar8784 said:
Technically the core of the players on Defense were already in place in the years the pats "won" the superbowls BB has not done well replacing them as of yet.
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Sorry, but that’s pure nonsense and revisionist history. B.B. brought in a ton of players both offensively and defensively who without, we wouldn’t have seen a single Super Bowl victory. On defense alone:

Seymour
Ty Warren
Asante Samuel
Jarvis Green
Vince Wilfork
Eugene Wilson

Just to name a few key draft contributors to Super Bowl Victory’s. You clearly don’t have a very good memory if you also don’t remember Mike Vrabel, Rodney Harrison, Ted Washington, Anthony Pleasant, or any number defensive players he brought in here in 01. Sure there were a few pieces here, Law, Bruschi, but to say the core of defensive players was already here just makes you look foolish.
 
shasta said:
Sorry, but that’s pure nonsense and revisionist history. B.B. brought in a ton of players both offensively and defensively who without, we wouldn’t have seen a single Super Bowl victory. On defense alone:

Seymour
Ty Warren
Asante Samuel
Jarvis Green
Vince Wilfork
Eugene Wilson

Just to name a few key draft contributors to Super Bowl Victory’s. You clearly don’t have a very good memory if you also don’t remember Mike Vrabel, Rodney Harrison, Ted Washington, Anthony Pleasant, or any number defensive players he brought in here in 01. Sure there were a few pieces here, Law, Bruschi, but to say the core of defensive players was already here just makes you look foolish.
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Actually I have a real good memory thats why I remember, that seymour was drafted in 2001, the year we won the superbowl.....Warren was brought in 2003, Samual was drafted in 2003, Green was drafted in 2002, wilfork not until 2004, and wilson was also 2003.....so of the players you listed, only seymour was on the 2001 team and was basically on rotation with the players that were already in place, and if you really want me to think that those players had as much to do with superbowls as the ty laws, bruschi's, mcginnist of the world, well I cannot agree. So yes, the core defensive players were here....it does not make me look foolish, its an opinion that I reach based on what happened when those core players were here and what happened when those core players left...and as I said....BB has had a hard time replacing them.
 
The "BB inherited the defense" argument is pure bunk, plain and simple.

Willie Mac was an oft injured disappointment. Bruschi was a sparkplug without a position. Law was viewed as not living up to his talent. Only Milloy was a genuine stud heading into 2001. In all likelihood, neither Willie nor Bruschi would have ever elevated their play under a different coach.

But even if you want to pretend that those four (and Ted Johnson) would have been as good, the argument is still ridiculous.

The best defense in NE Patriots history is 2003.

Elite starters
Law
Harrison
Washington
Seymour

Near Elite
Vrabel
Bruschi

Solid starters
Poole
Hamilton
Johnson/Phifer
Willie Mac
Geno

Solid Role Players
Green
Samuel

4 out of 14 regular contributors and only 1 of the top 4 players is inheriting a defense? On what planet is that?

A similar exercise can be done with 2004, except Law missed most of the year so it was even less "borrowed".
 
Oswlek said:
The "BB inherited the defense" argument is pure bunk, plain and simple.

Willie Mac was an oft injured disappointment. Bruschi was a sparkplug without a position. Law was viewed as not living up to his talent. Only Milloy was a genuine stud heading into 2001. In all likelihood, neither Willie nor Bruschi would have ever elevated their play under a different coach.

But even if you want to pretend that those four (and Ted Johnson) would have been as good, the argument is still ridiculous.

The best defense in NE Patriots history is 2003.

Elite starters
Law
Harrison
Washington
Seymour

Near Elite
Vrabel
Bruschi

Solid starters
Poole
Hamilton
Johnson/Phifer
Willie Mac
Geno

Solid Role Players
Green
Samuel

4 out of 14 regular contributors and only 1 of the top 4 players is inheriting a defense? On what planet is that?

A similar exercise can be done with 2004, except Law missed most of the year so it was even less "borrowed".
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Well let me rephrase.....the defense that was here in 2003, had players that were mostly either on the team or taken from another team.....in other words, there were not a lot of drafted by BB players on that defense....and, since those players have departed...meaning the core of that 2003 defense, we have had a hard time replacing them....
 
midgar8784 said:
Well let me rephrase.....the defense that was here in 2003, had players that were mostly either on the team or taken from another team.....in other words, there were not a lot of drafted by BB players on that defense....and, since those players have departed...meaning the core of that 2003 defense, we have had a hard time replacing them....
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You're making the same mistake everyone else does. Since it takes 2-3 years for a player to develop in BB's system, you are making a current evaluation on data from 3-5 years ago. Kind of like we are really seeing the past when we look up at the stars. Well, by now it should be obvious how little defensively NE captured in the 2006-2008 drafts, which is what you are commenting on whether you realize it or not.

NE could have drafted Tedy, Rodney and Vrabes in the last three years, but based on their career arcs, we'd think they were wastes at this point.

By the same token, a core of Mayo, Spikes, McCourty, Nink, Chung, Love could be part of the next great defense.

BTW, it is entirely irrelevent whether those players were drafted or brought in via free agencey.
 
midgar8784 said:
Well let me rephrase.....the defense that was here in 2003, had players that were mostly either on the team or taken from another team.....in other words, there were not a lot of drafted by BB players on that defense....and, since those players have departed...meaning the core of that 2003 defense, we have had a hard time replacing them....
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Sorry but that just dosen't get it done. You said that the "CORE" payers on defense were already there when B.B. took over the team. They clearly were not, and it was moves by B.B. in both the draft, F.A. and trades that put thoses players in place for not only the Super Bowl wins, but he the entire time he's been here. There's no shame in admitting when your wrong.
 
Oswlek said:
You're making the same mistake everyone else does. Since it takes 2-3 years for a player to develop in BB's system, you are making a current evaluation on data from 3-5 years ago. Kind of like we are really seeing the past when we look up at the stars. Well, by now it should be obvious how little defensively NE captured in the 2006-2008 drafts, which is what you are commenting on whether you realize it or not.

That said, NE could have drafted Tedy, Rodney and Vrabes in the last three years, but based on their career arcs, we'd think they were wastes at this point.

By the same token, a core of Mayo, Spikes, McCourty, Nink, Chung, Love could be part of the next great defense.

BTW, it is entirely irrelevent whether those players were drafted or brought in via free agencey.
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Well I hope so....
 
midgar8784 said:
Well I hope so....
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Vrabes, Law, Harrison, Willie, Washington, Bruschi, Poole, Johnson and Phifer were all at least 7 year vets in 2003. It isn't completely out of the question that a few of the current youngsters will be better 3-4 years from now...
 
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