Patriots Offensive Line

[DropKickFlutie]

1. Mac Jones has been lights out in August when he actually has time to throw. His poor throws or INTs in training camp have been due to the crappy OLine play, which keeps breaking down and giving up sacks or QB pressures.

2. The Patriots are absolutely stacked with pass catchers across Meyers, Bourne, Agholor, Devonte Parker, Henry, and Jonnu Smith. The RB group is also stacked with Harris and Stevenson. It’s all about the OLine for the offense. The offense will live or die this year by the OLine play.

3. Now onto the OLine. It was absolutely the right decision to move Trent Brown back to left tackle. Scar the guru played Trent Brown at LT before Scar retired, and Brown was a durable, elite Superbowl-winning left tackle for the Pats in 2018.

4. Wynn needs to be traded. Take the 4th rd pick (or 3rd) and just do it. He’s injury prone, eats up almost 11M in cap space, and was mediocre in 2021. Wynn is simply too undersized to play tackle, it’s probably why he keeps getting hurt. There are plenty of other options who are cheaper which I will explain below. It’s not worth holding this waste of space player for a year in hopes of a comp pick later. You lose out on the opportunity cost to sign another OLineman with the money freed up.

5. Herron SUCKs at right tackle. This should have been apparent the first 6 games last year when the Pats started 2-4. Stop repeating known failures. Neither are any of the other backups on this roster. Stop tinkering with backups to play the vital RT position, which is clearly causing major OLine failures across the board. The run game and passing game fall apart due to dysfunctional OLine configuration.

6. Big Mike Onwenu should be the starting right tackle. All he’s ever done is play like a Top10 NFL Right Tackle for 2 years in a row now. Some moron assistant on the Patriots staff (not BB) keeps trying to force him at guard, when right tackle is a far more important and valuable position. Onwenu is a far better right tackle than Wynn is. Start Onwenu at right tackle and solve this problem for a decade.

7. The Patriots can then plug in a cheaper player to play right guard. Their mistake was letting Karras walk, or alternatively not finding a cheaper guard (there are plenty of cheap guards). Some obvious free agents right now are JC Tretter or Daryl Williams. Either of these good free agents can plug right in and play guard for the Patriots.

This Patriot offense will live or die this season with the play of the OLine. Move Mike Onwenu to right tackle, and plug in different players at right guard until the right combination gives Mac enough time to carve up defenses. Everything else on the offense is ready to roll so long as the OLine isn’t a gaping weak link.

In summary, the Pats OLine should be:
Brown-Strange-Andrews-TBD-Onwenu

 

[chevss454]

6. Big Mike Onwenu should be the starting right tackle. All he’s ever done is play like a Top10 NFL Right Tackle for 2 years in a row now. Some moron assistant on the Patriots staff (not BB) keeps trying to force him at guard, when right tackle is a far more important and valuable position. Onwenu is a far better right tackle than Wynn is. Start Onwenu at right tackle and solve this problem for a decade.

7. The Patriots can then plug in a cheaper player to play right guard. Their mistake was letting Karras walk, or alternatively not finding a cheaper guard (there are plenty of cheap guards). Some obvious free agents right now are JC Tretter or Daryl Williams. Either of these good free agents still out there can plug right in and play guard for the Patriots.

This Patriot offense will live or die this season with the play of the OLine. Move Mike Onwenu to right tackle, and plug in different players at right guard until the right combination gives Mac enough time to carve up defenses. Everything else on the offense is ready to roll so long as the OLine isn’t a gaping weak link.

In summary, the Pats OLine should be:
Brown-Strange-Andrews-TBD-Onwenu

The "TBD" RG has me concerned.
If we keep Wynn and he walks after the season we should get a comp pick but we get to use him this year. He's not bad he's just not the long term answer. He plays like a $10M RT should play when he's healthy.

 

[ParanoidPatriot]

Keep Wynn and move him to G. He has the body of a G, and if he accepts the position change, he could be good there. If he won't accept the position change, then trade him, and then trade for another gaurd.

 

[TommyD420]

Keep Wynn and move him to G. He has the body of a G, and if he accepts the position change, he could be good there. If he won't accept the position change, then trade him, and then trade for another gaurd.

Many people have been saying this since hes been drafted. I like this take.

 

[Flagg the Wanderer]

Many people have been saying this since hes been drafted. I like this take.

I'm one, though I had him at LG. Unlike some I could name (cough Herron cough) he doesn't seem to have a problem playing right handed, so it could work. But I'm concerned about him being a distraction.

As a whole, I don't disagree that Onwenu is our best RT in at least the medium term, unless Wynn can't get right in the head he's our best option at RT this year with Onwenu inside him. I don't think you kick Onwenu to OT unless you're sure you have a solution at RG. The internal OL positions don't demand the rare physical specimens you need at OT, but the pain if one of them is substandard is worse than if a tackle is. Penetration in the middle of the line blows up the passing game and threatens not just runs in the middle, but eliminates angles and cutback options to both sides. That allows defenses to overpursue without fear, and snowballing aggression. If the OT is unsteady, you can cheat a solid OG a bit to allow the OT to cheat to the outside, and/or have a RB/TE help, or even help with play selection and some formation tweaks. A truly substandard OG is tougher to cover, especially where our OC is, at least for the early chunk of the season, babysitting the rookie on his other side.

Our best outcome is to get Wynn on track mentally, and roll him out there as maybe a ~20th best RT in the league. We can have Onwenu cheat a touch to allow Wynn to get that half-step outside without fear. If he's a distraction, you've got to trade him, but I doubt you're getting a 3 or 4 with his salary and a contract that's expiring without a contract extension in place for the team picking him up. Maybe a 4 if we agree to keep half his salary or something like that - no one in the league can just blithely take on $10MM.

Unless he's a distraction and actively hurting the team, you keep him and play him at RT. Hell, ideally he plays a few games at LT and plays amazing, so his next team has to pay a ton for him and turns the comp pick into a 3.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Keep Wynn and move him to G. He has the body of a G, and if he accepts the position change, he could be good there. If he won't accept the position change, then trade him, and then trade for another gaurd.

Yes this makes sense too. So kick Wynn inside to RG and move Onwenu to RT. Would still see if there’s another free agent guard to add. Don’t think Wynn will be reliable enough wherever he’s slotted, so need options at the ready.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

As a whole, I don't disagree that Onwenu is our best RT in at least the medium term, unless Wynn can't get right in the head he's our best option at RT this year with Onwenu inside him. I don't think you kick Onwenu to OT unless you're sure you have a solution at RG. The internal OL positions don't demand the rare physical specimens you need at OT, but the pain if one of them is substandard is worse than if a tackle is. Penetration in the middle of the line blows up the passing game and threatens not just runs in the middle, but eliminates angles and cutback options to both sides. That allows defenses to overpursue without fear, and snowballing aggression. If the OT is unsteady, you can cheat a solid OG a bit to allow the OT to cheat to the outside, and/or have a RB/TE help, or even help with play selection and some formation tweaks. A truly substandard OG is tougher to cover, especially where our OC is, at least for the early chunk of the season, babysitting the rookie on his other side.

This paragraph makes sense conceptually. But then I’m reminded of last year where it was a total disaster trotting out Herron or Durant at RT the first 6 weeks and it absolutely did not work well. Also not a fan of making Jonnu or Henry a glorified blocker all the time to cover for a crappy RT. We all saw how the Pats went on a run last year when Karras solidified the interior and Karras isn’t even that good of a guard. It’s much easier to plug in a serviceable new guard than to play roulette at RT. With Onwenu at RG next to a crappy RT, this training camp shows this will not work. Mac is getting hit a lot and he won’t have enough time to operate effectively.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Unless he's a distraction and actively hurting the team, you keep him and play him at RT. Hell, ideally he plays a few games at LT and plays amazing, so his next team has to pay a ton for him and turns the comp pick into a 3.

Respectfully disagree. Don’t think it’s worth potentially screwing up the 2022 season in the hopes of a decent comp pick. If a team will give a 3rd now (Cowboys), would pull the trigger immediately and trade Wynn now. The Cowboys’ LT just tore his left knee. You then use that freed up money and quickly sign Tretter or Williams to play RG. Tretter+Onwenu or Daryl Williams+Onwenu would be significantly better than Onwenu+Wynn. Mac is seeing ghosts on occasion and throwing picks because of the shaky OLine, and you don’t want this to become bad muscle memory for your prized young QB.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

The "TBD" RG has me concerned.
If we keep Wynn and he walks after the season we should get a comp pick but we get to use him this year. He's not bad he's just not the long term answer. He plays like a $10M RT should play when he's healthy.

I hear you. If we lose games this year because of bad OLine play, then a future comp pick isn’t worth it especially if we’d get a similar pick now in a Wynn trade without waiting a year+. What worries me is the OLine does not work when Wynn is at RT. The Pats run game is getting blown up, completely stuffed with Wynn at RT. And there are too many passing sequences where Mac is sacked a third of the passing snaps. The OLine does not work with Wynn playing RT and healthy. I wish it were the situation where the OLine looks good and it’s just a matter of Wynn’s health. But even when Wynn is on the field, the running and passing games are not clicking. Would try out Onwenu at RT and see if Wynn (or many other players) can hold down RG.

 

[Flagg the Wanderer]

Respectfully disagree. Don’t think it’s worth potentially screwing up the 2022 season in the hopes of a decent comp pick. If a team will give a 3rd now (Cowboys), would pull the trigger immediately and trade Wynn now. The Cowboys’ LT just tore his left knee. You then use that freed up money and quickly sign Tretter or Williams to play RG. Tretter+Onwenu or Daryl Williams+Onwenu would be significantly better than Onwenu+Wynn. Mac is seeing ghosts on occasion and throwing picks because of the shaky OLine, and you don’t want this to become bad muscle memory for your prized young QB.

I doubt you'll have much money to spend from sending Wynn off. No one is going to (or has the ability to) take all the salary, and certainly won't give up anything significant for the privilege.

And why aren't Tretter and Williams signed, do you think? I know Tretter has a horrific ongoing knee problem. Why did Buffalo cut Williams in March? Are they a scheme fit? I don't think Cleveland, Buffalo, or Carolina has done much zone blocking.

Just seems weird that there'd be 32 teams being so stupid. Possible, just weird.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Tretter just retired this morning. Darn. He would have been a good fit. Daryl Williams is still available.


I see that Dallas has $13.4M in cap space. So they could take on Wynn. Fingers crossed that they talk themselves into it, they have a dire need at tackle now with their LT’s knee shredded yesterday.

 

[spacecrime]

If a team will give a 3rd now

It's weird to go on and on how bad a guy is and how he will potentially screw our entire season, and then think someone will give a third for him.

 

[Big/Sky/Fly]

Keep Wynn and move him to G. He has the body of a G, and if he accepts the position change, he could be good there. If he won't accept the position change, then trade him, and then trade for another gaurd.

Too late for that imo...

 

[Big/Sky/Fly]

I doubt you'll have much money to spend from sending Wynn off. No one is going to (or has the ability to) take all the salary, and certainly won't give up anything significant for the privilege.

And why aren't Tretter and Williams signed, do you think? I know Tretter has a horrific ongoing knee problem. Why did Buffalo cut Williams in March? Are they a scheme fit? I don't think Cleveland, Buffalo, or Carolina has done much zone blocking.

Just seems weird that there'd be 32 teams being so stupid. Possible, just weird.

Tretter is the player rep of the players union. I've read that teams don't want to sign those guys often. They usually stir the pot on their own teams, etc.

 

[Hawg73]

I'm one, though I had him at LG. Unlike some I could name (cough Herron cough) he doesn't seem to have a problem playing right handed, so it could work. But I'm concerned about him being a distraction.

As a whole, I don't disagree that Onwenu is our best RT in at least the medium term, unless Wynn can't get right in the head he's our best option at RT this year with Onwenu inside him. I don't think you kick Onwenu to OT unless you're sure you have a solution at RG. The internal OL positions don't demand the rare physical specimens you need at OT, but the pain if one of them is substandard is worse than if a tackle is. Penetration in the middle of the line blows up the passing game and threatens not just runs in the middle, but eliminates angles and cutback options to both sides. That allows defenses to overpursue without fear, and snowballing aggression. If the OT is unsteady, you can cheat a solid OG a bit to allow the OT to cheat to the outside, and/or have a RB/TE help, or even help with play selection and some formation tweaks. A truly substandard OG is tougher to cover, especially where our OC is, at least for the early chunk of the season, babysitting the rookie on his other side.

Our best outcome is to get Wynn on track mentally, and roll him out there as maybe a ~20th best RT in the league. We can have Onwenu cheat a touch to allow Wynn to get that half-step outside without fear. If he's a distraction, you've got to trade him, but I doubt you're getting a 3 or 4 with his salary and a contract that's expiring without a contract extension in place for the team picking him up. Maybe a 4 if we agree to keep half his salary or something like that - no one in the league can just blithely take on $10MM.

Unless he's a distraction and actively hurting the team, you keep him and play him at RT. Hell, ideally he plays a few games at LT and plays amazing, so his next team has to pay a ton for him and turns the comp pick into a 3.

In trying to figure Wynn out, one thing that occurred to me was that he played his best when Thuney was next to him, which might dovetail with your ideas. Maybe Karras and he had coordination issues and he missed his former partner. Some guys play about the same no matter where you line them up and some don't, but I'm still hopeful that Wynn can get his shit together and be dependable enough.

Also, he has played some snaps at Guard for us and my impression (based on little data) was that he had problems there, too. While it may seem like he could be slotted at RG with Onwenu at T, I'm not sure that he can flip sides and positions and get his confidence back.

I think the best solution overall is still to move him to a team that is a contender but is having injury issues at T (Cowboys, Raiders, Phins, Cardinals) and find a RG from the candidates presently on the roster to plug in there. Hambright, probably. He looks pretty comfortable at the position from what I've seen, although I'd like to see more reps against ones. He looks better than Karras did at a comparable point and he turned out solid last season when we really needed him to be.

 

[rivshark86]

The cowboys seem like a great trade partner for Wynn. Jerry wants to win now (pun intended) and may be willing to make a rash decision.
The raiders clearly need help, but why would Josh want to make that trade? He’s watched him play and develop.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

The cowboys seem like a great trade partner for Wynn. Jerry wants to win now (pun intended) and may be willing to make a rash decision.
The raiders clearly need help, but why would Josh want to make that trade? He’s watched him play and develop.

He’d take Wynn the same way he traded a pick away for Maroney in Denver.

But I’d approach Dallas first. Jerry wants to win now and will do a deal to salvage his season and OLine.

 

[Flagg the Wanderer]

From what I've read of camp, Wynn was out playing Cajuste and Herron at RT this far, even with all the problems. I don't think anyone would argue about Onwenu, but I don't think we have a plug and play solution at RG available.

All of this comes down to whether Dallas would deal for him, and what they would give up. I see them as the only likely trade partner. But the only way this is a net gain this year is if Wynn is actually causing problems.

 

[jayShomp]

4. Wynn needs to be traded. Take the 4th rd pick (or 3rd) and just do it. He’s injury prone, eats up almost 11M in cap space, and was mediocre in 2021. Wynn is simply too undersized to play tackle, it’s probably why he keeps getting hurt. There are plenty of other options who are cheaper which I will explain below. It’s not worth holding this waste of space player for a year in hopes of a comp pick later. You lose out on the opportunity cost to sign another OLineman with the money freed up.

A 3rd or 4th for a waste of space player? Not happening, 5th pick at best by a desperate team dealing with OL injuries and actually have the cap room this late in the pre-season. Trading him would be nothing more than a desperation salary dump and everyone team knows it.

 

[TommyD420]

A 3rd or 4th for a waste of space player? Not happening, 5th pick at best by a desperate team dealing with OL injuries and actually have the cap room this late in the pre-season. Trading him would be nothing more than a desperation salary dump and everyone team knows it.

Unless someone comes with a massive trade package, theres no need to trade him. Hes paid for, so theres literally no need to dump his salary, hes not on the books for next year.