The 53, Pre-season, Take-1

Jerry sees it as I do and in the end Kyed backtracks.

Jerry Thornton ‏<s>@</s>jerrythornton1 <s>@</s>DougKyedNEPD I don't see it as a matter of the depth chart, but of roles. BB is power/inside back, SV a spread/3rd down guy
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<small class="time"> 10m </small> Doug Kyed ‏<s>@</s>DougKyedNEPD
<s>@</s>jerrythornton1 I think that's an excuse. It wasn't how they were used vs the Saints.



Doug Kyed ‏<s>@</s>DougKyedNEPD
RE Woodhead on bubble, don't see it. Most experienced/dependable RB. Too valuable in the no huddle. Knows the offense best. Versatile.



Doug Kyed ‏<s>@</s>DougKyedNEPD
RE Woodhead, though I will say this. I think he's overrated in NE from a talent standpoint. Doesn't really do anything great.

After all this, Kyed seems to agree with me

Doug Kyed ‏<s>@</s>DougKyedNEPD One more on Pats RBs, I don't think it's necessary to keep two Woodhead/Vereen RBs, I do think it's necessary to keep two Ridley/Bolden RBs
And I'm not saying Vereen will, should, or even likely will get cut/traded. But at this point, you have to view it as a possibility.


Funny stuff with so much camp to play out.
 
Bubble guys per Pats ESPN dudes.

http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/8267376/new-england-patriots-learn-lot-critical-week-camp


Monday, August 13, 2012
Some Patriots have a lot to prove
By ESPNBoston.com

FOXBOROUGH, Mass. -- When the New England Patriots returned to the practice field Sunday, coach Bill Belichick said a key checkpoint had been reached in training camp.

"This is a big week. Time's running out for whatever moves anybody's going to make, they've got to make them," he said.

The first roster cut, from 90 to 75, is scheduled for Aug. 27. The final roster cut, from 75 to 53, is set for Aug. 31.

With this in mind, our Patriots reporters each picked one player on both sides of the ball who falls into the "have-to-make-a-move" category.

MIKE REISS

Offense: Marcus Cannon (offensive tackle)


Marcus Cannon hasn't instilled a lot of confidence that he can step in as a starter.
The second-year blocker will almost certainly be on the final 53-man roster. The question from this view is whether he will earn the coaching staff's trust as a Day 1 starter should Sebastian Vollmer's back injury keep him on the physically-unable-to-perform list into the regular season.

If not, another roster move might be required, which could explain the team's reported interest in free agent Chad Clifton.

In one-on-one rush drills on Monday, the 6-foot-5, 340-pound Cannon looked to be having a lot of trouble. Rob Ninkovich's speed has been a tough matchup for him on a daily basis and reserve Tim Bulman also got into him with a power move to score a victory. This has been a consistent theme in camp.

Some draft analysts viewed Cannon as a better fit at guard in the NFL, but in explaining why tackle is the best fit in New England, Belichick said, "He's big, he's strong, he's in good condition [and] he's got the feet to be able to play out there in space."

Belichick also pointed out that Cannon has a long history of playing the position in college, but the NFL is another step up. It will be interesting to see how Cannon fares in this defining week.

Defense: Will Allen (safety)

Now in his 12th NFL season, Allen has found himself in two unfamiliar spots in the Patriots' training camp -- at safety instead of cornerback and as a reserve instead of a starter.

The Patriots have worked Patrick Chung and Steve Gregory as their starting safeties, and second-round draft choice Tavon Wilson is a roster lock. This puts the squeeze on Allen, whose stock could be hurt further by the fact he doesn't play a large role on special teams. He played only in the second half in the preseason opener against the Saints.

But this is a big week for him, as reserve safety James Ihedigbo -- a big presence on special teams -- has been out of practice with a foot injury. That has opened the door for Allen, who like Gregory is more of a coverage option at safety, to take reps next to Wilson.

If Allen shows up, and also makes plays in the slot in sub packages (competition comes in the form of Marquice Cole, among others), it could affect Belichick's decision-making on the final roster.

Allen has had a quiet camp to this point.

MIKE RODAK

Offense: Dan Koppen (center)

A year ago, it would be strange to hear Koppen's name mentioned among players who need to "make a move" to have a role with the Patriots coming out of training camp. But things have certainly changed for the 32-year-old veteran, who found himself lining up alongside unfamiliar players in the second half of Thursday's preseason opener.

Patriots Blog

Mike Reiss (pictured), Mike Rodak and Field Yates have you covered at Patriots training camp. You can send questions and comments to Reiss' mailbag.
• ESPNBoston.com
• ESPN.com: AFC East blog

At this point in camp, it appears that the team is more comfortable starting Ryan Wendell or Dan Connolly at center than it is giving Koppen his old job back. If Brian Waters, who has not reported to camp, returns by the start of the regular season, the squeeze will be on for Koppen, who could be fighting for a roster spot. As a reserve, one strike against Koppen will be his lack of positional versatility, contrasted with Nick McDonald, who has lined up at all five offensive line spots in camp.

With Logan Mankins coming off the PUP list on Sunday, he is a lock to be on the opening day roster, along with Wendell and Connolly. The seats in the offensive line's meetings are filling up, meaning that Koppen needs to make a move to keep his locker in Gillette Stadium past Aug. 31.

Defense: Jeff Tarpinian (linebacker)

With linebacker Dane Fletcher waived after suffering an ACL tear in Thursday's preseason opener, Tarpinian could stand to benefit the most. As an undrafted rookie last season, Tarpinian made the 53-man roster and became a contributor on special teams, while also making a start on defense when injuries hit.

So far in camp, Tarpinian had looked to be part of a "second wave" of linebackers, separate from a top group that included Fletcher and veteran newcomer Bobby Carpenter. With Fletcher out of the picture, Tarpinian has a chance to crack that group, but it is an opportunity he must seize.

If Carpenter becomes the top reserve option for the unit, Tarpinian could become the next man up. Perhaps his best path to a role with the team will be in sub packages, where he is considered strong in pass coverage.

The other area where Tarpinian must make a move is on special teams, where Fletcher was a part of at least three of the "core four" units. With a week before their next preseason game, the upcoming practices will be critical for Tarpinian in proving he is the right player to fill Fletcher's role.

FIELD YATES

Offense: Spencer Larsen (fullback)
Larsen, who is currently sidelined with an undisclosed injury, was signed this offseason and expected to be a player who offered versatility as both a fullback and special teamer. Limited to just a handful of practices in training camp, he has not yet appeared to settle in as the undisputed top fullback.

With Tony Fiammetta on the reserve/left squad list (rendering him out for the 2012 season) and Eric Kettani nursing an injury, the fullback position has come out of focus in the Patriots' offense.

It was believed that new coordinator Josh McDaniels would install a number of two-back sets into his offense, but the absence of healthy bodies has precluded the team from taking as many reps as it may have wanted.

For Larsen, a return to the field, coupled with productive days at work, could help cement his status on the roster and the role of the fullback within the Patriots' offense. Should he stay sidelined and be unable to return for an extended period, the team may turn to its proven strategy of adapting to what it has and moving forward without a fullback.

Defense: Ron Brace (defensive tackle)


Entering his fourth NFL season, it's time for Ron Brace to show he can be a consistent contributor.
Entering his fourth year in the NFL, Brace has yet to consistently produce and stay on the field as a member of the Patriots' defense.

He recently returned from an injury that stunted his hot start to training camp, during which he flashed impressive power and ability to generate an interior pass rush.

With a number of defensive ends in the mix to stay on the roster, as well as the emergence of young players such as Justin Francis on the defensive line, Brace must show he can harness his ability and make an on-field impact.

If healthy, he appears to have scheme versatility within his massive frame and he is a difficult body to move in the running game.

But like many other positions, the Patriots have created a deep competition along the defensive front, meaning all players will have to step up in both practice and Monday's game against the Eagles to prove they should stick around. For Brace, consistency and execution are the keys.
 
I just spoke to Mike Reiss who says all this commotion about Vereen being on the bubble is a lot of crap. He also says his sources w/in the organization say Fears loves Vereen and Vereen will be on the game day roster if he's healthy.
 
I was wrong about the "past two years" part-- an egregious error on my part.

For some reason, I thought this was his 3rd year and I stand corrected. And a little embarassed. Maybe I got him mixed up with Ron Brace, which is understandable.

:rolleyes:

That makes my previous post on his status as questionable at best and probably impatient, but if you didn't see him get stuffed for a loss last Thursday while dancing for a hole on the right side then you missed one.

Still, it was an encouraging performance and I'd like to see him play tougher moving forward.

:jester:

Yes, eggregious.

I am being nit picky, but it really is a significant difference between doing nothing for one injured year (that a shitload of rookies also suffered from last year due to the lockout) and two absent seasons.

but if you didn't see him get stuffed for a loss last Thursday while dancing for a hole on the right side then you missed one.

Yes, I did miss that one.

My post wasn't directed at you, per se. Just the legions of people who read a couple reports from Rodak and Reiss about Vereen's "struggles" to open camp (when several other reports contradicted those) and seem to have exaggerated and amplified it 10X over.

Based on everything I've read, Shane had 3-4 potentially down practices. Since then he's been doing well according to every report, yet you still see people lamenting his "disappointing" camp. :rolleyes:
 
I just spoke to Mike Reiss who says all this commotion about Vereen being on the bubble is a lot of crap. He also says his sources w/in the organization say Fears loves Vereen and Vereen will be on the game day roster if he's healthy.

Great news! :toast:
 
:jester:

Yes, eggregious.

I am being nit picky, but it really is a significant difference between doing nothing for one injured year (that a shitload of rookies also suffered from last year due to the lockout) and two absent seasons.

Nah, I shouldn't have spouted off without having my facts straight.

If memory serves, he did play a bit last year and showed, I thought, eye-opening speed.

I just think he is quite different from the kind of backs BB typically has on his roster and if you buy the "BB won't play a back that can't pick up the blitz and gets Brady killed" theory, then you wonder how much playing time he is going to get in order to improve in that department. Woody is certainly willing, but nobody is going to claim he's an effective blocker. However, it's a fact that we haven't seen a whole lot of "finesse" backs here over BB's reign. Call it a tendency more than a rule and our head MILF Hunter has showed he is willing to change his MO if it'll make the club better.

Based on everything I've read, Shane had 3-4 potentially down practices. Since then he's been doing well according to every report, yet you still see people lamenting his "disappointing" camp. :rolleyes:

There is definitely some impatience combined with some legitimate head-scratching at the way the RB group is constituted. Most of the time BB structures his roster to stay ahead of the curve dictated by rules, trends etc., but I'd be hard-pressed to guess at what he is shooting for here. Maybe a slasher/chain mover (Ridley, Bolden) combined with a 3rd down guy (Woody, Vereen) stacked two deep at each role to plan for attrition? But who blocks Terrell Suggs on 3rd and 9? Are they really planning to go more I formation with this group?

I'm very interested in how this plays out. First order of business is probably going to be to determine if Bolden is just a TC flash-in-the-pan and take it from there.
 
Caserio just said there's no truth to the Chad Clifton rumors. He said players will soon be available at every position and they will all be monitored.
 
I'd be hard-pressed to guess at what he is shooting for here. Maybe a slasher/chain mover (Ridley, Bolden) combined with a 3rd down guy (Woody, Vereen) stacked two deep at each role to plan for attrition? But who blocks Terrell Suggs on 3rd and 9? Are they really planning to go more I formation with this group?

Vereen actually came in with more blocking skills that most rookie RBs, it was something he did well in college. Obviously the NFL is a different level, but there is reason to expect him to figure it out.

I think Shane was brought in because NE wanted someone who was capable as both a runner and receiver. In 2010 (the season that led to them investing two high picks), NY took advantage of NE's predictable RB usage in the playoff game. In come Ridley, who both appear to have more running skills than Woody but more receiving abilities than BJGE. The blocking will come in time.
 
I keep waiting to see something in Silvesto and haven't managed to find anything yet. I thought he was woeful at DE last season and he doesn't look like much of a blocker thus far at TE, which is all you want to see at this point from a former DL.

We shouldn't expect much this early, but the position change doesn't bode well for his chances, imo. I don't think he's shown enough to stick on the PS, but the jury is still out.

Like I said, "scout team" - a guy to simply fill a role for the 53 to practice against - rather than as a developmental prospect. He can represent either a DL or a TE, depending on what BB needs from him for the upcoming opponent (and he doesn't have to be 53-man material for this, though he probably does need to improve at least a little at TE). IIRC, he's also fairly decent on ST, so he'd be almost like having a 9th guy for the scout team.
 
Fletcher made it to IR.

Since the Pats assigned him to IR, it appears they simply wanted to clear the roster spot for flexibility to sign someone quickly should the opportunity arise.
 
Doug Kyed of NEPDraft stirred up a shit storm on twitter when he posted that Bolden has passed Vereen on the depth chart and that Vereen is on the bubble.

Like I said - way, WAY too much into this "depth chart" thing.

Ridley/Bolden project to play a much different role from Woody/Vereen - almost a different position. Comparing Vereen to Bolden because they're both RB is almost like comparing Justin Francis to Kyle Love because they're both DL.

Even if Vereen is limited early on until his pass-pro improves, he'll still get his chances to make an impact. And, even as a backup/relief-man for Woody, all it means is that the Pats' "2nd string" CoP RB is likely significantly better than the 2nd string guys on most teams.
 
Like I said - way, WAY too much into this "depth chart" thing.

Ridley/Bolden project to play a much different role from Woody/Vereen - almost a different position. Comparing Vereen to Bolden because they're both RB is almost like comparing Justin Francis to Kyle Love because they're both DL.

Even if Vereen is limited early on until his pass-pro improves, he'll still get his chances to make an impact. And, even as a backup/relief-man for Woody, all it means is that the Pats' "2nd string" CoP RB is likely significantly better than the 2nd string guys on most teams.

Kyed caught a lot of grief over that.
 
Even if Vereen is limited early on until his pass-pro improves, he'll still get his chances to make an impact. And, even as a backup/relief-man for Woody, all it means is that the Pats' "2nd string" CoP RB is likely significantly better than the 2nd string guys on most teams.

Agreed. Vereen can be an effective performer capable of a lot of snaps even as his pass pro skills evolve. The Pats made use of empty sets 207 times last year by my numbers which are probably off as few due to penalties and missed plays. They called 206 empty passes and one run. Not all empty passes are five man spread protections however. The Pats used an attached TE to create six man protections frequently and used max calls to pull Gronk in from empty sets to create six and seven man empty protections as well. If Vereen is in the game, he can split out wide or as an inside receiver while a TE could be used to pass pro instead.

BOB used an interesting wrinkle last year to attack man coverage/read blitz teams by using six man empty protections where Gronk was used to block one for two. He would block a DE or OLB while reading the defender who was covering him in man. If the man defender read his block and blitzed (something that hurt the Pats in 2010) Gronk would release as a hot read. Brady and Gronk teamed up on this technique for a nice TD against Washington. I can see more experimentation along these lines which would get a Vereen into the game as a split receiver not involved in the protection.

The Pats ran the ball from gun about 96 times last year by my numbers, (33 powers, 22 Draws, 18 Inside Zones, 7 Tosses, 4 Dashes, 3 Outside Zones, 2 ISOs, 3 Traps, 2 Sweeps, and 2 Whams). They also threw 352 passes (15 Play-Action) from the gun where there was a Running Back aligned in the backfield. The RB often released on these pass calls making their blocking skills irrelevant on those plays.

Josh McD may change these numbers up to some degree but there will still be plenty of opportunities for Vereen to make an impact as a runner & passer as he hones his blocking skills.
 
Agreed. Vereen can be an effective performer capable of a lot of snaps even as his pass pro skills evolve. The Pats made use of empty sets 207 times last year by my numbers which are probably off as few due to penalties and missed plays. They called 206 empty passes and one run. Not all empty passes are five man spread protections however. The Pats used an attached TE to create six man protections frequently and used max calls to pull Gronk in from empty sets to create six and seven man empty protections as well. If Vereen is in the game, he can split out wide or as an inside receiver while a TE could be used to pass pro instead.

BOB used an interesting wrinkle last year to attack man coverage/read blitz teams by using six man empty protections where Gronk was used to block one for two. He would block a DE or OLB while reading the defender who was covering him in man. If the man defender read his block and blitzed (something that hurt the Pats in 2010) Gronk would release as a hot read. Brady and Gronk teamed up on this technique for a nice TD against Washington. I can see more experimentation along these lines which would get a Vereen into the game as a split receiver not involved in the protection.

The Pats ran the ball from gun about 96 times last year by my numbers, (33 powers, 22 Draws, 18 Inside Zones, 7 Tosses, 4 Dashes, 3 Outside Zones, 2 ISOs, 3 Traps, 2 Sweeps, and 2 Whams). They also threw 352 passes (15 Play-Action) from the gun where there was a Running Back aligned in the backfield. The RB often released on these pass calls making their blocking skills irrelevant on those plays.

Josh McD may change these numbers up to some degree but there will still be plenty of opportunities for Vereen to make an impact as a runner & passer as he hones his blocking skills.

Another example of why we like having you around here. Awesome post.
Kyed is beginning to weasle his way out of his statement that Vereen is on the bubble. Now he's saying he never wanted Vereen released.
 
Another example of why we like having you around here. Awesome post.
Kyed is beginning to weasle his way out of his statement that Vereen is on the bubble. Now he's saying he never wanted Vereen released.

He developed a man crush on Bolden right out of the box which has tempered in recent days. Not an uncommon occurrence.
 
Another example of why we like having you around here. Awesome post.
Kyed is beginning to weasle his way out of his statement that Vereen is on the bubble. Now he's saying he never wanted Vereen released.

To be fair, thinking it might happen and wanting it to happen aren't the same thing.
 
he Pats ran the ball from gun about 96 times last year

Of all the things in your post, AWTE, this intrigues me the most. I've been of the mind that NE wants this number to higher, especially in comparison to the number of pass plays from the gun.

I think that is what they really have in mind with Shane. A shot-gun back who is a genuine threat to run rather than a guy who just catches people off guard on occasion.
 
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