Scarnecchia

[patfan64]

Great question and I'll certainly be very interested to see if Cooper looks anything like the guy he was at NC, where he was quite amazing to watch. I plan to focus on him closely and consider him one of the more intriguing stories of camp.

Based on measurables and athleticism he should be a mortal lock to start, but there are some very large questions about his desire to be what he could be or whether he is tough enough for the pro game. Simply blaming injuries doesn't really explain his failure to carve out a role for himself in Arizona.

I'm not going to assume anything, but if Cooper turns out to be the kind of dog that some folks think he is and he gets cut then we are still in good shape at the guard position, imo.

I have to believe that Joe Thuney isn't going to be sitting on the bench for long. That kid is a gamer.

Every year, it seems BB has at least one dramatic camp cut.

I expect Cooper to be that cut this year.

I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Hawg73]

Every year, it seems BB has at least one dramatic camp cut.

I expect Cooper to be that cut this year.

I hope I'm wrong.

You could very well be right, but maybe Cooper just needed a Master motivator and technician to light a fire under his ass. Maybe Scar can help him realize his potential and in the process he becomes the Master's masterpiece. Michelangelo's "David" was once just a partially-finished block of marble that sat neglected in the yard of a Cathedral workshop for 25 years until they found the right guy to finish it.

Nobody can say one way or the other right now. All will become clearer between the white lines in a few weeks.

Getting him was a shot in the dark anyhow and the upside could be tremendous. We can't really lose.

 

[patfan64]

You could very well be right, but maybe Cooper just needed a Master motivator and technician to light a fire under his ass. Maybe Scar can help him realize his potential and in the process he becomes the Master's masterpiece. Michelangelo's "David" was once just a partially-finished block of marble that sat neglected in the yard of a Cathedral workshop for 25 years until they found the right guy to finish it.

Nobody can say one way or the other right now. All will become clearer between the white lines in a few weeks.

Getting him was a shot in the dark anyhow and the upside could be tremendous. We can't really lose.

Wow. Jonathon Cooper is David. Haha.

I really hope you are right. And I hope Thuney is the beast that everyone says he might be.

 

[AZPats]

Great question and I'll certainly be very interested to see if Cooper looks anything like the guy he was at NC, where he was quite amazing to watch. I plan to focus on him closely and consider him one of the more intriguing stories of camp.

Based on measurables and athleticism he should be a mortal lock to start, but there are some very large questions about his desire to be what he could be or whether he is tough enough for the pro game. Simply blaming injuries doesn't really explain his failure to carve out a role for himself in Arizona.

I'm not going to assume anything, but if Cooper turns out to be the kind of dog that some folks think he is and he gets cut then we are still in good shape at the guard position, imo.
I have to believe that Joe Thuney isn't going to be sitting on the bench for long. That kid is a gamer.

Hawg, I respect your opinion about linemen and line play.

Who do you think are the best LG candidates and who are the best RG candidates, and why do you think so? What are the principal differences between the Guard positions? I like Masons pulling ability, but maybe his lack of pass blocking experience hurts on the left side, where Solder needs to tend to his own knitting, and not be required to help out the LG?
Scar has called Thuney a G and not a tackle, but he has pass blocking ability, so does he fit best as a pass blocking LG ?:shrug_n:

 

[chevss454]

The depth chart (unofficial) on Patriots.com lists


LG Shaq Mason, JKline, JThuney and AKarras
RG Tre Jackson, JCooper, Chris Barker and Keavon Milton?

I see fierce competition during TC for both G positions as well as the C position

 

[Hawg73]

Hawg, I respect your opinion about linemen and line play.

Who do you think are the best LG candidates and who are the best RG candidates, and why do you think so? What are the principal differences between the Guard positions? I like Masons pulling ability, but maybe his lack of pass blocking experience hurts on the left side, where Solder needs to tend to his own knitting, and not be required to help out the LG?
Scar has called Thuney a G and not a tackle, but he has pass blocking ability, so does he fit best as a pass blocking LG ?:shrug_n:

Thanks. I don't claim anything other than I try to pay attention to OLs in general and especially ours.

It's no secret I'm a Shaq Mason fan and think, all things considered, he had a hell of a rookie year. After intially being way behind the curve in pass blocking I thought he got better, but he played a bunch of good snaps for this team including the somewhat inexplicable switch to RG for the playoffs.

I saw Shaq make a bunch of plays that were eye-popping and I was glad to see him get some props later on. He isn't just an "athlete" and has great power to move and turn guys and works very hard. I'd say he was erratic, certainly and he made some glaring mental mistakes and at times his technique just broke down, but there is no question that he can be a really good player.

I think he should definitely win a starting job. I don't see that the Pats really see a huge difference in responsibility between LG and RG -- at least not a real pattern that I can see of "power" guys on the right and "athletes" at left, but some observers thought Mason's playoff performance at RG were his two best games of the year. I'm a little skeptical of that and thought he came unglued along with everybody else against Denver, but I think he should be a really good player with that experience under his pads.

I was impressed with Tre Jackson early on, but he's not going to be great on the move. He does a good job of knowing what he's supposed to be doing and neutralizing guys in the box. I expected he would have been more of a power player based on his body type, but he didn't strike me that way on the field. Kind of a fudgehammer guy, but we could do worse than Jackson. Like Josh Kline, for instance, who I'm not wild about. We seem to have one guard too many, so maybe Jackson goes in favor of Kline even though that makes no sense to me.

I have no real idea how Cooper will make out until I see him here, but if I had to guess right now I'd venture that Cooper starts the season at LG and Mason at right.

As a wild guess, I'm going to suggest that Thuney starts for us before the season is out somewhere. I'm also not ruling out tackle for him and I don't care if his arms are a little short. I think he is going to be too good and too versatile to redshirt him or let him ride the pine for long.

 

[chevss454]

I have no real idea how Cooper will make out until I see him here, but if I had to guess right now I'd venture that Cooper starts the season at LG and Mason at right.

As a wild guess, I'm going to suggest that Thuney starts for us before the season is out somewhere. I'm also not ruling out tackle for him and I don't care if his arms are a little short. I think he is going to be too good and too versatile to redshirt him or let him ride the pine for long.

I think so, too, Hawg. (I posted exactly that in another thread.)

 

[sg14]

Couple of years ago Matt Chatham was explaining that when the team put two similar guards, think Wendell and Connolly-both very mobile then they could run similar plays to both sides. The offence took off from there.

Prior to that line up they had "dissimilar "players (forget who) and their play selection was limited.

So then Mason-Cooper lines up with that.

 

[Hawg73]

Couple of years ago Matt Chatham was explaining that when the team put two similar guards, think Wendell and Connolly-both very mobile then they could run similar plays to both sides. The offence took off from there.

Prior to that line up they had "dissimilar "players (forget who) and their play selection was limited.

So then Mason-Cooper lines up with that.

I'd bet that if somebody asked Bill or Dante about that general topic, they'd have a lot to say, but I can't really see any particular pattern as to what kind of guy lines up on which side.

For instance, we had Mankins at LG and Neal at RG for several years. Neal was better on the move. Later, we had Connelly at RG and that was the same deal.

Last year we had Mason primarily on the left side and he was much more mobile than Jackson who played the majority of the RG snaps.

I'm sure there is some method to it and I'd be very curious to hear a good explanation, although I'm not sure if that would be something they would want to get specific about.

 

[sg14]

Could be Popovich signed to replace Scar when he retires,,,,

http://www.patspulpit.com/2016/7/24...at-fundamental-teacher-of-offensive-line-play


Some interesting side stories..

 

[patfan64]

Could be Popovich signed to replace Scar when he retires,,,,

http://www.patspulpit.com/2016/7/24...at-fundamental-teacher-of-offensive-line-play


Some interesting side stories..

Great. Another coach that doesn't conform to the Rooney Rule.

BB is the debil.

 

[O_P_T]

Thanks. I don't claim anything other than I try to pay attention to OLs in general and especially ours.

It's no secret I'm a Shaq Mason fan and think, all things considered, he had a hell of a rookie year. After intially being way behind the curve in pass blocking I thought he got better, but he played a bunch of good snaps for this team including the somewhat inexplicable switch to RG for the playoffs.

I saw Shaq make a bunch of plays that were eye-popping and I was glad to see him get some props later on. He isn't just an "athlete" and has great power to move and turn guys and works very hard. I'd say he was erratic, certainly and he made some glaring mental mistakes and at times his technique just broke down, but there is no question that he can be a really good player.

I think he should definitely win a starting job. I don't see that the Pats really see a huge difference in responsibility between LG and RG -- at least not a real pattern that I can see of "power" guys on the right and "athletes" at left, but some observers thought Mason's playoff performance at RG were his two best games of the year. I'm a little skeptical of that and thought he came unglued along with everybody else against Denver, but I think he should be a really good player with that experience under his pads.

I was impressed with Tre Jackson early on, but he's not going to be great on the move. He does a good job of knowing what he's supposed to be doing and neutralizing guys in the box. I expected he would have been more of a power player based on his body type, but he didn't strike me that way on the field. Kind of a fudgehammer guy, but we could do worse than Jackson. Like Josh Kline, for instance, who I'm not wild about. We seem to have one guard too many, so maybe Jackson goes in favor of Kline even though that makes no sense to me.

I have no real idea how Cooper will make out until I see him here, but if I had to guess right now I'd venture that Cooper starts the season at LG and Mason at right.

As a wild guess, I'm going to suggest that Thuney starts for us before the season is out somewhere. I'm also not ruling out tackle for him and I don't care if his arms are a little short. I think he is going to be too good and too versatile to redshirt him or let him ride the pine for long.

Reiss had this to say after the spring practices.

G/C Joe Thuney (third round, 78th overall): Thuney was at left guard with the top unit at the start of spring practices, which had me thinking, “Could this be another Logan Mankins situation, in which he’s plugged in from day one, and the spot isn’t a concern for the foreseeable future?” While the Patriots didn't appear to have a major need at guard, Thuney might represent the team's safest pick overall.

Granted, spring practices can be deceiving, but Reiss isn't one to resort to hyperbole, so that bit stuck with me.

 

[Hawg73]

Reiss had this to say after the spring practices.


Granted, spring practices can be deceiving, but Reiss isn't one to resort to hyperbole, so that bit stuck with me.

That is interesting. Thanks.

I'd like to state that you just can't tell how good a college kid is going to be until he makes the giant leap in competition. I've seen a hundred guys that certainly looked like good players in college and did zero in the pros.

Having said that, when I watched Thuney he really does show a lot of polish. His balance is good, his feet are always under him and he seemed to demonstrate really good core strength and pop with his hands. In short, there doesn't look like there are any major flaws. He's not as big as a lot of his peers and there is the "short arms" tag on him, but we've had guys in here recently that earned time and didn't show half of what he has walking in the door no matter how good they looked in pads.

We've had Chris Barker on the roster for a couple of years and I can't understand why. I can't see a single plus attribute except for size and he's sloppy and shows no functional power to go along with slow feet and reaction time. I don't get him at all. He looks hapless wherever they put him, imo.

Sometimes you can see what they liked in a guy like, say, Jordan Devey, He had a big frame and moved really well, but he just got tossed around by everybody. Just not physical enough at all and they let him walk.

Then you have Ryan Wendell who looked completely overmatched initially and they worked him into a decent, scrappy player who had given us a lot of quality snaps despite having a bad body and really short arms.

In short, lots of OLs need several years of development in hopes they can even compete for time.

Thuney isn't like those guys at all. If he learns his assignments quickly then I just can't see him needing years of work to contribute. He just doesn't get beat much and has that knack for staying in control and in between his man and where that man wants to be. It sounds overly simple, but a lot of guys just really aren't that good at it. His hand usage and mirroring skills would appear fairly advanced to my completely amateur eye.

I'm really just guessing here, but I don't think Dante is going to be able to keep him on the bench unless Cooper and Mason really kill it in camp and if we have a need at OT (which is likely) then despite Scar's statement about how we plan to use Thuney inside I think he will stick him out on the edge and see what he can do, perhaps out of desperation to find a swing tackle that can handle heat off the edge.

 

[O_P_T]

Reiss had this to say after the spring practices.

G/C Joe Thuney (third round, 78th overall): Thuney was at left guard with the top unit at the start of spring practices, which had me thinking, “Could this be another Logan Mankins situation, in which he’s plugged in from day one, and the spot isn’t a concern for the foreseeable future?” While the Patriots didn't appear to have a major need at guard, Thuney might represent the team's safest pick overall.​

Granted, spring practices can be deceiving, but Reiss isn't one to resort to hyperbole, so that bit stuck with me.

So far it seems like Mike was spot on on this prediction.

 

[O_P_T]

More from Reiss on Thuney.

Joe Thuney's quick Patriots rise sparks thoughts of Logan Mankins, others

FOXBOROUGH, Mass. -- The last time the New England Patriots drafted a left tackle and inserted him at left guard from Day 1, things couldn't have worked out any better. Logan Mankins started immediately and the club essentially didn't have to worry about the position for the next nine seasons (2005-2013).

Could history be repeating itself?

Third-round draft choice Joe Thuney of NC State lined up as the Patriots' first-unit left guard from the first day of spring practices and hasn't been moved off the spot.

Comparing him to Mankins is obviously a false start worthy of a penalty flag -- after all, he hasn't even played a regular-season NFL game -- but Thuney's first four months on the job have some similarities to the perennial Pro Bowler.

Much like Mankins was moved inside to left guard because the Patriots had Matt Light entrenched at left tackle, Thuney made the same move this season because Nate Solder returns at left tackle. Coach Bill Belichick called it a temporary move initially but, much like Mankins in 2005, the 6-foot-5, 305-pound Thuney is putting what appears to be a permanent stamp on the position.

"He has handled it well, so I think he's certainly moving towards being able to lock something down [in terms of a starting role]," Belichick said Tuesday, making an exception of sorts in acknowledging the depth chart with a rookie. "I don't think we're there yet, but he's certainly gaining on it. He has had a good preseason; had a good spring."

Belichick's comments on Thuney (pronounced TOO-nee) sparked some discussion among reporters on past rookies with whom he might favorably compare. While his position switch and early stranglehold on the left guard position has links to Mankins, here are a few other Patriots who come to mind from Belichick's tenure (2000-present) as it relates to Thuney:

1. Dan Koppen (2003, fifth round) -- The center from Boston College started from Day 1 and had a level of maturity that belied his age. Turns out both Koppen and Thuney were recruited in college by the same head coach they initially played for, Tom O'Brien. One difference between Koppen and Thuney is that Koppen was a pure center, while Thuney's athleticism makes him an option to play other spots if needed.

2. Benjamin Watson (2004, first round) -- A tight end from Georgia, he scored a 48 on his Wonderlic test, which tied for the third-highest mark in NFL history. That level of intelligence has some links to Thuney, who earned his first college degree in three years and graduated cum laude with an accounting degree.

3. Sebastian Vollmer (2009, second round) -- When the Patriots selected Vollmer 58th overall, it was viewed by some as a "reach" because he wasn't a highly-touted prospect and wasn't invited to the combine. Thuney, meanwhile, was invited to the combine but, like Vollmer, was viewed by some as more of a middle- to late-round projection. But both showed pretty early that they belonged.

4. Russ Hochstein (2002, practice squad) -- A valuable reserve for the team from 2002-2008, he played all three interior positions and kicked out to tackle in a pinch. That is the main link to Thuney, who started games at four of the five positions on the offensive line at NC State -- left tackle, left guard, right guard and right tackle. From an athleticism standpoint, Thuney is a cut above.