The Thing Carroll Did Right.

[shirtsleeve]

The last time the Pats hoisted the Lombardi, Ty Law and Rodney were in our Backfield. Then the league changed all the rules. Those who have been around long enough have heard me rant about needing to upgrade the value of CB and SS. Repeatedly.

This team does not need an all world stat driven offense. It needs a great defense built from back to front, not front to back. I have been saying this for almost a decade now.

Talib let us have a glimpse of how the db's change and strengthen the whole D when he was healthy and strong this season.

Carroll and the gm out there did just that. A great D built from back to front just handed the most explosive ever offense in the history of the league their asses.

 

[UberDoober]

Their defense is farkin awesome! Their offense is hit and miss.

 

[shirtsleeve]

Their defense is farkin awesome! Their offense is hit and miss.

And Baltimore's O last season were incredible?

Oh and the only three blowout s.b wins in the free agency era were done by teams with smothering D's. Ravens, Bucs, and now the Seahawks. None of them had O's to blow anyone out. There is a pattern here.

This team only needs a capable, disciplined, and productive O, not a world beating one. Its not a coincidence that the three times the Pats actually hoisted the Lombardi, their D was pretty tough themselves.

 

[UberDoober]

And Baltimore's O last season were incredible?

Oh and the only three blowout s.b wins in the free agency era were done by teams with smothering D's. Ravens, Bucs, and now the Seahawks. None of them had O's to blow anyone out. There is a pattern here.

This team only needs a capable, disciplined, and productive O, not a world beating one. Its not a coincidence that the three times the Pats actually hoisted the Lombardi, their D was pretty tough themselves.

Yeah, kind of seems like a pattern here.

Time to focus on the defense. And a tall wr like Boldin (Harrison?). Jamie Collins sounds like a great base to start from.

 

[MaineMan]

I was reading through some Senior Bowl practice notes yesterday and came across this description of DT Caraun Reid (6021/310, Princeton): "He plays with violence and bad intentions."

To me, that perfectly describes the whole Seahawks defense and, really, all the other great defenses we've seen. And it's what the Pats' defense lacks. The Pats' defense by comparison seems very calm and methodical. Aside from Spikes and a bit from Talib, they just never seem to have any attitude or aggressiveness. I mean, there's pretty close to enough talent out there on the field to get the job done now, but it's as if they're in "Prevent" all the time.

And that's on the coaches. Seems to me they need to change their approach.

 

[Hawg73]

I was reading through some Senior Bowl practice notes yesterday and came across this description of DT Caraun Reid (6021/310, Princeton): "He plays with violence and bad intentions."

To me, that perfectly describes the whole Seahawks defense and, really, all the other great defenses we've seen. And it's what the Pats' defense lacks. The Pats' defense by comparison seems very calm and methodical. Aside from Spikes and a bit from Talib, they just never seem to have any attitude or aggressiveness. I mean, there's pretty close to enough talent out there on the field to get the job done now, but it's as if they're in "Prevent" all the time.

And that's on the coaches. Seems to me they need to change their approach.

I agree that the Pats D often seems passive and that is apparently how Bill prefers them to play and it's frustrating to watch them let opposing QBs get their rhythm when just about all of us want to see a more dominant, aggressive style. It's Bill, imo and not the personnel

I suppose that Seattle's performance means that any tall defensive backs coming out will get a longer look and teams will try to imitate the superb job they did drafting that backfield, but good luck to anybody trying to find a whole group of guys that big that can play like Sherman, Chancellor, etc.

Their scheme is excellent, they play a complementary style with great zone discipline and always seem to double at the right time. They get good pressure from a variety of players and are about as good a D as you will ever see. They were flawless yesterday and all you can do is call them daddy and hope contracts, coach poaching and injuries will derail them before they become unbeatable for the next few years.

It's hard for a Patriots fan to see how much better they are than we are at present and I'm damn glad it wasn't us out there getting eviscerated like Denver did last night. They would have killed us. It's a blessing that we didn't have to deal with that.

We've got serious work to do because they set the bar last night.

 

[chevss454]

I was reading through some Senior Bowl practice notes yesterday and came across this description of DT Caraun Reid (6021/310, Princeton): "He plays with violence and bad intentions."

To me, that perfectly describes the whole Seahawks defense and, really, all the other great defenses we've seen. And it's what the Pats' defense lacks. The Pats' defense by comparison seems very calm and methodical. Aside from Spikes and a bit from Talib, they just never seem to have any attitude or aggressiveness. I mean, there's pretty close to enough talent out there on the field to get the job done now, but it's as if they're in "Prevent" all the time.

And that's on the coaches. Seems to me they need to change their approach.

Maybe all Pats fans will begin to see the coaching turnover this year as an opportunity to regain some fire and brimstone for the entire team.

I'm all for a game changing weapon for Brady still but the D & the DT position in particular just went up 2 notches for me. I wouldn't mind a bit if BB went DT or DT/DE with 2 high picks as long as he chooses mobile pass rushers. This isn't a game for fatties at DT anymore, imo, bc of the way the game has evolved. Whether it's a Kaep type at QB or a pocket passer, DTs have to be mobile and aware. Brick walls at DT have become role players at the goal line and in short distance situations. (Btw, I cringe every time I think BB just missed out on Red Bryant 2 yrs ago.)

Carroll said last night in a post game interview that he patterned his D after the great Lombardi Ds at GB that won so many championships. Stout mobile DL, active athletic linebackers, and intimidating DBs with emphasis at the DL and DB positions. All with attitude (Nitschke came to mind immediately).



Looks like he hit his mark dead center.

 

[shirtsleeve]

Tru dat chevvs.

When we went on the 3-4 tear, and Polian changed all the rules permanently, I knew that the era of the smurf DB was over. Its been demonstrated over this last decade that tall, physical, smart WR's and TE's with smooth hips are just dominating the opposing secondaries to the point of an obvious mismatch. I know that people like to focus on the stats and numbers on O, and want to build the best O around. Its not the answer. Nor is the "can he rush the passer" mantra in every draft thread. Especially with the advent of the read option offense. That passer isn't on point to rush, he's down the field. Speed outside in the front is essential now.

But more than that, the very most important positions on the field now, on the d side are in the secondary. It is essential to eliminate the physical mismatch between the TE's and WR's and the DB's. Once the physical (and football intelligence) mismatches have been eliminated, you can coach em up, and suddenly the pass rush looks so much better. The D is off the field on third down, and the offense is back on it. Sometimes in great shape. With the rules changes, that is the magic button to success. Its been my mantra for years. Box and I would go head to head in draft threads about that stuff.

We have a great start in Collins. He is my starting SS next season, (pencilled in) and now we need to focus on those corners. They dont come cheap, and BB the GM does not place the $$$ value on that than others do. Its his Achilles heel.

 

[gomezcat]

The other thing that struck me about that D is just how intelligent they are as a bunch. They diagnose plays very quickly, and they react aggressively but not overly so. When they line guys up for big hits, getting the guy is the primary thing. In a nutshell, they don't miss tackles. Their defence against quick drops and screens was quite phenomenal.
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[anderson]

The other thing Carrol did right was find a bunch of secondary gems in the Tom Brady part of the draft.

I think that's going to be the harder part to emulate.

 

[Darth Despot]

I agree that the Pats D often seems passive and that is apparently how Bill prefers them to play and it's frustrating to watch them let opposing QBs get their rhythm when just about all of us want to see a more dominant, aggressive style. It's Bill, imo and not the personnel

I suppose that Seattle's performance means that any tall defensive backs coming out will get a longer look and teams will try to imitate the superb job they did drafting that backfield, but good luck to anybody trying to find a whole group of guys that big that can play like Sherman, Chancellor, etc.

Their scheme is excellent, they play a complementary style with great zone discipline and always seem to double at the right time. They get good pressure from a variety of players and are about as good a D as you will ever see. They were flawless yesterday and all you can do is call them daddy and hope contracts, coach poaching and injuries will derail them before they become unbeatable for the next few years.

It's hard for a Patriots fan to see how much better they are than we are at present and I'm damn glad it wasn't us out there getting eviscerated like Denver did last night. They would have killed us. It's a blessing that we didn't have to deal with that.

We've got serious work to do because they set the bar last night.

It pains me to admit it, but I was thinking the same thing last night.

 

[chevss454]

For perspective, how many Patriot defensive players do you think would start for Seattle's base D?

VW isn't Carroll's kind of mobile DT. He'd get some short yardage snaps.

Chandler Jones would be behind both Chris Clemons, who was probably Seattle's best defensive player last night, and Cliff Avril.

Mayo isn't fast enough to compete w/ Bruce Irvin or Malcolm Smith.

Jaime Collins would be a starter in the making at either OLB or SS.

McCourty would be 3rd string behind Kam Chancellor and Earl Thomas.

Talib would be a nickel CB.

Hightower is not replacing Bobby Wagner at MLB.


So my answer is Jaime Collins but not for 2-3 years.

 

[grog]

Maybe all Pats fans will begin to see the coaching turnover this year as an opportunity to regain some fire and brimstone for the entire team.

I'm all for a game changing weapon for Brady still but the D & the DT position in particular just went up 2 notches for me. I wouldn't mind a bit if BB went DT or DT/DE with 2 high picks as long as he chooses mobile pass rushers. This isn't a game for fatties at DT anymore, imo, bc of the way the game has evolved. Whether it's a Kaep type at QB or a pocket passer, DTs have to be mobile and aware. Brick walls at DT have become role players at the goal line and in short distance situations. (Btw, I cringe every time I think BB just missed out on Red Bryant 2 yrs ago.)

Carroll said last night in a post game interview that he patterned his D after the great Lombardi Ds at GB that won so many championships. Stout mobile DL, active athletic linebackers, and intimidating DBs with emphasis at the DL and DB positions. All with attitude (Nitschke came to mind immediately).



Looks like he hit his mark dead center.

I heard something like 24 players on the Seahawks roster were UDFA. That seems like a lot and it speaks volumes on their scouting. That probably goes back to Carroll and his knowledge of the college game/players. Yeah we can spend high picks on DT/DE, but that isn't necessarily the end all, be all. We need to keep finding those diamonds int he rough.

 

[Defsoul]

For perspective, how many Patriot defensive players do you think would start for Seattle's base D?

VW isn't Carroll's kind of mobile DT. He'd get some short yardage snaps.

I disagree. Brandon Mebane is cast in the same mold as Wilfork. A short, stocky nose tackle who lines up directly over the center and is asked to two gap. He played 51% of all regular season snaps. Only three other d-linemen of the Seahawks played more snap (Michael Bennett leads with 58%). I think Wilfork could give Mebane a run for his money.

Chandler Jones would be behind both Chris Clemons, who was probably Seattle's best defensive player last night, and Cliff Avril.

Yes, it's hard to see Jones start over Clemons and Avril.

Mayo isn't fast enough to compete w/ Bruce Irvin or Malcolm Smith

Both are totally different players than Mayo. Irvin is an undersized defensive end who was moved to SLB. He is a poor man's Von Miller. Smith a strong safety playing linebacker. I think Mayo could get playing time on early downs, but they'd probably sub him out on passing downs...

Jaime Collins would be a starter in the making at either OLB or SS.

Agree.

McCourty would be 3rd string behind Kam Chancellor and Earl Thomas.

Yes, he is not starting over Earl Thomas and he is too small to play Chancellor's role. McCourty might have a shot as their nickelback.

Talib would be a nickel CB.

I think he would start over Brandon Maxwell.

Hightower is not replacing Bobby Wagner at MLB.

Totally agree.

 

[chevss454]

I disagree. Brandon Mebane is cast in the same mold as Wilfork. A short, stocky nose tackle who lines up directly over the center and is asked to two gap. He played 51% of all regular season snaps. Only three other d-linemen of the Seahawks played more snap (Michael Bennett leads with 58%). I think Wilfork could give Mebane a run for his money.

Imo, the VW of 2-3 yrs ago would give Mebane competition but not the recent (and fatter) VW version at age 33.

Talib's swag might reach full potential playing next to Sherman. Talib might get starts over Maxwell but he'd have to stay 100% healthy for an entire year.

 

[chevss454]

PFF has Maxwell ranked #13 for CBs for the year with a +9.3 score.

Talib is ranked #58 with a -0.3 score. Talib has a lot of ground to make up to compete with Maxwell.

Btw, Chris Clemons was PFF's highest rated defensive player for the Seahawks in the SB. I thought he had a great game.

 

[chevss454]

I disagree. Brandon Mebane is cast in the same mold as Wilfork. A short, stocky nose tackle who lines up directly over the center and is asked to two gap. He played 51% of all regular season snaps. Only three other d-linemen of the Seahawks played more snap (Michael Bennett leads with 58%). I think Wilfork could give Mebane a run for his money.

Imo, the VW of 2-3 yrs ago would give Mebane competition but not the recent (and fatter) VW version at age 33.

Followup on VW vs Mebane.

Mebane played only about 18% of his snaps as a 2 gapping NT. The bulk of his snaps came as a 1 gapping DT.

(94 snaps at NT
251 at DRT
172 at DLT
23 at DE)

He is PFF's #3 rated DT this year and PFF considers him the Seahawks best overall DL. Mebane had 32 QB pressures this year. VW can't compete and win over him the way Carroll uses him.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/01/30/super-bowl-profile-brandon-mebane/

 

[Defsoul]

PFF has Maxwell ranked #13 for CBs for the year with a +9.3 score.

Talib is ranked #58 with a -0.3 score. Talib has a lot of ground to make up to compete with Maxwell.

Btw, Chris Clemons was PFF's highest rated defensive player for the Seahawks in the SB. I thought he had a great game.

I was suprised to see Talib ranked so low when I recently looked up the grades of NE CBs. I guess his play must have slipped considerably over the course of the season.

 

[BradyGirl]

The media will be lavishing praise on Seattle's D, and rightly so. They did a great job, but shouldn't anyone emulating them have a good supply of PEDs?

The PED suspensions were barely mentioned for two weeks. Can you imagine if BB's players has been suspended for PED use that often?

I loved seeing Pete win. I thought he was treated shabbily here at times. And he left USC just ahead of the posse and now has PED suspensions up-and-down. So? Just like I thought Spygate was overblown, because ALL NFL COACHES CHEAT! They call it 'gaining an edge', but in this hyper-competitive league, who doesn't (except Saint Dungy and he lets his GM do the dirty work)?

Would the Seattle D be quite as strong and fast without PEDs? Remember all the oohing and aahing over the home run chase between Maguire and Sosa in baseball, and now we know why.

Just interesting that none of the media pointed out that this D was the most suspended this season. Then again, the Broncos were right behind them and that didn't help.

 

[dchester]

I was reading through some Senior Bowl practice notes yesterday and came across this description of DT Caraun Reid (6021/310, Princeton): "He plays with violence and bad intentions."

To me, that perfectly describes the whole Seahawks defense and, really, all the other great defenses we've seen. And it's what the Pats' defense lacks. The Pats' defense by comparison seems very calm and methodical. Aside from Spikes and a bit from Talib, they just never seem to have any attitude or aggressiveness. I mean, there's pretty close to enough talent out there on the field to get the job done now, but it's as if they're in "Prevent" all the time.

And that's on the coaches. Seems to me they need to change their approach.

I don't think it's the approach, as much as that Seattle's defense is simply more talented than the Patriots D. How many of our starters would start in Seattle? Not too many. Their front 7 got pressure on Manning, while ours barely got him to yawn.

Their secondary covered better and tackled better than ours. Pete did a better job of shopping for the groceries.