Pole: Manning receivers

[Oswlek]

"Denver's receivers are better than anything Manning ever had in Indy."

That statement, said by my friend, is what precipitated this entire conversation.

I have to admit that I disagree. As others have stated Harrison/Wayne/Stokley/Clark/James is about as completely a corps as anyone has ever played with, at any point in the league.

That said, over the course of the discussion, I was surprised to find out how few years all of these guys played together. Only in 2004 and 2005 was that entire group together. '03 was Wayne's rookie season and he wasn't the same guy. Stokely and James were gone by '06. Because of this I ended up agreeing that Indy's average season was a bit top heavy, outside of those two seasons.

However, what I can't agree with is the idea that Denver's group is better. My buddy's evidence to this point is how many people on Denver have respectable receiving numbers, but I think he is misinterpreting the information.

IMO, the reason for the appearance of stellar depth is two-fold.

1) Denver's OL is better than what he had in Indy, giving him the time to find more reads.

2) Manning himself isn't quite as capable of hitting the small spots, so he forces fewer passes, settling for whoever is open.

I just look at a guy like Jacob Tamme, who is Denver's fourth leading receiver, and I can't see him as being markedly better than whoever the 2nd TE was on Indy. The reason why he has more yardage that Indy's typical 4th receiver is style of play, not caliber of talent.

Carry on...

Edit: I suppose this may come off contradictory to what I wrote in the MVP debate, but it really isn't. Denver's weapons are really good, not living up to perhaps the greatest receiving corps in the history of the game ain't exactly an indictment. And Manning had a fantastic year, he just didn't have a markedly more impressive year than any of the top tier QBs, and definitely wasn't as impressive as AP, who might've had the most impressive RB performance we'll ever witness.

 

[midgar8784]

"Denver's receivers are better than anything Manning ever had in Indy."

That statement, said by my friend, is what precipitated this entire conversation.

I have to admit that I disagree. As others have stated Harrison/Wayne/Stokley/Clark/James is about as completely a corps as anyone has ever played with, at any point in the league.

That said, over the course of the discussion, I was surprised to find out how few years all of these guys played together. Only in 2004 and 2005 was that entire group together. '03 was Wayne's rookie season and he wasn't the same guy. Stokely and James were gone by '06. Because of this I ended up agreeing that Indy's average season was a bit top heavy, outside of those two seasons.

However, what I can't agree with is the idea that Denver's group is better. My buddy's evidence to this point is how many people on Denver have respectable receiving numbers, but I think he is misinterpreting the information.

IMO, the reason for the appearance of stellar depth is two-fold.

1) Denver's OL is better than what he had in Indy, giving him the time to find more reads.

2) Manning himself isn't quite as capable of hitting the small spots, so he forces fewer passes, settling for whoever is open.

I just look at a guy like Jacob Tamme, who is Denver's fourth leading receiver, and I can't see him as being markedly better than whoever the 2nd TE was on Indy. The reason why he has more yardage that Indy's typical 4th receiver is style of play, not caliber of talent.

Carry on...

You nailed this, funny stat I had to look up. We have heard that Brady struggles going down the field...check this out...this year. Brady had 170 passes over 11 yards in the air in those he had 12 td's 2 ints...manning had 189 passes over 11 yards in the air he had 15 td's 9 ints....9 of his 11 ints were on passes over 11 yards in the air.

 

[Providence Colt]

Which certainly would speak to Edgerrin James' ability, one would think.

And to the "complete teamers" who think Manning has "never had a defense like this before":

2002: 7th in pts allowed, 8th in yds allowed
2005: 2nd in pts allowed, 11th in yds allowed
2007: 1st in pts allowed, 3rd in yds allowed
2008: 7th in pts allowed, 11th in yds allowed
2009: 8th in pts allowed, 18th in yds allowed

For some reference, the Patriots haven't had a team approaching both those numbers since the 2009 season.

Don't tell me he never had a defense in Indy, and for the love of god, don't tell me Eric Decker is better than Reggie Wayne is right now never mind 6 years ago.

On the offensive side, 2004 was a much better team weapons all included. Brandon Stokley (in his late 20's, not 36 years old like he is now), Reggie Wayne (this was his breakout year), Marvin Harrison (he was only 32), Marcus Pollard (this was his last season with the Colts), Dallas Clark (this was only his 2nd season, but his numbers were only not there just because there was only one football), not to mention Edgerrin James, and an offensive line that's on par with what Denver has now.

Then again, that defense was godawful, so that wasn't the most complete team.

The 2007 team would arguably be the most complete team, except the defense fell apart like a house of cards once Freeney went down. They allowed a game-winning drive to Billy ****ing Volek and got absolutely ripped to shreds. While Manning did have a defense during that regular season, the 2007 unit provided arguably the worst defensive effort in the postseason as any Colts team during the Manning-era.

 

[midgar8784]

On the offensive side, 2004 was a much better team weapons all included. Brandon Stokley (in his late 20's, not 36 years old like he is now), Reggie Wayne (this was his breakout year), Marvin Harrison (he was only 32), Marcus Pollard (this was his last season with the Colts), Dallas Clark (this was only his 2nd season, but his numbers were only not there just because there was only one football), not to mention Edgerrin James, and an offensive line that's on par with what Denver has now.

Then again, that defense was godawful, so that wasn't the most complete team.

The 2007 team would arguably be the most complete team, except the defense fell apart like a house of cards once Freeney went down. They allowed a game-winning drive to Billy ****ing Volek and got absolutely ripped to shreds. While Manning did have a defense during that regular season, the 2007 unit provided arguably the worst defensive effort in the postseason as any Colts team during the Manning-era.

There was a point in that game where Manning needed a first down and there is no comeback, he had 4 attempts and failed to make 3 yards, so it can trace back to his play too. 2004 the defense actually played find in the playoffs, but when you only score 3 points on offense in the losing game, not sure many defenses could overcome that.

 

[Providence Colt]

There was a point in that game where Manning needed a first down and there is no comeback, he had 4 attempts and failed to make 3 yards, so it can trace back to his play too. 2004 the defense actually played find in the playoffs, but when you only score 3 points on offense in the losing game, not sure many defenses could overcome that.

Manning threw for 400 yards in that game and lost.

Has that ever happened before in a playoff game?

 

[TommyD420]

<table><tbody><tr class="loop-even"><td class="col-jersey" rel="81">
81 </td> <td class="col-name"> Dreessen, Joel </td> <td class="col-position">TE</td> <td class="col-height">6-4</td> <td class="col-weight">245</td><td class="col-bd">30</td><td class="col-exp" rel="07"> 7 </td> <td class="col-college">Colorado State</td> </tr><tr class="loop-odd"> <td class="col-jersey" rel="85"> 85 </td> <td class="col-name"> Green, Virgil </td> <td class="col-position">TE</td> <td class="col-height">6-5</td> <td class="col-weight">252</td><td class="col-bd">24</td><td class="col-exp" rel="02"> 2 </td> <td class="col-college">Nevada</td> </tr><tr class="loop-even"> <td class="col-jersey" rel="84"> 84 </td> <td class="col-name"> Tamme, Jacob </td> <td class="col-position">TE</td> <td class="col-height">6-3</td> <td class="col-weight">236</td><td class="col-bd">27</td><td class="col-exp" rel="05"> 5 </td> <td class="col-college">Kentucky</td> </tr><tr class="loop-odd"> <td class="col-jersey" rel="80"> 80 </td> <td class="col-name"> Thomas, Julius </td> <td class="col-position">TE</td> <td class="col-height">6-5</td> <td class="col-weight">255</td><td class="col-bd">24</td><td class="col-exp" rel="02"> 2 </td> <td class="col-college">Portland State</td> </tr><tr class="loop-even"> <td class="col-jersey" rel="55">
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</td> </tr><tr class="loop-even"> <td class="col-jersey" rel="17"> 17 </td> <td class="col-name"> Caldwell, Andre </td> <td class="col-position">WR</td> <td class="col-height">6-0</td> <td class="col-weight">190</td><td class="col-bd">27</td><td class="col-exp" rel="05"> 5 </td> <td class="col-college">Florida</td> </tr><tr class="loop-odd"> <td class="col-jersey" rel="87"> 87 </td> <td class="col-name"> Decker, Eric </td> <td class="col-position">WR</td> <td class="col-height">6-3</td> <td class="col-weight">218</td><td class="col-bd">25</td><td class="col-exp" rel="03"> 3 </td> <td class="col-college">Minnesota</td> </tr><tr class="loop-even"> <td class="col-jersey" rel="11"> 11 </td> <td class="col-name"> Holliday, Trindon </td> <td class="col-position">WR</td> <td class="col-height">5-5</td> <td class="col-weight">170</td><td class="col-bd">26</td><td class="col-exp" rel="02"> 2 </td> <td class="col-college">LSU</td> </tr><tr class="loop-odd"> <td class="col-jersey" rel="14"> 14 </td> <td class="col-name"> Stokley, Brandon </td> <td class="col-position">WR</td> <td class="col-height">6-0</td> <td class="col-weight">194</td><td class="col-bd">36</td><td class="col-exp" rel="14"> 14 </td> <td class="col-college">Southwestern Louisiana</td> </tr><tr class="loop-even"> <td class="col-jersey" rel="88"> 88 </td> <td class="col-name"> Thomas, Demaryius </td> <td class="col-position">WR</td> <td class="col-height">6-3</td> <td class="col-weight">229</td><td class="col-bd">25</td><td class="col-exp" rel="03"> 3 </td> <td class="col-college">Georgia Tech</td> </tr><tr class="loop-odd"> <td class="col-jersey" rel="12"> 12 </td> <td class="col-name"> Willis, Matthew </td> <td class="col-position">WR</td> <td class="col-height">6-0</td> <td class="col-weight">190</td><td class="col-bd">28</td><td class="col-exp" rel="05"> 5 </td> <td class="col-college">UCLA</td> </tr></tbody> </table>





I'd have to say PManning's weapons in Denver are pretty awesome. Thomas and Decker are big, tall and able to get open. PM never had a WR combination like that in Indy. Combine their passing game with their running game with Willis McGahee and Moreno contributing another 1250 yds, and PM must be in QB heaven in mile high country.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/clt/2004.htm

Three 1000+ receivers (two of which are lock hall of famers), a 1500+ yd rusher who had nearly 500 yds receiving (another virtual lock), and a QB with a 121.1 rating and was sacked just 13 times.

Oh yeah, this was pre-"emphasis" as well. It's not really a contest, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[midgar8784]

Manning threw for 400 yards in that game and lost.

Has that ever happened before in a playoff game?

Yeah Kelly Holcomb, I think I sense an issue here....the one year manning stopped throwing because he was sucking and started handing the ball off, behold they won the superbowl...go figure.

 

[Oswlek]

Manning threw for 400 yards in that game and lost.

Has that ever happened before in a playoff game?

Many times. Losing teams often times rack up gaudy passing stats.

 

[Providence Colt]

Yeah Kelly Holcomb, I think I sense an issue here....the one year manning stopped throwing because he was sucking and started handing the ball off, behold they won the superbowl...go figure.

The Colts RB's fan for 44 yards on 18 carries (2.4 yards per carry average) in that game.

Try again.

 

[Providence Colt]

Many times. Losing teams often times rack up gaudy passing stats.

This wasn't a losing team putting up gaudy statistics against a team in prevent defense.

 

[Oswlek]

This wasn't a losing team putting up gaudy statistics against a team in prevent defense.

What is your point? Indy had three long drives ending in turnovers (two interceptions) and another 70 yarder end inside the 10 because they needed the TD. Since they couldn't run, they had to move the ball somehow. :shrug:

Manning passed for over 100 yards in the 4th quarter, if they were winning he'd probably have around 30, giving him a "normal" low-to-mid 300 number.

 

[midgar8784]

What is your point? Indy had three long drives ending in turnovers (two interceptions) and another 70 yarder end inside the 10 because they needed the TD. Since they couldn't run, they had to move the ball somehow. :shrug:

Manning passed for over 100 yards in the 4th quarter, if they were winning he'd probably have around 30, giving him a "normal" low-to-mid 300 number.

Their drives were
9 plays 76 yards td
9 plays 53 yards fumble
8 plays 44 yards fg
7 plays 44 yards interception
8 plays 59 yards interception
5 plays 50 yards TD
3 plays 21 yards punt
3 plays 56 yards td
11 plays 70 yards downs
4 plays 5 yards downs

 

[Providence Colt]

What is your point? Indy had three long drives ending in turnovers (two interceptions) and another 70 yarder end inside the 10 because they needed the TD. Since they couldn't run, they had to move the ball somehow. :shrug:

Manning passed for over 100 yards in the 4th quarter, if they were winning he'd probably have around 30, giving him a "normal" low-to-mid 300 number.

Makes sense if you don't look at the actual turnovers.

One of them should've been a touchdown pass, it was an easy pass to Kenton Keith that he let bounce of his hands and a Chargers guy happened to recover it.

The other should've led to at least a field goal, bounced off Reggie Wayne's hands.

That's 10 points and the win right there.

But yes, I know, the Middy Manifesto, that Manning is supposed to catch the ball after he throws it, block for himself, play defense, play special teams (including running kicks back, playing special teams coverage, and making the kicks), doing all of the coaching (and alll of the front office personnel moves), run the ball and be his own lead blocker, etc. etc.

 

[Providence Colt]

Their drives were
9 plays 76 yards td
9 plays 53 yards fumble
8 plays 44 yards fg
7 plays 44 yards interception
8 plays 59 yards interception
5 plays 50 yards TD
3 plays 21 yards punt
3 plays 56 yards td
11 plays 70 yards downs
4 plays 5 yards downs

What's your point?

If Brady leads the Patriots to a first down in the Super Bowl, that's game over.

By your logic, he's to blame for that Super Bowl.

Somehow, I think you're going to squirm away from blaming that on Brady.

 

[midgar8784]

Makes sense if you don't look at the actual turnovers.

One of them should've been a touchdown pass, it was an easy pass to Kenton Keith that he let bounce of his hands and a Chargers guy happened to recover it.

The other should've led to at least a field goal, bounced off Reggie Wayne's hands.

That's 10 points and the win right there.

But yes, I know, the Middy Manifesto, that Manning is supposed to catch the ball after he throws it, block for himself, play defense, play special teams (including running kicks back, playing special teams coverage, and making the kicks), doing all of the coaching (and alll of the front office personnel moves), run the ball and be his own lead blocker, etc. etc.

Of course because nothing is Manning fault. The poor guy never has any good receivers or a defense, how does he do it. Hey if you are going to make Manning the whole team, then I guess he needs to start doing that stuff, I was under the impression he already was.

 

[midgar8784]

What's your point?

If Brady leads the Patriots to a first down in the Super Bowl, that's game over.

By your logic, he's to blame for that Super Bowl.

Somehow, I think you're going to squirm away from blaming that on Brady.

He was to blame. Who am I supposed to blame the deep snapper?

 

[Providence Colt]

Of course because nothing is Manning fault. The poor guy never has any good receivers or a defense, how does he do it. Hey if you are going to make Manning the whole team, then I guess he needs to start doing that stuff, I was under the impression he already was.

Well, you've never blamed Brady for a thing ever, so that would make sense.

 

[Oswlek]

Makes sense if you don't look at the actual turnovers.

One of them should've been a touchdown pass, it was an easy pass to Kenton Keith that he let bounce of his hands and a Chargers guy happened to recover it.

The other should've led to at least a field goal, bounced off Reggie Wayne's hands.

That's 10 points and the win right there.

But yes, I know, the Middy Manifesto, that Manning is supposed to catch the ball after he throws it, block for himself, play defense, play special teams (including running kicks back, playing special teams coverage, and making the kicks), doing all of the coaching (and alll of the front office personnel moves), run the ball and be his own lead blocker, etc. etc.

You are trying to argue against a point no one was making. I didn't say Manning was the reason they lost, I simply said that losing teams often times have extra passing yards. It is the same reason why Brady cracked 400 yards passing against SF a month ago.

 

[Providence Colt]

You are trying to argue against a point no one was making. I didn't say Manning was the reason they lost, I simply said that losing teams often times have extra passing yards. It is the same reason why Brady cracked 400 yards passing against SF a month ago.

You might not have said it, but Midgar has.

 

[midgar8784]

Well, you've never blamed Brady for a thing ever, so that would make sense.

Well you are a liar, so.....