Patriots Offensive Line

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DropKickFlutie

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1. The Cowboys are desperate. Jerry Jones was going around multiple shows last week talking about the playoffs. Tyron Smith going down is a major loss.

2. Correction on cap space, the Cowboys have 18M in cap space, not 13M. So are one of the few teams who can easily take on Wynn’s salary.

3. The Pats probably won’t even get a comp pick for Wynn if we hold onto him. They have a ton of cap space next year, and signing several new players will likely make them ineligible for any comp pick when Wynn leaves. Take a draft pick now.

4. Not sure why people are acting as if the OLine as currently constructed is fine. How many times do you need to see them stuffed 6 times in a row in the running game, or see Mac sacked on a third of his dropbacks, to want to fix it. I’m less concerned about the left side, I think Strange will be solid eventually. But the right side is fixable with placing Onwenu at RT. Then Hambright, Ferentz, heck even Cajuste could be tried at RG. There was another name I forgot if Tretter and Daryl Williams were not possible, and that’s Eric Fischer. He’s a good run blocker, too old to play tackle could kick inside to RG, last year he blocked for a 1800 yard rusher in Indy.
 

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Unless someone comes with a massive trade package, theres no need to trade him. Hes paid for, so theres literally no need to dump his salary, hes not on the books for next year.
They are currently over the cap. And you need cap room during the season to give yourself more options for trades and in season signings.

Edit: I was looking at older data, not over the cap but right up against it according to spotrac
 
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They are currently over the cap. And you need cap room during the season to give yourself more options for trades and in season signings.

Edit: I was looking at older data, not over the cap but right up against it according to spotrac
And there are still plenty of extensions and things they can do if they need to. I just dont think dumping Wynn's salary is a pressing need at the moment, considering everyone they already have signed next year, and how far they are under the cap.

You're not going to find better backup talent out there, even if he doesn't start, and if you do need that room at some point, you can trade him then. I dont think firesale-ing him at this point makes much sense, and unless someone tosses a premium pick out there, you may as well stand pat.
 

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1. The Cowboys are desperate. Jerry Jones was going around multiple shows last week talking about the playoffs. Tyron Smith going down is a major loss.

2. Correction on cap space, the Cowboys have 18M in cap space, not 13M. So are one of the few teams who can easily take on Wynn’s salary.

3. The Pats probably won’t even get a comp pick for Wynn if we hold onto him. They have a ton of cap space next year, and signing several new players will likely make them ineligible for any comp pick when Wynn leaves. Take a draft pick now.

4. Not sure why people are acting as if the OLine as currently constructed is fine. How many times do you need to see them stuffed 6 times in a row in the running game, or see Mac sacked on a third of his dropbacks, to want to fix it. I’m less concerned about the left side, I think Strange will be solid eventually. But the right side is fixable with placing Onwenu at RT. Then Hambright, Ferentz, heck even Cajuste could be tried at RG. There was another name I forgot if Tretter and Daryl Williams were not possible, and that’s Eric Fischer. He’s a good run blocker, too old to play tackle could kick inside to RG, last year he blocked for a 1800 yard rusher in Indy.
Well I don't think any of us have all the information right now to say one way or the other. The Olinw wasn't awful last season by any means, but what I haven't seen discussed much is why they seem to be having trouble with the new zone blocking scheme. It may simply be that these players aren't suited to that system.
 

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Well I don't think any of us have all the information right now to say one way or the other. The Olinw wasn't awful last season by any means, but what I haven't seen discussed much is why they seem to be having trouble with the new zone blocking scheme. It may simply be that these players aren't suited to that system.
It's really hard to learn, takes a ton of reps to get the timing and coordination right, and you can't really practice it because it's to risky to your front 7 to be taking crack back and chop blocks.
 
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DropKickFlutie

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Tonight was more validation that they need to redo the OLine.

Mac 2 sacks and 4 other QB hits on only 13 pass attempts. The OLine is going to permanently ruin a promising young QB.

.
 
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Tonight was more validation that they need to redo the OLine.

Mac 2 sacks and 4 other QB hits on only 13 pass attempts. The OLine is going to permanently ruin a promising young QB.

.

I'm not sure if they need to redo the entire OL, but they could probably use a new coach. If I remember correctly, things started going downhill after Cole Popovich left the staff for refusing a COVID vaccination during the 2020 season. They opened the beginning of 2020 very strong at OL, they looked as good as I had seen them in awhile, and following Popovich's departure began declining and haven't recovered since. They look sloppy with their technique, disjointed, disconnected, not particularly accountable. I really doubt Scar wants to come back to full-time coaching, but BB needs to be on the phone with him getting whatever he can get, and working lines with OL coaches elsewhere (perhaps with Scar's input). The unit under Billy Yates hasn't done anything to inspire confidence, and even if Patricia is a better OL coach than Yates (which we do not know at this point), he's wearing the primary OC hat, so I doubt he can be counted on as a full-time OL coach in lieu of Yates.

I also don't love Joe Judge. I know I've said this multiple times before about the guy and at this point I probably sound toxic, but I'll repeat myself because he's the guy I'm the most concerned about from a coaching staff perspective. I just get the sense he's a blowhard, asshat, poor communicator. I know this is the NFL and players shouldn't expect to be coddled, but constant scolding and barking is equally ineffective, too. Good coaches know when to push certain buttons at certain times, when to scold, when to bark, when to uplift, when to crack a joke, levity, seriousness, etc; depends on the player(s) in question, the situation in the game/season, so forth. I say all of this from afar, so I'm essentially just speculating based on my intuition, but I really don't care for Judge. I don't trust him coaching Mac, either; they need to find a bonafide QBs' coach who can repeatedly instill good habits in Mac & Zappe on a daily basis. Judge might be a good guy to knock out basic film prep tasks, padding, gathering basic available data/info to share with superiors (who then analyze the info), but I don't think he's someone with the refinement, polish, and depth to be intimately involved with the coaching of the offense/QBs, or involved with any particularly prominent coaching role on a high level football team that involves critical analysis.

Patricia, while I have hesitations about him for various reasons, I have more faith in as someone who's actually competent and capable of doing his job at a relatively high level. I also get the sense he's a bit of an asshat, and maybe not the best communicator either, but despite those personality traits I get the vibe that he's relatively decent at his job, which is obviously a good thing.

We'll see where things stand after the next 17+ games, but suffice to say that at this point in the process of looking forward to 2023, OL is clearly the biggest area needing to be addressed (fortunately there will be ample cap space to address it, if it's still a need 4-6 months from now).
 
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They are currently over the cap. And you need cap room during the season to give yourself more options for trades and in season signings.

Edit: I was looking at older data, not over the cap but right up against it according to spotrac

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chevss454

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I'm not sure if they need to redo the entire OL, but they could probably use a new coach. If I remember correctly, things started going downhill after Cole Popovich left the staff for refusing a COVID vaccination during the 2020 season. They opened the beginning of 2020 very strong at OL, they looked as good as I had seen them in awhile, and following Popovich's departure began declining and haven't recovered since. They look sloppy with their technique, disjointed, disconnected, not particularly accountable. I really doubt Scar wants to come back to full-time coaching, but BB needs to be on the phone with him getting whatever he can get, and working lines with OL coaches elsewhere (perhaps with Scar's input). The unit under Billy Yates hasn't done anything to inspire confidence, and even if Patricia is a better OL coach than Yates (which we do not know at this point), he's wearing the primary OC hat, so I doubt he can be counted on as a full-time OL coach in lieu of Yates.

I also don't love Joe Judge. I know I've said this multiple times before about the guy and at this point I probably sound toxic, but I'll repeat myself because he's the guy I'm the most concerned about from a coaching staff perspective. I just get the sense he's a blowhard, asshat, poor communicator. I know this is the NFL and players shouldn't expect to be coddled, but constant scolding and barking is equally ineffective, too. Good coaches know when to push certain buttons at certain times, when to scold, when to bark, when to uplift, when to crack a joke, levity, seriousness, etc; depends on the player(s) in question, the situation in the game/season, so forth. I say all of this from afar, so I'm essentially just speculating based on my intuition, but I really don't care for Judge. I don't trust him coaching Mac, either; they need to find a bonafide QBs' coach who can repeatedly instill good habits in Mac & Zappe on a daily basis. Judge might be a good guy to knock out basic film prep tasks, padding, gathering basic available data/info to share with superiors (who then analyze the info), but I don't think he's someone with the refinement, polish, and depth to be intimately involved with the coaching of the offense/QBs, or involved with any particularly prominent role coaching role on a high level football team that involves much critical analysis.

Patricia, while I have hesitations about him for various reasons, I have more faith in as someone who's actually competent and capable of doing his job at a relatively high level. I also get the sense he's a bit of an asshat, and maybe not the best communicator either, but despite those personality traits I get the vibe that he's relatively decent at his job, which is obviously a good thing.

We'll see where things stand after the next 17+ games, but suffice to say that at this point in the process of looking forward to 2023, OL is clearly the biggest area needing to be addressed (fortunately there will be ample cap space to address it, if it's still a need 4-6 months from now).

I don't have the expertise to know exactly what's wrong with our OL but I do know enough to know the OL is currently our weakest link. It's like Scar was never there at this point.
I'll gladly leave the OL evaluation to those like Hawg who know more about the in's and out's of OL play. Nevertheless, I'll take a stab based on what I've seen.

Outside Zone may be a square peg-round hole kind of thing for this personnel. Onwenu and Brown may not have the athleticism it takes. Strange is just learning it. Andrews and Wynn should be able to master it with their athleticism but every time the Pats run to right with outside zone plays Wynn isn't getting outside quickly enough and there's a log jam for the inside blockers and no crease for the RB to scoot through. The concept isn't difficult but the execution of it is full of twists and turns not apparent to the average fan. When the D always has at least 1 more man than the OL, execution has to be perfect and we're not close to perfect. The first time we ran OZ last night 2 Raiders LBs slipped through untouched and that is a death knell for OZ plays. The 2nd time --> 1 LB got through untouched. Plus, it's too easy to defend; all the DL has to do is run outside right along with the blockers. We did it in our SB with the Rams for an EZ win.

I'm hoping last night is the last we see of OZ this year. If that's our bread and butter we're going to starve to death.
With public practices out of the way it's time for BB to focus on what we do well behind closed doors for the next 2 weeks --> power runs, PA passes and clean drop backs.
 
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DropKickFlutie

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I'm not sure if they need to redo the entire OL, but they could probably use a new coach. If I remember correctly, things started going downhill after Cole Popovich left the staff for refusing a COVID vaccination during the 2020 season. They opened the beginning of 2020 very strong at OL, they looked as good as I had seen them in awhile, and following Popovich's departure began declining and haven't recovered since. They look sloppy with their technique, disjointed, disconnected, not particularly accountable. I really doubt Scar wants to come back to full-time coaching, but BB needs to be on the phone with him getting whatever he can get, and working lines with OL coaches elsewhere (perhaps with Scar's input). The unit under Billy Yates hasn't done anything to inspire confidence, and even if Patricia is a better OL coach than Yates (which we do not know at this point), he's wearing the primary OC hat, so I doubt he can be counted on as a full-time OL coach in lieu of Yates.

I also don't love Joe Judge. I know I've said this multiple times before about the guy and at this point I probably sound toxic, but I'll repeat myself because he's the guy I'm the most concerned about from a coaching staff perspective. I just get the sense he's a blowhard, asshat, poor communicator. I know this is the NFL and players shouldn't expect to be coddled, but constant scolding and barking is equally ineffective, too. Good coaches know when to push certain buttons at certain times, when to scold, when to bark, when to uplift, when to crack a joke, levity, seriousness, etc; depends on the player(s) in question, the situation in the game/season, so forth. I say all of this from afar, so I'm essentially just speculating based on my intuition, but I really don't care for Judge. I don't trust him coaching Mac, either; they need to find a bonafide QBs' coach who can repeatedly instill good habits in Mac & Zappe on a daily basis. Judge might be a good guy to knock out basic film prep tasks, padding, gathering basic available data/info to share with superiors (who then analyze the info), but I don't think he's someone with the refinement, polish, and depth to be intimately involved with the coaching of the offense/QBs, or involved with any particularly prominent coaching role on a high level football team that involves critical analysis.

Patricia, while I have hesitations about him for various reasons, I have more faith in as someone who's actually competent and capable of doing his job at a relatively high level. I also get the sense he's a bit of an asshat, and maybe not the best communicator either, but despite those personality traits I get the vibe that he's relatively decent at his job, which is obviously a good thing.

We'll see where things stand after the next 17+ games, but suffice to say that at this point in the process of looking forward to 2023, OL is clearly the biggest area needing to be addressed (fortunately there will be ample cap space to address it, if it's still a need 4-6 months from now).

I’m all for throwing $ at Popovich. The OLine is a mess without Scar or Popovich
 
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I don't have the expertise to know exactly what's wrong with our OL but I do know enough to know the OL is currently our weakest link. It's like Scar was never there at this point.
I'll gladly leave the OL evaluation to those like Hawg who know more about the in's and out's of OL play. Nevertheless, I'll take a stab based on what I've seen.

Outside Zone may be a square peg-round hole kind of thing for this personnel. Onwenu and Brown may not have the athleticism it takes. Strange is just learning it. Andrews and Wynn should be able to master it with their athleticism but every time the Pats run to right with outside zone plays Wynn isn't getting outside quickly enough and there's a log jam for the inside blockers and no crease for the RB to scoot through. The concept isn't difficult but the execution of it is full of twists and turns not apparent to the average fan. When the D always has at least 1 more man than the OL, execution has to be perfect and we're not close to perfect. The first time we ran OZ last night 2 Raiders LBs slipped through untouched and that is a death knell for OZ plays. The 2nd time --> 1 LB got through untouched. Plus, it's too easy to defend; all the DL has to do is run outside right along with the blockers. We did it in our SB with the Rams for an EZ win.

I'm hoping last night is the last we see of OZ this year. If that's our bread and butter we're going to starve to death.
With public practices out of the way it's time for BB to focus on what we do well behind closed doors for the next 2 weeks --> power runs, PA passes and clean drop backs.

Agree. The OLine is more suited for power runs. I wonder if someone has charted the outside zone runs, it might be something like negative 20 yards in 20 attempts…
 
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First of all, good for Lazar for making the jump to Patriots.com. He’s been consistently putting in hard work for a couple years and it’s well earned.

Secondly, here’s an article noting the Pats have tried zone plays 45% of the time this preseason compared to 21% last year. What’s concerning for me is even if they go to only power gap runs, the pass blocking still looks terrible particularly from the RT spot.

 
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Alex Leatherwood could be a project...not saying that he's very good, but, he was drafted in the 1st and he played for Saban.

I am all aboard Leatherwood as a cheap acquisition and insurance if Trent gets hurt. Am thrilled the Raiders cut Leatherwood, Bricillo continues to be a trainwreck as an OLine coach.

Leatherwood is a nimble zone LT. This is what he did in Alabama. He’s always been a good pass blocker, not a great run blocker, and criticized for not being nasty enough. It’s because he’s a left tackle. The dummy Raiders kept forcing him at RT because he’s a big guy. Only a dumb team like the Raiders would take a guy who won the best college lineman award and then completely change his position. It’s like asking a slot receiver to run deep posts and wondering why it fails. It’s similar to how Trent Brown kept getting miscast at RT instead of LT (elite pass blocker, mediocre run blocker, repeatedly put at RT just bc he’s huge). Bring in Leatherwood but as a backup LT. Say bye to Herron and Durant. Move Onwenu to RT.
 
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I am all aboard Leatherwood as a cheap acquisition and insurance if Trent gets hurt. Leatherwood is a nimble zone LT. This is what he did in Alamaba. He’s always been a good pass blocker, not a great run blocker, and criticized for not being nasty enough. It’s because he’s a left tackle. The dummy Raiders kept forcing him at RT because he’s a big guy. It’s a bit like how Trent Brown kept getting miscast (elite pass blocker, mediocre run blocker, repeatedly put at RT just bc he’s huge). Bring in Leatherwood but as a backup LT. Say bye to Herron and Durant. Move Onwenu to RT.
Have BB talk to Saban if he's worth being a project.
 
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